The bastards did it!

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by FYI, Jun 27, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It's the Corporate Records Request and if you click on the tab you will see the hoops you need to jump through to get to it.
     
  2. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Seems to me you better print out several forms and have them handy, because once you begin to read one document I'm sure that will require the need of reviewing other documents! It will be a long drawn out maze of paperwork, and confusion chasing your tail until you finally just give up!
     
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Then of course is this statement from the form itself: "Your request must be made in good faith and for a proper purpose. Please provide an itemized statement of the specific records requested and the specific purpose of your request. The records must be directly connected with your purpose."

    There you go, nothing nefarious or sinister better be going on or you will be denied.
     
  4. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Somewhere I saw mention of a 3-4 million expense for a new golf maintenance building.

    Isn't that kind of expenditure supposed to be brought before the MEMBERS?

    Where are the plans for this building?

    What type of construction is being employed?

    Wood stick framing, metal stick framing or some other medium?

    What is included in this building?

    What is the square footage of this building going to be as opposed to the standing building?

    How many bids were requested and accepted for this building?

    Did anyone consider a block (cinder block) building?

    In today's prices for lumber, I'd bet that a block building would be cheaper.

    Who designed this building?

    Why do we need a new maintenance building?

    Does anyone ask questions anymore or just accept what the board says?

    3-4 million dollars for a maintenance building seems awful extravagant.

    What was the cost of the antique car building on grand? Remember, I believe it was built from block,
    but the equipment on the inside probably cost more than the structure.

    Who audits this kind of stuff?
     
  5. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I was told by somebody who actually did do diligence and received quotes from fabricators of metal buildings that a metal building would have been more than 1 million dollars cheaper, including certain extras that would not be provided in a brick and mortar building, than the building they eventually built.

    But let's not get off track. That'll be a fight for another day....Show-Up Monday at Sundial at 9 a.m. You're not gonna want to miss the show!
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I agree with FYI, for right now our eye has to be towards the meeting Monday Sept 13 at 9 am at the Sun Dial Auditorium.

    As far as your questions SCR; i can't begin to answer them all. That said, there is a three person bid committee from the board that reviews the bids that come in. Not sure who is on it this year. The good news is the RCSC finally after years of just sticking a management person to oversee the buildings, they finally hired a gentleman with building experience and the knowledge to understand what is going on. Whether the board listens to him is another story i don't know the answer to.

    For whatever reason, the board/management have stayed away from non-traditional buildings (ie prefabricated). Don't know if block would be cheaper than stick built but it would seem to me a board should look at all options. 4 million for a golf course equipment building is outrageous. The damned building is behind a walled area that no one sees. The building there is a dump and has been for years. Again, i have no idea if it needs to be done immediately or in two years. It's just their timing sucks.

    Finally, i too am curious what the final costs were on the Grand Ave Center?
     
  7. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Having worked (currently) in the construction trade, I have learned that a block construction is much cheaper then traditional framing.
    However, the components put into the structure are another story. If I have square footage of the proposed building I can probably get estimates of what it would cost for a block building.
    I think I can safely say that a block structure would not be 3 to 4 million dollars.

    We need much more information on the proposals presented so far.

    Will this expenditure be brought before the members?

    On another topic, I asked WHO counts heads at board meeting?
     
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    1). They will read it as it is on the agenda, you as a member have no right to vote on it. You can speak to it.
    2). No one counts them, at least as a regular course of action. It doesn't matter is there's 20, 200 or 2000 in attendance other than the larger the number, the better the board will understand the anger. The only time the membership count matters is at a Membership meeting when a quorum is required. Normally they are in January or February but due to the pandemic it didn't happen. The RCSC placed it on the directors calendars for October 18th this year and will be making a motion to be able to not have an annual meeting because of an emergency situation. That motion you can speak to before they vote to pass it but you need to sign up to speak when you come in to the meeting at a back table. There will be sign up sheets on motions to be read.
     
  9. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Again I will say that if they accept members at a board meeting that may have (and I stress May) have 50 or more people in attendance, they can have a members meeting without reservations.

    the only reason to cancel a members meeting is that they (the RCSC) hopes that people will forget before a member meetings is finally scheduled.

    I’ll say again there is no reason to wait for a members meeting. Any topic can be brought up at a board meeting when they open the floor. DON’T wait for a me,bets meeting to express your disgust with the current board.
    SHOW UP AT THE SEPTEMBER BOARD meeting and vocalize your disgust with the board.

    Social distancing will definitely limit the number of attendees at the board meeting.
    Therefore, estimates of number of occupancy will be diminished dramatically thus limiting the length of the board meeting.
    I suspect the meeting will be adjourned prematurely because the board will not want to listen to all the MEMBERS who wish to speak.

    Someone probably 2 people (one from RCSC and one from the MEMBERS ) should be charged to count heads.
    Counting by pencil and paper is antiquated at best. Counting by someone using a clicker is also antiquated.

    Head counting should be done by digital and electronic methods. The LRPC recommended an electronic digital accounting system many months ago and it has gone nowhere. Why? Someone doesn’t want that kind of data collected.
    Why? It it invalidate everything the board expressed as their accounting of GOLF statistics, CLUB satirist is, and any statistic that would go in favor of the MEMBERS.
     
  10. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Here's something I've just thought about when they talk about a conflict of interest!!!!

    How come a board member who is on the board of a Club must resign their position on that Club if they serve on the RCSC board, but it's okay for them to Chair and Co-Chair a Standing Committee that they have personal interests in?

    Nothing personal here but should Sheila Rooney Chair the Finance, Audit and Budget Committee when she's the boards Treasurer? Who better to cook the books than somebody who Chairs the Committee and want things to always look good? (No accusations here, just trying to make a point!)

    Nothing personal but should Mike Ege Chair the Technology Committee when he has a personal interest in seeing that the new video presentation "In Focus" is successful?(No accusations here either, just trying to make a point!)

    Get my point? How can any member of the board actually totally divorce themselves from any sort of personal interest within RCSC? And who wants a board member who has no idea what the heck goes on within the various Clubs?

    When does simply doing your job turn into a conflict of interest?

    Instead of changing the Bylaws perhaps the Board should just change THEIR definition/perception of Conflict of Interest??????
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
    eyesopen likes this.
  11. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    80A6F2DE-93C9-4B44-8D5E-767BA03123A0.jpeg Agree, FYI, Conflict of Interest needs to be better defined and applied consistently and equitably.

    Karen McAdam was told in an email from Sue Wilson, RCSC board president that she was removed because she was “incapable of performing her duties on the board.”

    Just what was McAdam incapable of doing?
    Bowing to the existing board members!
     
    BPearson likes this.
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    What can i say? 15,000 plus reads, 3 times what any other thread has gotten!

    Nothing left to say other than show up Monday September 13 at 9 am at the Sun Dial Rec Center. See for your self what this board thinks about you...the owner of this community and of the RCSC.
     
    OneDayAtATime likes this.
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just a reminder, a gentle prod. This morning, 9 am at the Sun Dial Auditorium. See for yourself and then you judge.
     
  14. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    First...I've got to say that I am extremely disappointed in today's turnout at the board meeting. How many did we get? Probably about 150 give or take!

    For those who didn't attend, the meeting lasted maybe 7-8 minutes before the chair shut the meeting down. The meeting was called to order, we did the pledge of allegiance, Sue Wilson swore-in the retread replacement board member, then made up a half-ass excuse and gaveled the meeting adjourned!!!!

    There were 2 plain clothed members of the sheriffs department in attendance ready, willing, and under instructions to arrest anybody who displayed a sign during the meeting!

    I just don't understand why the board is acting this way!?!?!? Today certainly would have been a better meeting to listen to the Members concerns than it will be at the next meeting! I suspect that once word gets out at just how bad the board reacted today, there will be 3 times as many Members there at the Sept. 30th meeting?

    Just what is it that they don't want to hear? I think the truth is; they screwed-up and they know they screwed-up and they haven't got a good or legitimate answer to some of pointed questions that were surely to be asked.

    To be continued...
     
    CMartinez likes this.
  15. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Didn't want to be the first to post my disappointment with today's proceedings or lack there of at the board meeting.

    I arrived at 09:06 and the board was already gone. I left at 09:11
    At the front of the room were I guess according to FYI, two members of the sheriffs department.
    Could not hear what they were saying, because I was at the back of the room. Moved forward to the last row of chairs and still couldn't hear what was being said.
    I did hear the crowd respond a few times with a loud NO.

    As for the crowd size, I would guess less than 100 people in attendance which is remarkable considering the number of reads this thread has generated.
    I guess the members really don't care what is going on and are willing to accept anything the board does.

    I would expect the boards behavior to continue to be the same as today going forward.
    They want no member participation.
    They don't want to hear from the members.
    They have shown their belligerence to the members.
    They have shown they are now afraid of the members.
    I expect to see rent-a-cops at future meetings.
    They will find excuse after excuse for shorter and shorter meetings.

    The board has made it abundantly clear that there will be no member participation.

    Things are not going to get better.

    We can have this group, facebook, and any number of new groups, but the members have made it abundantly clear they don't care.

    I'll probably get a lot of flack on this but the above is my opinion and I have a right to express it.
     
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I have a pretty simple philosophy about life FYI: "Dumb people do dumb things." To be clear, we all make mistakes, errors in judgements or just bad choices. Lord knows, i've made my share over the years. No, i'm talking about just plain dumb illogical actions taken by people who aren't smart enough to know right from wrong. People who are just so cavalier and arrogant they can't possibly be wrong.

    All of which brings me to today's travesty. They started off months back firing Karen when there was no need to. She was simply a no vote that was always going to be in the minority; at least until they found a second pickleball venue, one that was south of Grand Ave. The simple reality was 20 courts for the population of Sun City was wrong and Karen made the mistake of pointing that out to them. She provided a mountain of information about similar age restricted communities having more courts per capita (even with 27) than we did, and that was before they closed the MV courts. Ouch, made them look bad.

    They knew today was a time to face the music, answer the questions and man-up to their actions. Of course they compounded it with an agenda that was in your face crazy, but that kind of fits my point doesn't it; "dumb people do dumb things." As FYI pointed out, the crowd could have been bigger, but to be sure, there were more people there than they anticipated. I guess it threw them. They ran out of agendas.

    They did also, as FYI pointed out, have off-duty officers there. In fairness, they were pleasant to a fault and the last thing they wanted was any kind of confrontation. When i walked in, for some reason they thought i had orchestrated the signs being in the room. I didn't but told them they knew as well as i did the signs were simply people exercising their right to free speech (i've been down this road a time or two). When they told me they had instructions from the president to arrest anyone holding up a sign i suggested that might be a bad mistake. Nothing in our documents make signs illegal.

    They continued to work with those behind the signs and all but one person got the message. I didn't see it, but a woman insisted there was a single sign held aloft while the new board member was sworn in. As soon as that was done, the board president Sue Wilson pounded the table with her gavel and said the meeting was over, done, kaput. They immediately marched off the stage and all but one board member slipped out the back door. Like i said; "Dumb people do dumb things."

    The crowd was stunned, people were angry and frustrated. We spent the next hour talking amongst the crowd. It was casual and down to earth. To Bill Cook and Jan's credit they stayed and tried to answer questions. In my opinion it was a good exchange. Frankly, it was the kind of discussion that should have been held by and with the board. I learned long ago when there is a problem you face it head on, not run from it. They ran from it.

    From the boards perspective, that was the worst thing they could have done...it will only insure far more people at the next meeting. Will we face the same kind of deal? Don't know, we'll see. The one thing we know for sure is it will be the front page story in the Independent next week. Bigger question: How will it look when they post it on line?

    One last thought and FYI you might want to jump in here: Closing the meeting is an action included in Robert's Rules of Order and as a friend suggested, it takes a motion by the directors' not an independent action by the president?
     
  17. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I suspect it was a matter of unanimous consent? I'm sure they had the whole thing planned long before the board meeting.
    What I'm concerned about is; did they go off and hold a special session in the boardroom at Lakeview (illegally) and pass those agenda items? No more Robert's Rules and no Membership meeting this year?
     
  18. 3cavkings

    3cavkings New Member

    Bill, love this tagline of yours:
    Sun City=Community before corporation, people before politics.
     
  19. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    BP - "but to be sure, there were more people there than they anticipated" Really? They had more chairs set than they have ever had and the ones that were filled with people were mostly on one side. The only way there will ever be an accurate count of attendees is if members with an old fashioned clicker stand at the entrance doors to the auditorium and count heads as they enter.
    Or, have someone physically count bodies. The board will not want you to know the true number of attendees, because it may and I stress may, make them look bad. I doubt they have a real concern there as meeting attendance has been extremely low over the past 15 years. Anybody care to guess how many bodies showed up for the board meetings over the last 15 years?
    The incoming GM will not be any different than our current GM so please do not expect things to change there.
    By the way, was it legal for the attendees to hold a meeting in RCSC facilities once the meeting was adjourned?

    FYI - I believe you are exactly right. The board had today's actions planned in advance. Meaning, that the directors had already made and approved the motion to adjourn as quickly as possible thus not being against RRO. The board planned their actions well in advance of today's meeting and they are probably planning the next meeting's actions (if there is one).
    There will probably be a motion at that meeting to ban all signs at any RCSC facility or meeting.


    We probably will never know what happened after they adjourned.

    I doubt seriously that there will be any more than a handful of extra people showing up at the Sept 30th meeting. Well, maybe a few more rent-a-cops.
    The number of reads for this thread is not an indication that 15,000 different people have read the thread. It only means that the thread was read 15,000 times probably by the same people rereading the thread over and over within a certain time frame..

    As for the member meeting I don't remember seeing any notification anywhere that there was to be a meeting.
     
  20. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Further clarification, these are the only reasons the Chair can adjourn the meeting without a vote and without unanimous consent:
    • When the assembly has previously established a time for adjournment and that time is reached.
    • When the assembly has completed its full order of business and, when the chair asks if there is any further business, no member responds.
    • When there is an emergency (such as a fire) and it would endanger the members' safety to take the time for a motion and vote.
    There was no previous time set for adjournment on the agenda.

    The order of business was not completed.

    There was no emergency!

    So the Chair did not have the authority to unilaterally adjourn the meeting.
     
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