Somebody please tell me it ain't so...

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Not to be argumentative Tom, but that's a pile of happy horseshit. The trial had nothing to do with Title 33 and all about how many millions of dollars the law firm could extract from the RCSC. And to that end, most of us were smart enough to know We are the RCSC, We are Sun City and We were the ones that would have paid for the settlement. Not trying to be unkind, but save your sanctimonious crap for someone else. You know damn good and well why the RCSC rewrote the quorum language that started us down the slippery slope.

    IC is spot on, We (the community) could have stopped it, but not with a lawsuit with million dollar price tags hanging all over it. I already acknowledged my "sins," just wonder how many of the brave souls who sued will recognize the role they played in pushing the peanut down the road? Because from my vantage point and your response it appears you see no problem with us suing ourselves. Just saying eh.
     
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  2. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I toyed with deleting or modifying my response; i usually try not to be that harsh. In the end, it was how i felt as i read Tom's comments. During the hearing i was contacted by both Tom and ARS and asked to appear. Part of what i did for a living was exactly that kind of work; testifying in front of politicians. I have a fairly strong understanding historically of Sun City and could have added value to the arguments regarding Sun City falling under Title 33. I weighed the options, in the end, i understood the end game was never T33. Never.

    Trial lawyers take cases on a contingency basis (for the most part) to extract a large settlement. If you read any of the documents attached to the case, the attorneys wanted the courts to award massive settlements in part based on PIF expenditures and collections. At some point they argued they should not have been allowed. Absolute craziness. PIF saved Sun City from extinction and being reduced to a second class community. I wanted no part of helping that happen.

    Over the years i have made it abundantly clear i felt Sun City would be better served functioning under T 33. It would have forced the RCSC to operate in a more transparent way. Sun City West converted to it when facing the same legal struggles in the early 2000's. It has some minor costs attached, but the effort to involve the community more openly is a good thing, not a bad thing. Unfortunately neither side in Sun City had any interest in finding common ground. It was always going to come down to a battle of wills and egos.

    One could argue about whether "fighting the good fight" is right or wrong, but in the end one has to somewhere, somehow assess the cost of winning/losing. Sun City/We spent near on 20 years struggling with this. We watched as We spent small (hell maybe large) fortunes to keep from having to become more transparent. We watched as community documents were rewritten to "save us" from the evil clutches of those trying to "ruin" Sun City. In the end, We all need ask ourselves was the cost of "winning" worth it?
     
  3. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    But WE didn't. That's water over the dam now. WE can only regain our relevance if a couple thousand of us show up at a members meeting and vote to take back what was ours. Sadly, most of SC it too busy not caring enough to even pay attention or discover they don't actually have any rights in how/what the RCSC is/becomes.
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It ain't happening any time soon IC. Most people are happy living here. They have no connection to the past, to what it took to build it, to the sacrifices people made to keep it from failing. Yesterdays news brother. But is it?

    What we know about Sun City is we are constantly evolving. There will always be ebbs and flows to what matters. There will come a point where the GM leaves and direction will be up for grabs. I've watched Sun City West embrace a broader construct of community involvement since the new GM came in. Funny thing is, the old one was pretty progressive, but the new guy seems even more so committed. Building a stronger sense of community only happens when the community is actually involved. Pretending they matter quickly becomes evident based on what you do, not what you say.

    When i ran for the board, there were 3 openings and 3 candidates. When i put out my election materials, i produced a 4 page newspaper. Pure overkill, but i wanted card members to see my vision for a better Sun City. It was never going to happen because the GM and most of the board were all in lockstep. Golf was the agenda item, everything else was just in the way. My point here is simple; the other way life in Sun City can change is if the board actually takes a leadership role rather than a rubber stamp role. Highly unlikely, but who knows? Maybe some day eh?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  5. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It will be interesting to see what comes out of the "emergency executive session" by the board following last Thursday's meeting. There's little doubt the board was caught off guard by the revelation card-holders guests were being charged a punch to walk to the top of the "mountain." It certainly didn't look like any of them were in awe of the asst gm's comments that it was just like walking the track at Marinnette or Fairway. Of course there also was the matter of the board member who is resigning due to her moving from her home to Royal Oak., so perhaps that was what they wanted to talk about. Time will tell eh?
     
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  6. carptrash

    carptrash Active Member

    We at the dog park are concerned that the ticket punch mania might be applied to us too. The grandkids are in town with little Fufu and you go to the dog park and . ............ $$$$$ to get in?
     
  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Goodness carp, don't even mention it. Sadly, this has now become a topic on Nextdoor, and the buzz is spreading across Sun City. It's making the RCSC look cheap. Hopefully the board will take action and reverse managements decision. I had hoped i would see it as an agenda item for next Monday, but alas, it wasn't listed. We'll see eh?
     
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  8. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    "It's making the RCSC look cheap" as it should. There would be no reason to do this unless you are trying to be trite and cheap. The rules say that "guests" shall pay no fee. Isn't "guests" the issue here. Again, the management team going against our bylaws for their benefit.
     
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  9. carptrash

    carptrash Active Member

    A prediction:
    The BoD: No, no we never even discussed doing something like that.
    Management: Actually that is no longer a BoD decision, we'll discuss it at our next Management meeting.
     
  10. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    It was odd that when the gentleman asked the question regarding paying to walk to the top of the mountain there were blank stares from the BOD and Chris Herring didn't stand up and volunteer an answer. I'm glad that Chris was pressured to give an explanation. The cardholder should be required to sign in at the monitor and be responsible for his/her guests. Any non-cardholder visitors would hand over their driver's license to the monitor upon entering and held until they return to the monitor after making the climb. Hope this can be worked out to not look so bad in the eyes of those looking to buy in Sun City.
     
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  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Sad, but unfortunately the state we currently find ourselves in. How the hell did we ever get to this point?

    Come on guys fix this mess, do us proud.
     
  12. carptrash

    carptrash Active Member

    And making the BoD look as if they were clueless. Wait, were they clueless?
     
  13. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    The BOD is no longer in the loop when it comes to making decision for Sun City. Forget them they are useless. The GM will take care of running Sun city.
    The Executive session called for at the last board meeting is very telling. They were cvaught off guard and are probably wondering how the charge for guests walking Meeker mountain ever came into existence. The BOD needs to take a long look at themselves and decide if they are relevant any longer.
     
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  14. carptrash

    carptrash Active Member

    It is possible that, like vampires, they can't see themselves in mirrors.
     
  15. True that, mos def.
     
  16. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Anyone who can interpret the concise meaning of BP12 wrt guests, visitors, punch cards, and passes must be a mind reader. Whomever wrote that section had be a lawyer 'cause it's not in plain English, at least not to me. What I think it says is visitors (non-members) wishing to evaluate the facility should give the monitor their driver's license at checkin and no fee is charged; if the visitor, however, intends to participate/use the facility there is a charge. So, inquiring minds want to know -- was the person walking up the trail evaluating it? Or, were they actually using it. The whole thing is absurd.

    The concept of charging my visitors/guests a nuisance charge to use the facilities I pay for is embarrassing to me as member. The Corp. should be ashamed of themselves for doing it. And the angry old tightwads who always start jawing about "why should outsiders be allowed to use what WE pay for" can just stuff it. They're our guests, that's why! It's the civil thing to do. It's the right thing to do!

    I understand, there needs to be some controls to stop potential abuses. But do it some other easy to manage way. Punch cards, nuisance fees, etc. give the community a bad name, discourages members and their visitors, and drive clubs insane with training their board & monitors to comply with the rules, filing reports, etc. I'll bet some clubs probably haven't collected a fee in years and couldn't find their punch if they had to. Some club boards have a large turnover every year, hundreds of manhours a year spent training members for no reason. And, AFAIK the guest fee process wasn't even mentioned this year at Club Officer Training -- so apparently the Corporation must not really care all that much? Time to can the whole process is what most Corporations would decide.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
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  17. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    02/10/2020


    The Absurdity of it All.


    We are supposed to have a board of directors which lead the management team into what direction the community should go. Instead, the management team has made a decision to charge people to utilize Lakeview Lake overview, and the BOD, sits there stymied!

    This isn’t rocket science, this isn’t magic, it just requires the BOD to their jobs and put an end to this asinine charge to use the lake walkway. I know there are some who are happy to acquiesce all of their power to the GM. That being said, why do we need a board anymore?

    You folks need to get some backbone and put a stop this lunacy as soon as possible. You people are killing home sales just because of the way you are handling this issue. Sun City looks cheap and petty, and I for one, have to agree.


    Carole Martinez

    Letter sent today to the Independent. This is what one man was trying to say but walked away from the microphone before completing this thought.
     
  18. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    A couple of things I heard at the meeting stood out for me.

    1. They GM wants consistency in implementing Board policies/BY Laws. That being the case, there must also be a charge for Visitors/Guests to ANY rec center. Just by setting foot inside ANY Sun City facility, Visitors/Guests are using the facilities. If they aren't charged there they should not be charged at the mountain.

    2. Mr. Schroeder specifically said "The board makes policy and the GM implements it" That has not been the case in many instances.

    3. In response to a question early in the meeting it was stated that the BOD does not hold any work sessions. That being the case, when does the BOD plan on discussing the issue of visitors being charged a fee for using RCSC facilities? They could not or would not commit themselves to making a motion to bring the issue up so one can only surmise that there will be some kind of work session to discuss the issue.

    4. The BOD is very non-committal at the meetings. So, if they can't discuss issues brought up by the members at the meeting, when do they discuss them?
     
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  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just for shirts and giggles i went to the RCSC website and read the articles of incorporation (i know, very sick on my part). Know how many times management was mentioned in them? Try none. The A of I are the base for every other document written.

    Ben Roloff said it at the meeting, the board could fix this in the blink of an eye. It’s that simple. The GM works for them; end of story. No more discussion, no more hemming and hawing, just get it done. For 50 years the GM had no authority other than running the day to day operations.

    It gets worse though. The community had standing over the board. They could override/veto their decisions if enough card holders would step forward. The documents were written that way to insure there would be no abuse of power. Tragically, the GM elected to rewrite board policies and by-laws that enhanced management authority, diminish the role of us living here and boards simply went along with it.

    Even with that said, the decision to charge card holders a punch to walk the mountain is the board’s given right to change, not the gm’s. She works for them, they allegedly work for us.
     
  20. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    An unnamed source reportedly overheard management talking to a local politician after the Board meeting....
    As they walked away the source thought they heard one of them say they were heading downtown for a legislative committee meeting. The other headed toward the Corporate office.
     

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