It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Bill, am I missing something? Does the GM make this decision? It seems to me that because this decision impacts the budget this change is a board decision and one that should have an open debate. Was there another discussion at a Board meeting after the increase was proposed, or did the Board just turn it over for management to decide?

It's frustrating to watch this group, which is an understatement. It seems there is seldom, if ever, serious discussion or debate about an issue. Which leads me to believe that a small group discusses their ideas, makes a plan, and decisions are made before a meeting is ever called to order. I've never been part of a group that operates this way.

 

If you watch the video of the June board meeting you will hear Allan ask Bill Cook if there is any precedent for the board to make these kinds of decisions. I had all i could do from screaming out loud, "how the hell would he know about precedent?" Of course that didn't stop the newly minted expert from answering, "absolutely." My God, the arrogance of those who know nothing about our history and how it worked.

The choices made to allow non residents full play passes and full access belong to the community, the golf advisory committee and the board. Not the hired help.

 

Thanks. I just thought this decision came about quickly. And things don't seem to happen that fast at RCSC. Unless....

 

It did. In fact, if you watch the May report given regarding golf, management was recommending the increase for the end of the year. Director Collin's motion pushed them to try and save face and in June they claimed they would enact the increase when they returned from summer break.

Once the shit hit the fan and golfers were speaking out and were angry, they shoved it through in July. The problem is, the increase will do nothing to stop the abuse (yes, i said abuse) of the memberships right to use our amenities ahead of somebody living outside our walls. They should have no rights ever before the members. NEVER.

Somebody from golf best prepare the president for the Sept board meeting. Being able to explain the small group pre-booking and how non-residents can buy their way into jumping the line on the members ability to book tee times rather than just entering the lottery should be a hoot and a half. My guess is they are clueless on how it works and even more so they are doing that.

The reality of where we are is with every full play non-resident pass that is sold, the RCSC management has insured we are stuck with them having equal or better access to prime tee times than most of the community. Obviously the board is just fine with that outcome. Revenue or whatever.

 

Just out of curiosity,
What would happen if NO non-resident was allowed to play?
Or if a non-resident was only allowed to play with a resident using a paid guest card each time????

 

There would be a substantial loss of revenue if no non-residents could play our courses. The anger isn't from/towards those who come in, book open tee times and pay more than residents. This whole golf full play non-resident pass crap went sideways as the number of sales went from 50 to more than 150 buyers. When the pandemic hit they allowed the outsiders to access tee times through the web portal and they allowed those same outsiders to join groups of 30 or more and pre-book tee times with a small extra fee. The revenue from outside play that is paying the full rate is 3 times more than those that buy the pass.

 

Bill, sorry, but you do tend to get "wordy".
"Example:
"There would be a substantial loss of revenue if no non-residents could play our courses."
etc., etc, and so forth (isn't that a quote from someplace).

Does Sun City rely on funds from outside golfers? Please answer Yes or No.

I pay my annual fee and rarely use facilities WITHOUT complaining
as do many others.

 

Bill, sorry, but you do tend to get "wordy".
"Example:
"There would be a substantial loss of revenue if no non-residents could play our courses."
etc., etc, and so forth (isn't that a quote from someplace).
From me.
Does Sun City rely on funds from outside golfers? Please answer Yes or No.
Yes.
I pay my annual fee and rarely use facilities WITHOUT complaining
as do many others.
Good.

 

If i told you there were stories from back in the 80's where Sun City residents formed a group to stop the "giveaway" of our community, would you be surprised? The year was 1983 and the board was facing a sudden spurt of growth from developers buying open land and building high density condominium/apartment complex's and continuing care options. A board member suggested a $200 per living unit charge paid to the Rec Centers for accessing Sun City amenities. Other board members suggested $2000; this was long before PIF.

The idea that accessing our rec centers and golf courses so cheaply was viewed with disdain. An organization was formed called "the Committee to Stop the Giveaway of the Recreation Centers." Working in concert with the board, they helped arrive at fee of $1,570 per new unit. In 1984, the RCSC conducted a mail-in-ballot with 27,052 members voting for the charge, 5,280 against it. Think about that for a moment, more than 32,000 votes.

Over the years, there's been any number of times when Sun City residents complained to the Del E Webb Corporation (DEVCO) about the golf courses being clogged by outsiders. It started in the first couple of years when there were only two courses, North and South. The simple reality was, the company was using outside play on "their" courses to sell homes. Once the Play and Stay vacation packages became a thing, two rounds of golf was included with the week long visit.

We know it wasn't until 1975 when the potential sale of the golf courses to the RCSC took place. Even that was an 18 month agreement, with the opportunity for the RCSC to cancel it if they felt owning them was too expensive. The kicker to the agreement was this; by the time the RCSC completed the trial period, all outside play was to have ended.The RCSC wanted the golf courses to be solely for the membership.

The other provisions in the purchase agreement included the courses should remain golf courses and that golf should be revenue neutral. All three of these details were widely promoted within the community and newspapers because they (the RCSC) wanted the members to buy-in fully with the ownership of the golf courses. Had the RCSC not bought them, it was clear DEVCO would sell them to someone, anyone willing to pay them to take them off their hands. They weren't in the business of running amenities. They were contractors.

Building the golf courses was critical to selling and marketing Sun City. Owning the golf courses was essential to the RCSC to continuing the promise of a "new active way of life." I've always understood this. What i never understood was why the RCSC would or should be able to hide the details from the membership. We've heard the mantra from the board, data, data data. It should matter. Now that we know, it matters even more.

As peg noted above, i write a lot, too much in her opinion. As i write all of this, i wonder how many of you know much or even any of this history? To me, history matters. Back in the day, members of the RCSC reacted angrily when the board decided to give away our assets too cheaply. I tried to explain to peg, Sun City needs outside revenue to subsidize golf. Over time we came to the conclusion selling open tee times at fair market rates made sense. It still does today.

What never made sense, what always angered those of us living in Sun City was non-residents being allowed to use of OUR amenities, and especially at less money than what a member was paying. Historically this was considered a travesty. As a practical matter, it still should be.

Stop the freaking giveaway.

 

Does a non-resident have to be 55 or older to play golf in SC?
Yes - No
Is a non-resident limited as to how much golf they can play in SC?
Yes - No

 

That is totally UNACCEPTABLE.
But there does not seem to be anything us LEGAL Residents can do about it.
Is there a reason why we even have a Board.

 

Actually peg, there is. Keep reading and asking questions like you just did. Stay aware and involved. And during the upcoming Board elections, pay special attention to which Board Members think the status quo is completely ACCEPTABLE. There are Board Members who believe the residents come first, and Board Members who simply don't.

 

TRUTH! “And during the upcoming Board elections, pay special attention to which Board Members think the status quo is completely ACCEPTABLE. There are Board Members who believe the residents come first, and Board Members who simply don't.”

FYI: Ege, Aikins & Collins spots open for election to ‘23 board.
2022 RCSC Board of Directors Terms
President: Dale Lehrer 2021-23
Vice President: Mike Ege. 2020-22
Secretary: Allan Lenefsky 2022-24
Treasurer: Darla Akins 2020-22
Director: Steve Collins 2021-22
Director: Kat Fimmel 2022-24
Director: Karen McAdam 2022-24
Director: John Nowakowski 2022-23
Director: Sue Wilson 2021-23
* Elections are held every year. Terms are three years, unless elected to fill the remaining term of a director who resigned or was terminated.

 

" There are Board Members who believe the residents come first, and Board Members who simply don't"
How can these board members be identified?
Also, When Do I vote?
Good Night for Now.

 

Keep connected with TOSC for ongoing informational discussion!

Attend board meetings, Member/Board Exchange meetings & Candidate Forums.

Member/Board Exchanges meet on the 2nd Monday of the month, 9 a.m.
Board Meetings on the 4th Thursday, 9 a.m.
Both held at Sundial Recreation auditorium, Boswell & 103rd.
No meetings during the months of July and August.

Watch RCSC past meetings. New ones are usually posted same day, starting in September.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCdLy0Uy9sKWCJNLz37tn5ug

 

Election day is 2nd Tues in December, with electronic early voting starting in early Nov.
Don't forget to attend or watch the Candidate Forums before then! (Not sure when exactly those are)

 

I hate to say this, but after all these years, i know it to be a fairly accurate reflection; most people are a lot like peg. That's not an insult by any stretch of the imagination. The vast majority of people who move to Sun City, pay their fees and may use some of the amenities. Some use none at all. They never gripe or complain, they mostly want to live their lives without the drama and angst that comes from being involved.

I get it, i really do. There's days i wish i could turn it all off and just ignore all of the mindless crap that happens. Most of the minutia i write about is lost on those who aren't interested. Almost everyone would prefer one word answers with no overly long diatribes about how or why we got here. If only life were that simple. Maybe it is for some, not me. When one fails to understand how we got here and why, we too often dispatch it as meaningless.

The question really becomes; is it? Does it matter the management team and some of the board think it is just fine to sell our golf courses and tee times to non-residents? After all, it brings in revenue and helps keep costs down. Unfortunately the devil is always in the details. If the only issue was outsiders playing golf for the $44 or $46 per round (summers less), and they could only book tee times after residents had the first option; almost no one would care.

This issue goes much further, much deeper. This has now become the question whether management even has the right to offer up our amenities at reduced prices and the ability to enter the lottery, or worse yet, join in and buy the pre-book small group override? We know the board that voted down Director Collin's motion did so at managements urging. We also know they minimized the impact on the members by claiming it was only 10,000-12,000 rounds per year. And don't forget, golf was profitable in 2021.

Come September, these questions need answers. How many of them are there? How many of them golf in small groups? How many of those buying the $2750 (with golf car) share the golf cars with those who are buying the $2,250 full play pass and then riding along? Details matter, data matters and come September it would behoove the board president to have that information in hand.

 

When i read back over threads, yes i do that often, i find it helps me connect the dots. I know most folks find what i write disjointed. I know that because people/readers have told me, they don't understand, that it's confusing. To be clear, i agree. When i go to the RCSC website and start sifting through documents, financial statements and how it all works, i often find myself scratching my head. Clarity hasn't been their strong suit; at least not over the past 15 years.

Golf has been one of the classic examples of a cluster-flock. The more it became "insider baseball," the less attention people paid. In April, when golfers stepped to the mic to complain, we had one board member brazenly tell us they were "going to get to the bottom of it." Really? Once they did, within two meetings they proclaimed, problem solved. Think not, check the white board where they are keeping track.

It's all kind of like the board president telling board members they don't have the right to make motions or question her rulings. Apparently she can pass and edict and it becomes a done deal. The realty is this; that's not how it works; or at least not how it is supposed to work. The whole point of moving to a member/board exchange was to be able to solve problems, not flush them away with the wave of a hand.

I've had a long standing lament about golf. How secretive it has become; how little the members knew about it. Now we know, the board doesn't know a hell of a lot more. It's simply fit into the pattern we have witnessed for the past 15 years, let the general manager tell them something and it becomes the gospel. I get it, saves them time and effort to just buy whatever is being peddled, but one question...is it the right way for a board to act?

Trying to explain how golf works, with all of the various passes, the surcharge, the insider outsider rates is impossible. Then throw in insider tournaments sprinkled with outsider tourneys and compound that with small group bookings and oh yeah, how about the lottery? Ultimately it becomes the fodder of fools to try and get their heads around. Much like the question, is golf profitable, who knows what is up or down?

Come the September meeting, we will once again renew the discussions about golf. Rather than agonizing over all of the minutia, let me break this down to a single issue for us all to focus on. Should those living outside Sun City (non-members) be allowed access to our golf courses? Access meaning both how much they pay to play and how they are able to book tee times ahead of members.

It's really that simple. Don't get bogged down with all of the noise they have attached to golf and what it means. There is only one question for board members to consider: Why in God's name would we ever give a non-member access ahead of those of us living here?

Why freaking indeed?

 

Plan to attend these RCSC meetings!
EXCHANGE: Monday, Sept. 12, 2022
BOARD: Thursday, Sept. 29, 2022
Be an informed voter!
ELECTION DAY: Tuesday: Dec. 13, 2022

Unable to attend the meetings? View, usually online the same day:
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCdLy0Uy9sKWCJNLz37tn5ug

Member/Board Exchanges meet on the 2nd Monday of the month, 9 a.m.
Board Meetings on the 4th Thursday, 9 a.m.
Both held at Sundial Recreation auditorium, Boswell & 103rd.
No meetings during the months of July and August.
Election day is 2nd Tues in December, with electronic early voting starting in early Nov.
Don't forget to attend or watch the Candidate Forums before then! (Not sure when exactly those are)