It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 30, 2022.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It's one of the reasons i have always resented the direction set by the general manager FYI. She fed the narrative, enjoy life, you don't need to give back. All those years the "greatest generation" served their community, the mantra was a constant; you need to be involved, be the owner and be responsible. The decision to go in a different direction should have been made by the community, not the gm and a handful of board members.

    Golf is the classic example. I don't even fault any of the golfers, if you ask the bulk of them, they will tell you golf pays for itself. It hasn't in years and the boards simply refused to pay attention or care. Trusting the general manager to do the right thing was wrapped up in "loyalty to the corporation." Now as we look at the 990's, we see a wholly different story.

    I have never been against subsidizing golf. I've never been a fan of handing them a blank check either. Sadly over the years that is what we have done. There's been no accountability nor responsibility. As we slipped down the rabbit hole, we ended up where we now are; a bunch of non-residents flooding our courses, taking tee times that belong to members and doing it for less money than 90% of those living here would pay if they stepped on one of our courses.

    Every time i type that, i cringe. Dumb shit happens, the real problem is when the board found out they should have immediately shut the program down. They didn't and the tragedy is we are trapped in the stupid as all of these one year full play passes are contracts that have to be honored. Angry is way too mild a word to use for my disdain for those who refused to support Director Collins motion in June.
     
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  2. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Kinda makes you wonder; just how serious do they take their fiduciary responsibility?
     
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  3. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
  4. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    Is that a mental hospital you have been in? I will gladly go toe to toe with you on your golf knowledge. Bring it on bigmouth.
     
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  5. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Don't hold your breath waiting for say what to respond Larry. For a couple of years now he/she pops in, pisses in someone's Wheaties and then disappears. I used to be interested, not so much any more.

    I know you are a golfer and i know we haven't always seen eye to eye. That's never been a problem for me, i have found from disagreement often comes solutions. Given your comments, i think we are both on the same page regarding outside play and especially those who purchase the full play non-resident passes. I used to golf. It was long enough ago that the $800 surcharge card used to be called the $620 card. My golfing friends were more summer golfers, often going on and playing multiple courses during the day and often more rounds than i could count. Honestly, i sucked at golf. I could hit it far and wide; way wide. Often over houses. I was always afraid i would kill some little old lady or her dog walking down the sidewalk.

    I've always known golf never broke even. I never knew how much. When the 990's were posted on line here by a reader, it verified it. My argument never was about funding it; i hated the fact the general manager hid all of the details from everyone. Even the board. Sun City West courses were taken under the same conditions and management went to the membership, were straight up about it, and the members voted to subsidize golf. It was the right way to do it and the membership understood how important golf is/was to their way of life.

    It wasn't until April at the member/board exchange when i came to understand just how far management had taken us off course. I know all three of the women that spoke out pretty well. I haven't always agreed with them, i have always respected what they had to say. For them to speak out, things had to be bad. Their comments forced me to start digging into the financials posted on the RCSC website.

    It was pretty simple. Once the pandemic hit, golf became the only game in town. The RCSC capitalized on that. No problem, had it only been for and with the membership. They saw an opportunity to go after a bigger market, outside full play passes. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the year to year growth in outside full play passes. The problem is simple, the more people you let in from outside who have unlimited play, the less tee times available for the members. Once they gave them access to the web portal, they were on equal footing with the members as far as access.

    If that wasn't bad enough, the goof telling me at the meetings about his buddies playing with him regularly from outside Sun City triggered the old memory banks. I always knew the groups were a golf thing. I never paid any attention, no reason to. That is until the guy told me these outsiders should in fact be subsidized by those of us living here and even by the membership who pay full price rates for golf. So i am clear, i like the surcharge card, it gives members a break to play more.

    So, here's my question to you Larry. We know there are around 150 (maybe more now), non-resident full play passes. I suspect some of them are members of "small groups" and use the pre-booking process. Small groups are 30 or more golfers who apparently can bypass the lottery (drawing for prime tee times) pay the $2 or $3 fee (per-golfer) and be guaranteed the tee times they want. I see none of these numbers reflected anywhere by the way in the financials. It's all speculation on my part...is that the way it works Larry?

    Because if it is, there's little wonder RCSC golfers who aren't part of the "small group" bookings are angry. That means non-members buying the cheap rates of pay (a little over $20 a round) and are buying golf car rentals for cheaper than Sun City residents ($500 for a golf car guaranteed for the year) are also getting prime time tee times ahead of the membership. That seems inconceivable to me to be the case. I really hope i am wrong. Really i do.

    For those that don't know, the groups play a lot. They have always been a valuable asset to keeping the numbers of rounds of play in the community around the 300,000 mark. That was one of the reasons they created the small group over-ride. With that explanation out of the way, i am pretty sure the program was never set up so those not living here would benefit by it.

    If i am not wrong, someone has some serious explaining to do.
     
  6. pegmih

    pegmih Well-Known Member

    I am tired, tired, and more tired of this GOLF thing.
    I do not play golf. Tried it. Didn't like it. Never tried again.
    TOSC has become nothing but GOLF, GOLF, GOLF.
    Is that all that is happening in our GREAT Sun City?
     
  7. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Golf is the most recent documented example of how RCSC management and board actions have all but eliminated owner-resident Membership rights!

    Is golf outside play worse than the many others? In my opinion, NO. For now, it’s got the #1 spot on the summer play list.

    Of the top songs of the summer each year in the ‘70s, there were several I tired of hearing quickly! Still cringe if I hear them; channel select or OFF!!

    Here, choose an ear worm to think about for the rest of the day …
    1. 1970: The Carpenters - "(They Long to Be) Close to You"
    2. 1971: Carole King - "It's Too Late / I Fell the Earth Move"
    3. 1972: Gilbert O'Sullivan - "Alone Again (Naturally)"
    4. 1973: Wings - "My Love"
    5. 1974: Ray Stevens - "The Streak"
    6. 1975: Captain & Tennille - "Love Will Keep Us Together"
    7. 1976: Wings - "Silly Love Song"
    8. 1977: The Emotions - "Best of My Love"
    9. 1978: Andy Gibb - "Shadow Dancing"
    10. 1979: Donna Summer - "Bad Girls"
     
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  8. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    1972: Billy Paul - "Me and Mrs. Jones"
     
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  9. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    As always, you are free to ignore the post and start a new one. I think it’s a very important topic and it’s something that needs to be addressed with the board. Giving outsiders priority over members is a very dangerous precedent and must be dealt with.
     
  10. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
  11. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Golf is important & being addressed, 107+ opinion/comments. New revelations?
     
  12. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    I don’t think carts should be included in the annual pass. They should be sold to outsiders at the same rate as a members pay. I have never played an course anywhere that allowed non-residents a better rate than residents. When the pandemic hit and SCW shut down their courses, why did mgmt feel like they had to discount the rate to outsiders? Outsider annual rate should be at least 50% higher and carts should be separate and rented per occurrence. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard a starter tell golfers they’re out of carts.
     
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  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    So, basically, we are buying new golf cars to have them on the cheap for full play, non-resident golf pass buyers. Come Sept we need a full accounting of the number of full play non-resident passes purchased and how many of them are paying the $2500 and then letting the $2000 non-car passes ride along with them. I know it's confusing for people to understand, but when a person buys the $2500 pass, they get a golf car included (guaranteed) with it. That equates to $500 for the 100 plus rounds they play, or less than $5 per round. If i go play a round of golf and ride alone, that same car is $12 for the round ($1200 for the year). If i put someone in the golf car with me it is $6 each ($600 each for the year). If they put someone in a the golf car with them, it's $2.50 a round, ($250 each for the year).

    Hence Larry's point and exactly why Director Collins motion should have passed in June. It took away the golf car and it would have stopped the early booking going forward. We know the June sales of full play outside passes jumped again from the year before. Why not? It's the best damned deal for golf in the state (think not, call one of the three private country clubs in Sun City and ask the cost for a membership, on that one course,rather than our 8 courses). Golfers around the West Valley are taking advantage of what the 32,600 RCSC members are subsidizing. How dumb are we?

    Sun City West is a fascinating study. Larry is right again; Sun City West closed golf for a period during the pandemic, and more importantly limited outside play for some of it. Sun City licked their chops and sold the snot out of outside play, arguing golf was safe. Sun City West error-ed on the side of safety. Sun City just pushed the limits and decided our golf future was embedded in those coming in from the outside.

    And to be perfectly clear, Sun City West has an enormous amount of outside play. They have one less course than we do, but a third less of the population. They rely on outside golfers to help keep golf affordable. They were never willing to do it by giving the rounds away or by letting non-residents displace members, especially during prime seasons. Everybody in the state does stuff during the summer to put bodies on the courses. Nobody gives away their tee times in season...except Sun City.
     
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  14. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    On the Sun City Advocates Facebook page i was asked a really good question about whether the RCSC wouldn't have a thresh-hold once they reached the budgeted amount of full play non-resident passes for the year? I knew the off-the-cuff answer, but it sent me scurrying to the financials from the RCSC to verify what i thought. Yikes, way worse than i expected.

    Here's a summary of what i posted:
    2018 Budget; $78,940, Actual; $97,542.
    2019. Budget; $88,175, Actual: $124,739.
    2020 Budget; $109,880, Actual; $148,450.
    2021 Budget; $130,950, Actual; $229,447.
    First 6 months 2022 Budget; $67,405, Actual; $$152,100.

    As you can plainly see, they under-budget outside play. In the first 6 months of 2022 they have sold $55,000 compared to the entire year 2018. It's exactly why the golfing community is so upset. They are taking tee times away from the members. In some cases, it appears if they belong to small groups (30 or more), they can guarantee their tee times with a minimal charge and not even enter the lottery. BTW, they should never bump a Sun City resident IMHO.

    Looking at these numbers quickly tells us the story of why golfing RCSC members are so angry. The RCSC management team apparently looks at these numbers and swoon. Most of us who look at them see it for what it is; selling off the community assets for next to nothing. That's shameful.
     
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  15. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Boo-hoo:
    OPINIONS
    Outside golfer thinks Sun City golf rise is too much
    Tap to Read here
     
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Makes sense to me, completely; someone living outside the walls complaining about an increase on the full play non-resident pass he is buying being too much. Apparently the board and management took his letter to heart and passed the smaller increase he wanted.

    Perfect!
     
  17. Cheri Marchio

    Cheri Marchio Active Member

    Last edited: Aug 1, 2022
  18. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Interesting read Cheri, thanks for posting it. While on the board, i always supported spending money on irrigation, water distribution and more wells. I also agreed with the move to desert landscaping. The problem was we often bundled them with expensive remodels and renovations to existing courses. I was waiting for the punchline in the article, it never came. Both 2023 and 2025 will be banner years for water management by the ADWR. The biggie being the latter, when the spigots are turned off for the rough areas. They either convert to desert landscaping in the roughs or let it turn to dirt.
     
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Let's put this in a perspective you can easily get your heads around: We saw in April, three 20 plus year Sun City golfers complain about what was going on regarding Sun City golf courses and scheduling tee times. Over the next couple of months we saw numerous letter to the editor from more Sun City golfers lodging their frustrations. This morning i opened my copy of the Independent Newspaper that included a complaint from a Peoria resident who had bought a full play, non-resident pass suffering the angst of too large an increase being foisted on those poor souls who had to put gas in their cars and drive all the way to Sun City to golf. He told us all; $500 increase was way too much; at least a third of them would quit and go elsewhere if the RCSC had the brass balls to cave into the membership and raise it that much.

    Guess who the management and board listened to? Are you freaking kidding me?
     
  20. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    That's only assuming there's another place that's cheaper than Sun City and that it'll be closer to their home!!

    I suspect that if they can't afford an increase in Sun City golf then they will simply be playing less golf and not going anywhere, but then again, I'm not a golfer!
     
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