It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Yeah, I read it too!

The paragraph that caught my attention was the one that stated, "Now seems like the time to charge the nonresident golfers more, the rate increase may drive some golfers away (that's OK with most of us anyway), but probably not enough to lose money on golf operations."

The "but probably not enough to lose money on golf operations." part is what caught my attention! WE LOSE MONEY ON GOLF EVERY YEAR! Over $24 million lost since 2008!

 

The RCSC has done an amazing job telling golfers they are breaking even FYI. Way too many think that. It's not their fault, they simply believe what the RCSC has been telling them. Hell, the board member'a think that's the case. It's exactly what they were told at the last board meeting in June; "golf made money in 2021." Who wants to believe/think the management wouldn't be telling them the truth?

BYW, for those of you wondering why this has become a hot button issue by the RCSC golfing community, let me lay it out for you by the numbers. I will use the month of April (first four months of each calendar year) so you understand what has happened.
o4/20: Revenue to date non-resident full play pass: $44,392.
04/21: Revenue to date non-resident full play pass: $67,626.
04/22: Revenue to date non-resident full play pass: $101,552.

As you can see, the numbers of full play non-resident passes has more than doubled since 2020. In fact they've sold 130% more passes. Each and every dollar they take in represents outsiders coming into Sun City and displacing Sun City members. There's nothing hard here to understand, it's just numbers. The more outside play, the less insiders access prime tee times. Now that they can access our web portal they are on equal footing in the lottery. Plus we know they are paying an average of $20 a round and they are paying less for a golf car than Sun City residents are currently paying.

No one in their right mind should be happy with what is going on with outside full play passes. Now that they refused to address the problem via Director Collin's motion, the RCSC has insured this crap will drag on for another year. It's simply the best bargain in golf and all of us living in Sun City are subsidizing outside play for those buying full play passes.

 

When i printed out these full play pass numbers and how they have grown over the past 2 years, it is astounding. By years end, we'll see how many passes they sold over the year. We know in 2021 they took in a touch under $230 K. While that sounds like a lot of money, out of a total golf revenue of over 7 million dollars, it's a drop in the bucket. Arguing that shutting them out would all be lost revenue is folly.

This may shock some of you, but i am more willing to subsidize golf than i am interested in giving our courses to those not living here for sub-par rates and the ability to bump members from playing on our courses. That should never happen. NEVER.

 

My best guess is that come the September member/board exchange the proverbial shit is going to hit the fan. And to be blunt, it should. Everything about this non-resident full play pass is pure crap. My real fear is, it's worse than we actually know. There's another issue at work that hasn't been talked about. What is becoming more apparent is what the RCSC lists in their Board Policies called "Small Group Bookings." It's a structure where a group of 30 or more members (and non-residents) can guarantee their tee times and avoid being bumped in the lottery process (usually during peak tee times in season).

The price isn't listed anywhere i could find but i thought it was $2 per person. As noted above, if that is the case, the whole point of this was when it was setup to afford groups to be able to play together. I get it; that is until the guys living in Peoria, Surprise and Glendale are added to the group and they suddenly are insured tee times by avoiding the lottery completely. None of this information is available online, other than it is there to be used.

There's no data about how many of these groups there are. There's no data about who is in the group and i see no accounting anywhere about the revenue generated by this program. My question is simple; how many RCSC members are bypassed by allowing those living outside the community to come in, fill out a group of 30 or more, and displace them? The answer should be none, zero, nada. Any wagers on if that is the case?

 

Now that we know they are selling even more non-resident full play passes, there needs to be an in depth review of how many there are as of Sept 1, how many have bought passes that include a golf car and how many don't, and how many are playing in groups of 30 or more? Seeing as the president beliefs in data so much, all of these numbers will provide insight into the rest of the story. And, it is a story we need to know answers to.

For example; if we are up to 150 (best guess) and 100 of them pay the $2500 with a car, do the other 50 that don't (and just buy the $2000 pass), do they jump into the carts of those spending the extra $500? If so, that means they can share the cost of cart rental and get it for $2.50 each. Hopefully that isn't the case because if i go play, it will cost me $12 and if i have my wife with me, the cost is $6 each.

It gets worse! How many of those 150 full play passes are playing in groups of over 30? Let's say 100 of them. We know they can spend some amount to insure they get what they want in the lottery for prime time tee times. While the extra cash is nice for their 100 plus rounds they average, the reality is, those not playing in groups of 30 or more can't "block out" their tee times. Does this mean those coming in are doing just that and insuring they get their tee times ahead of the members?

For those unfamiliar with this, here's the language from the board policy:
Small Group Bookings

Only approved golf groups will be allowed to prebook RCSC golf facilities ahead of the draw. The following criteria for approval will be used:

1. Requests will be accepted according to a schedule determined by the Director of Golf.
2. Requests must be accompanied by the number of participants, desired golf course(s) and desired tee times.
3. Small Group Bookings must pay a booking fee per player and play date to block tee times. This fee will be paid at the time of the booking request.
4. The minimum number of players participating in a small group event must be thirty (30). Requests for small groups of fewer than thirty (30) players will be rejected.
5. No requests will be accepted for Tuesday (Ladies Day) or Wednesday (Men’s Day) or on other days that interfere with other scheduled events.
6. Small Group Bookings are not considered tournament play.
7. Approved Small Group Bookings must provide a list of pairings including RCSC Cardholder numbers and Guest Names to the appropriate pro shop six (6) days prior to each scheduled play Failure to provide this list may cause cancellation of the play date.

You tell me what i am missing or if i am wrong in my analysis.

 

I'm no where close to understanding this issue as well as you Bill, but the one thing I see missing in that Board Policy is any reference to whether or not those Small Groups are Sun City residence or are they outside groups from Peoria, Glendale and Surprise?

Is there no preference for a Sun City residence?

 

Apparently not FYI. This all came to light while arguing with a golfer who boldly told me i had an obligation to subsidize his buddies coming in from the outside. He claimed i didn't understand how important it was for these full play non-resident passes were. I was stunned until it dawned on me without them, he probably couldn't get 30 residents together, so it was critical for him to have the outsiders filling out the group of 30.

By the way; i just went through a book with board policies from around 2000, there was no mention of outside groups. It was clear residents of 24 or more qualified, but the changes for those outside Sun City didn't qualify. Of course, back then, the board believed the courses were there for the members.

I am also really curious where that charge for pre-booking shows up on the books? We know they told us the average cost for a member buying a full play pass was $12 and change and an outsider was $18 and change. Do those figures include the pre-booking fees collected? So many questions, so few answers.

 

I've got a copy of the March 28th 2019 Resolution when they terminated 21 Board Policies and integrated them into the Bylaws. (That's an issue for another day as too why most don't belong in the Bylaws!)

You're correct, that the 2019 Board Policy 17 on Golf has no reference to Small Group Bookings.

 

No one in their right mind would do that. The board policies had been around and built by the community for the community. By junking up the bylaws with these, and gutting them as well, it made the bylaws nearly unreadable. I guess that was the point. Wonder who did that? The board? Or, the general manager?

 

Well,...we all know where their mind/brain is don't we!

I have done my due diligence on that exact issue with my contacts. In the world of Robert's Rules most of those Board Policies would/should be considered "Standing Rules" because they are rules not used in the context of a meeting. Bylaws, for the most part contain the rules of the organization and rules used for conducting a meeting/business in an efficient and fair way as well as procedures for disciplinary action. Standing Rules are things that pretty much have no effect on the deliberation of a meeting. Standing Rules are things like, all cell phones must be put on silent, no recording of the meeting is allowed, or pool noodles can't extend more than 2 feet past the swimmer!

One of the things the corporate documents currently lack are Standing Rules and Special Rules of Order.

Special Rules of Order are those rules that supersede Robert's Rules. If you don't like the fact that Robert's Rules only allows you to speak twice in debate for 10 minutes each time, then you write and document a special rule of order that might only allow you to speak twice for 3 minutes each time! But if you listen to the Board, and the way they're always jamming down our throats that "This is what you asked for when you didn't want to change the Bylaws from "shall" to "should." they have no idea how to use Robert's Rules.

These are all things that should be done to comply with Robert's Rules but when some people on the Ad Hoc committee don't even own a copy of Robert's Rules how can you expect compliance?

I think we're in for a treat when they finally do emerge. We might be in for a fight as well?

 

Call me a cynic, but my take on the trashing of the old documents was so moving forward, members would have little or no recollection of what was and how we got here. Golf might just be the best example of what was intended. When you know and understand the terms the courses were bought under, everything changes. Until i came across the purchasing documents at the Museum, the general manager claimed she just didn't even know where to look to find them to show me (while on the board). Funny, the meeting after i had them in my hand, she was clutching them in hers. Suffice to say she didn't read from them, just claimed they said something wholly different.

The old Board Policies were explicit and detailed. They started by outlining the purpose for the documents and that board members should acquaint themselves with what they said. As i was reading them, i sat stunned, none of that was anywhere to be found in current documents. The sections on golf, and there were a couple, had changed as well. On purpose? You be the judge given what has happened.

The point regarding the documents and specifically golf is this: For as long as the RCSC has been formally in existence (1968 with a new name in 1972), the sentiment in the community was the amenities belonged to us (the membership). The challenge was, the golf courses until 1977, were in fact still owned by DEVCO. The purchase agreement included in the 18 month trial period, the obligation of DEVCO to stop all outside play by the time the RCSC took over.

From that point forward, those elected to the boards, to leadership positions, were fiercely loyal to the community and who used our amenities. Yes they allowed non-residents in, however it was never by allowing outsiders lower rates to play or access ahead of members. Never. That was/is a recent phenomenon foisted on the membership by management and in concert with a handful of board members who either didn't know better, or didn't care.

We know Sun City West collects nearly 5 million dollars in outside play, but it isn't done selling cheap golf or compromising prime tee times to residents. That is and should be our policy as well. The 250k they take in (for full play non-resident passes) simply isn't worth selling the members short by giving it away. I don't know how i can be more clear than this.

 

What many people discount or ignore is the additional revenue that is missed because of members not being able to get the tee times they want. These are paying rounds that don’t get played because an outsider has filled the slot. Abolish outside annual passes or at least make them a lot more expensive and increase the cart rental fees across the board.

 

Spot on Larry. This nonsense that losing the full play non-resident pass would kill golf is simply bullshit. At best it is $250K which is tiny in relation to the budget, but huge in members having access. How much of that revenue would be captured is unknown, but in my mind a good share of it. Do you know if the small group (30 or more) pre-booking allows non-residents? If so, how much does it cost?

 

Larry, you have no clue what you are talking about. I will be back on here soon. In and out of the hospital. Bye, the July MGMT report looks good. I will say one thing quickly. Larry, if you call any golf course in SC and expect to get the exact tee time to play will never happen here or anywhere else. If you had any knowledge of the subject you would have known that. You all are off the rails with this golf thing. Most of you don't play. There's all kinds of SC golf clubs the play year round. There's a lot of golfers that will slam this down your throat come fall and you will be embarrassed. Some of you just don't get how things work. Big pickle ball tournament coming this fall. What happens if a bunch of us SC members and homeowners decide we want to play when the tournament is scheduled. Do you think we could go play and tell all the non residents to get the hell out? Larry, get your information right or STFU, you are clueless about this subject.

 

Damn say what i'm on pins and needles. There's volumes of data posted on here you are suggesting is wrong. I love, absolutely love when people can step up and show me the error of my ways. You've made the statement, now you either put up or shut up. I know where my money is, but go ahead and take your best shot.

Waiting excitedly.

 

Oh Boy!....This is gonna get good!

Nothing like watching a gunfight against an unarmed man!

I need to go get my popcorn!

 

Everyone who is anyone knows Say What is full of himself, not to mention other types of excrement. Yup, I am still alive and kicking, just not as available as I much as I would like to be to post many thoughts on issues, such as Say What.

Glad to see the forum and the community paying attention the items and topics that are of the greatest importance. Golf has always sucked the money from this community and the former GM not only allowed it, but made all of the bylaw changes and other types of creative finacial changes to encourage this type of revunue drain. When we served on the board Bill, we asked about golf numerour times. We asked about revenue, usage, free play, utilization, spending, income, and so many other topics. Unfortunately for us, and the community, the board was comprised of a golf contigent which was glad to keep information away from us, and even more so from any eyes of any inquiring public. Of course, this attitude was wholly supported and endorsed by the GM, which made sure their agenda always came before any questions we could ask.

I truly hope to see this community advance its inquiry into its history as well as what it needs to be the first class active adult supportive community I know Sun City can be for the future. It surely would be a great thing to see two things happen in the near future to enhance this possibility. Bill, you would be an excellent addition to have on the board again, as your knowledge and expertise is sorely needed to keep others in thier proper perspective of what this community needs to be great and fruitful for the future. I also think you know a wonderful man who would make a first class parliamentarian, and would probably step up and take on such a task if he knew you were an integral part of the RCSC board and the shaping of future of Sun City.

I have been busy with personal duties caring for a relative needing my attention. I do get in and read when I can, and yes there are times I really would like to comment. Today was one of those times! Have a great day and do try and be kind to each other. If you are going to shoot your mouth off, please try to make sure you at least have some ammunition in which to offer a decent fight and not just sound ridiculous, which is what SW usually does.

 

Hey Carole, long time no hear. Good to see you are still kicking. I want to give Say What the benefit of the doubt and listen to his/her arguments. Clearly when he/she called Larry out (who i believe is a golfer) was specific that neither he, nor i had any idea what we were talking about. Always happy to listen and learn. The challenge is we now have data that is pretty clear and unambiguous; but hell, i've been wrong before, and i'm sure i will make more mistakes as we go along. Still waiting for the 2020 990 to be posted. Odd it is taking this long.

Ben would in fact make a great Parliamentarian. I doubt he has any more interest in filling that role than i have in returning to the board. My real hope is we see new residents come forward who are interested in the process of self-governance. The only way i run is if there aren't qualified candidates, you know, those who believe the gm is infallible. Sadly we lived through those years where no one had the courage to challenge or question what was being done or the direction she was taking us in.

It is of little surprise we have ended up where we are. A place where the management team argues outsiders have as much or more right to enjoy our amenity package and to do it for less money than those who bought and paid for it. What surprised me the most was when the vote was taken, board members agreed, outsiders ahead of the members. That is freaking unbelievable and unacceptable. We are now in a place we would have never been in, ever.

 

It may feel as if we have never been here before, but the truth is, we have been going down this path for years. I don't like to use the word "collusion" but I don't know what else to call implicit and tacit buyin by certain members of the RCSC Management Team and particular RCSC board members, most of whom were in officer positions.

I am not in any way stating any particular person is guilty of collusion, merely using a word becuase I could not think of a better one at this writing. Yet if we look at the various board members that have had a hand in decisions made over the years, as appointees by the board, to serve at the leisure of the board, not as represntatives of the membership, it is clear how each and every step and meeting has directed to where we are now. And yes, it has had the very direct implication, in my opinion, these decisions were made to the benefit of others to benefit other than those of the Sun City community.

One case in point I will use that still has rubs me the wrong way, and has a lasting effect is the trips by the bus companies to the various location and venues that were afforded to the residents of the Sun City community. Where are those bus trips now? Is there even a way to find a local contact to find a quick out of twon get away from Sun City to a local city or nearby destination for a quick out of town respite? It was a convenience offered to us through the RCSC offices. Where is that feature now?

That is just one of the little extra's that has vanished from our grasp. I know, sounds petty, but is it really? I miss those opportunities to go on those trips. I miss the location of the RV club and the offerings they had, I miss the outdoor gatherings by the large groups for barbecues that would celebrate heritage of years gone by and I miss comraderie of the small town community mentality that made Sun City the great collective of people, ideas and togertherness we have lost.

So, I will now drag my soap box back to my closet, and stop lamentng the items lifestyle lost. You are right Bill, It's not just about golf.

 

Us Baby-Boomers were raised by the Greatest Generation who put others and their needs before themselves. For many years we have continued those principals ingrained within us by our parents. We shared together, we laughed, cried and prayed together, but now we're being administered and living among a different generation! The younger generation thinks more about their own self satisfaction than they do for others.

Just one man's opinion!