It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 30, 2022.

  1. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
  2. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    RCSC employees can play golf for $2.00 per round.
     
  3. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Interesting!? The former employee the I know that received a free pass for golf also lived in Sun City.

    I wonder if there are different rules for those employees who are not SC residents?
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Back when i was on the RCSC board (2012-2014) that was a question we raised, and to this day, i'm still not sure. If memory serves me, back then all employees got "free golf." The next question we asked was how many rounds were employees playing? We wanted individual stats on rounds played, not the names. The employees were doing nothing wrong by playing, we were just curious. Back then, the average wage for a part time monitor was between $7 and $8 an hour. Free golf was a benefit but if someone was playing 150 or 200 rounds, that meant their average wage was much higher. Only a handful of employees played excessively.

    The bigger issue is, can they, do they bump full price players? So much about golf has been kept quiet. The general manager worked hard to keep it off the radar screen. Dumb and in the dark was pretty much the method used. Hell, until the first member/board exchange i had no idea non-residents had access to our web portal (nor did board members). One would have thought that was a decision made by the board of directors, or perhaps, by the golf advisory committee. The truth is, neither of those parties made that decision, management did. They single-handedly gave away the right to enjoy what we all owned. That's wrong.

    To FYI's point, the bulk of the management team lives outside Sun City. It doesn't mean they can't do their jobs. We know the previous gm lived here and look at the direction she took us in. I'm less concerned where they live and more interested in what they do and how they do it. The fact they know so little about our history is disturbing, but when you consider the board president's comments regarding our history, it's pretty clear, none of them give two shits about where we came from or why we were so successful.

    Our golf courses should never be sold to outsiders cheaper than what any one of the RCSC members (owners) are asked to pay. Non-residents should never have access to our web portal. Those not living here should never bump a member from a prime time tee slot. This whole thing gets even more convoluted by the fact groups of golfers are filling their groups with non-residents, and if i understand it, they can buy (insure) time slots with an up-charge. Not even sure how that works, maybe Larry has a better understanding of it.
     
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  5. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I'm not implying that they can't do their jobs, I'm sure they're all quite qualified. My only point is that they don't really have any skin in the game. It's just a job for them.
     
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  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I agree whole heatedly FYI, it's why i always measure success or failure by their actions. Words are meaningless if you can't back up what you say. It's even worse when they don't tell you anything and just do as they please. It was the one hope i saw promise in with Bill Cook, he was more open with information. He just hated when he got push back.

    This thread is fascinating to me, the number of those reading and following is crazy. I know there are some who think i hate golf, that's never been the case. I hate how it has been run/managed. The dirty little secrets have been a constant as board members and management alike have have all but remained silent on what is going on. Now that it is in the open, they want to minimize what they have done. Sorry, not going to work. Allowing non-residents to use our courses as their own personal playgrounds is pure crap.

    Your comments FYI are the perfect segue into what Sun City should look and feel like. And to be clear, back 15 years ago, how it was run. The board hired management to run the day to day operations. The board was elected to represent, serve the community. It was that simple a relationship. The former general manager changed all of it as she rewrote documents to enhance her power and diminish the board's role. I don't even fault her, the board should have been the ones to hold her feet to the fire. They simply didn't.
     
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  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just wow! Let me repeat what i stated above, and i mean this from the bottom of my keyboard. If the general manager and the director of golf lied to the board members who ultimately voted to stay the course on non-member full play passes, they should be fired immediately. They both told the board, the membership in the room and those who would ultimately watch the video; "we made money in golf in 2021."
     
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  8. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I have a feeling that may very well be true because of being the only activity during the Covid crisis, which made it basically the only game in town! There was nothing else to do?

    We really need to see the 990's...and why is it taking so long for them to be posted?
     
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  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It makes absolutely no sense for the 2020 990's not be posted (that's not on the RCSC BTW. Board members can access them from management). None. That will be the tell. We need to see how much the expense side went up from the 8 million dollar plus shown in 2019. We also know the 2021 990's are supposed to be submitted by May 15, but they can request an extension till Oct. No idea why they would need to, they obviously are sent out to their accountants to do it.

    Everything breaks down using their own financials. Even with the pandemic and being the only game in town, revenues were no higher than 7.3 million dollars and that's using every nickle collected from golf.
     
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  10. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    May have something to do with their pay level
     
  11. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I believe it's the difference between full time and part time employees?

    Full time is free, part time costs 2 bucks.
     
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Offering RCSC employees golf either free or at reduced prices has been a perk that works. Lots of folks take monitor jobs on a part time basis, with the reduced price for golf being a real incentive to fill those positions. The only caveat would be they shouldn't bump full price golfers from prime tee times. I was asking about the $2 charge to secure/insure one's tee time, but couldn't find anyone who knew the answer. Still curious if anyone knows for sure.

    Got an email where apparently a partial filing of the 2020 990 is available. Unfortunately it's just the preliminary top portion summary of the document. What we really need to see is Part 3 where they break out Expenses/Revenue for golf. Should be worth the wait, especially given we were all told the RCSC made money in their golf division.
     
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  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I've been doing this for a long time, some would argue too long. They may be right because anyone in their right mind would have quit long ago. For those confused by what "this" means, writing about Sun City. Before we ever moved into the community (2003), i began penning my thoughts, in fact, as early as 2000 (we bought in 1999 when we were 51). My first scratching was an open letter to the folks living around us on Boswell and Desert Rock. I wanted to introduce our neighbors to my wife and i and share with them the contractors we used to remodel our home. I went thought a boatload of them.

    It helped me understand the importance of community and of belonging. Even though we wouldn't move in for 3 more years, i came to understand why Sun City was so successful. Life is filled with teachable moments, all you have to do is look for them.

    22 years later, after writing millions of words, i've mellowed a bit. I still believe that Sun City's history is our path forward. I've quit trying to shove it down people's throat. I've come to appreciate the incredible talent of those living here. It's tragic the RCSC "lost" the bulk of the video from the 2021 annual membership meeting. As i sat through the lengthy session i saw up close and personal how the membership responded. I was stunned. It's even more tragic they have pushed the membership away rather than tap into them.

    All of this is just the setup for a posting made on the Sun City Advocates page. It was forwarded to me by the remarkable woman who does the lion's share of the work on the SCA page. I check the site every day, but this response was far enough down i didn't catch it. I know who posted it and he is, by far, a better numbers guy than i am. I can sort through them, but i don't particularly care to do it. He loves it and is good at it.

    Anyway, his comments on SCA claimed the 990's weren't the real picture regarding golf. He suggested i shouldn't be focused on them, or even care. I'm not going to argue that point here, because his bottom line contention is my main focus. He posted the expense side of golf from 2020 was just a touch under 9 million dollars. I have always believed that would be what we would see from the 990's. Not because i'm that smart, but that million dollar increase in costs was very close to what Sun City West showed on their 990's from 2019 to 2020.

    So, what is the point of this diatribe? Simple, we know the revenue side of golf from the RCSC financials posted in Dec of 2020 netted out around 7 million dollars (the actual is posted above). If the expenses were/are indeed as the poster suggested, 9 million dollars, that results in a 2 million dollar shortfall. It gets worse, because we know the cost of everything exploded in 2021. We also know from the RCSC financials in 2021 posted on their site, the revenue was only up 300K (to 7.3 million dollars).

    And to be more clear, the general manager and the director of golf told us point blank at the June board meeting, "golf made money in 2021." I'm not sure how any of this equates to a profit, but somehow they told board members at the June board meeting they did make money. I know at least one of the board members who didn't vote to increase the cost of outside full play passes because they were told golf made money.

    We've got all summer to mull over these questions, issues. By the time we have the September member/board exchange, there best be some very serious soul searching. Because by then, those who voted, based on what may have been erroneous information, should be having a come to Jesus moment. Board members rely on and trust those in management telling them the truth. If i were in their shoes and i cast my vote based on bullshit, i would be really, really angry.

    Stay tuned, tomorrow we will look at how historically Sun City residents, RCSC members viewed outsiders using our amenities.
     
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  14. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Well Bill, you have to admit one thing; the RCSC is certainly living up to their non-profit status!

    Perhaps they should reapply as a Charity?
     
  15. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Only when it comes to their golf division FYI. The other thing we know from their financials is their carry forward yearly totals are insane. Nothing wrong with saving money, that is until it comes at the expense of the quality of life and safety within the community. Sadly we now know that has been exactly what has been happening. Million plus dollar carry-overs are insane when you consider the state of our technology.

    Let's me be blunt here; we have no capacity to bring our technology up to date to secure the safety measures that need be done to stop the crap going on in Sun City. My good friends the Nixon's just got a house to sell in Phase 1. When they went in, there were 3 squatters living there. They had the Sheriff come and throw them out. They claimed they had been told it was okay by the owners daughter. The woman owning it, had no knowledge.

    We also know the RCSC has now started off duty sheriff patrolling two of our rec centers. We know the softball field building has been broken into 5 or 6 times and stuff stolen. We know Mountain View has massive fencing around parts of the center to help stop thieves and vandals. We know the RCSC has told us, new buildings will include technology advances to stop this kind of stuff. We know for certain, that isn't the case at the Grand Center.

    We also know the RCSC put on an impressive presentation on all the things that could be done regarding the safety of the community. The cheapest was a program like they have in Youngtown with camera readers that will pick up license plates from possible dirt bags and criminals. We saw a million dollar plus presentation on what it would take to install cameras around every one of our properties. Both were impressive and would begin to change the dynamic within the community. How are we doing on either of those?

    Oh wait, we can't do any of that can we? Our technology is so bad, we can't even fix our connection problems via the internet. Without technology being where it should, any opportunity to make Sun City a safer community is simply down the shitter. I know, i've heard, we're on it. The 500k they want to spend this year is a drop in the bucket. What's worse is, with the "supply chain problems," we'll never get there.

    We have sadly spent the past 15 years focused on the wrong issues. Playing hide the weenie with the whole golf numbers has helped erode so much of what we were all about. Let me say it again, i don't hate golf, it will always play a significant role in selling Sun City. Unfortunately, the way this has unfolded, we've ignored where we were going and now that we are there, no on wants to look at it objectively.

    Think not? Then why in God's name do we give two shits about the 250K we take in from non-resident full play passes? They have no business, no right to bump RCSC members from prime tee times and they have even less right to step on our courses for less money than an RCSC members pays to play, not ever.
     
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  16. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Does anybody know if those forms that are created during the Member/Board Exchanges are available for review on the RCSC website? I couldn't find them under Meeting Minutes & Summaries.

    I'm curious to see what some of the concerns were and what were the "action plans" that were to be used by the RCSC that were supposedly designed to address them. If I remember correctly, some of the concerns were designated as a kind of "resolved" but did we actually learn what the resolution actually was?

    Any action on those golf fees? Steve Collins motion at the last board meeting didn't go anywhere.

    Did the Best Friends Dog Club get anywhere with their request for an indoor training center?

    What exactly is being done about security and the homeless? And speaking of homeless squatters moving into empty houses, what's up with that? Why aren't neighbors reporting it?

    We need to emphasize and bring back neighborhood watches again, but of course I don't believe we can call it "Neighborhood Watch" anymore because that's some kind of copyright infringement?

    Many more...
     
  17. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I couldn't agree more on the idea of neighborhood watches. The biggest problem with abandoning the sense of community is we fail one another. We lose sight of our neighbors, often people who have lived here a very long time. Two of my neighbors, one is 100 and the other 97, two others are in their late 80's. There was a time when Sun City residents knew who their neighbors were and watched out for one another. I know it's not how society works these days, doesn't mean we can't go back there.

    The issues FYI highlighted above are everywhere. We can't fix them outside the walls, inside we can. It was what attracted me to Sun City, we owned it, it was ours and we had an obligation to see it stayed true to the tenets they built into it. That's why the deplorable condition our technology is in grates on me. Everything intersects with everything else. Pushing the membership away, segmenting them to only care about their club, their issue, results in diminishing that sense of community. That belief that Sun City truly is a sum total of its parts has been lost to am i getting mine?

    It truly was short sighted to embrace the fun city logo rather than the city of volunteers. It caused us to look inward at what we wanted personally rather than what the community needed as a whole. It made it easier for the general manager to take us where she wanted to go...when you look back, was that the right direction?
     
  18. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Neighborhood Watch Alive & Growing In Sun City

    Watching out for each other
    Neighborhood Watch foundation of crime prevention


    Fighting crime is a joint effort for Sun City residents and it can start with a Neighborhood Watch group.

    That was the message Marc Fuller, Sun City Posse commander, had for residents who attended the agency’s June 13 Neighborhood Watch meeting. The gathering was the last for the 2021-22 season as winter visitors scatter to their other homes to beat the Arizona heat. The monthly meetings will resume in the fall.

    The Posse, which coordinates the Neighborhood Watch program in Sun City, merged the NW captains’ meetings into the single monthly gatherings earlier this year, and the switch appears to have been successful, with the first two drawing large crowds. With so many residents already gone for the summer, the June 13 meeting was more modest, but spirited.

    Some residents demanded to know what the Posse was doing or would do in specific circumstances of trespass and suspicious or criminal activity reported by residents. Katie Fontana, leading the meeting, and Dave Miller, Posse community liaison officer, tried to explain the Posse’s role was not as a law enforcement agency.

    “For anything that appears to be a criminal act, you need to call the Marcopa County Sheriff’s Office,” Miller said. “That includes trespassing.”

    He explained if the Posse is called they would do a drive-by to assess the situation and provide a deterring presence. If the situation appears to need further action, the Posse patrol would alert MCSO, he added.

    “We don’t want anyone shooting anyone — or shooting at all,” Fontana said in response to a resident who asked if he found someone sitting in his lawn chairs could he shoot them.

    However, residents can form Neighborhood Watch groups that can enhance crime prevention. A watch group is designed to have neighbors watching out for each other, getting to know each other and the routines of the neighborhood.

    “You are the ones who know best if something is not right in your neighborhood,” Fontana said.

    Watch groups are a way to tell criminals residents are not going to put up with their activities and that they need to find another place to go, according to Fuller.

    “We can each be a crime fighter by being organized and watching out for each other,” he said.

    Maria Ceosins, Posse Neighborhood Watch coordinator, said the three key words for watch groups are aware, prepare and practice.

    “Be aware there is a problem, prepare by forming a Neighborhood Watch and practice what you need to do,” she said.

    Residents within a Neighborhood Watch group can get signs for windows in their home alerting criminals they are part of the group, signs can be placed in public view on light poles within the watch group area and group residents are encouraged to meet regularly to find out what is going on in the neighborhood.

    Fontana said Posse members will make presentations to any residents interested in forming a group.

    “We can make the presentation in one of your homes at any time of your convenience,” Miller said.

    Fontana shared some tips to help residents protect their property and themselves from criminal activity. These included keep doors on homes and vehicles locked, locking all windows in a home, keep the property well lit at night, turning off outside light during the day, installing motion sensors and cameras, do not leave valuables visible in vehicles, do not leave keys in a golf car, change the ignition to a specific key for golf cars, keep garage doors closed and doors from the garage to the home locked, inventory items in the home so they can be identified if stolen and recovered. She also said if walking in the community at night, always take a flashlight and a whistle.

    She also suggested resident view the YouTube video made by a Navy Seal about being safe during a home invasion. Visit youtube.com/watch?v=L84WvNsdU_M.

    Kenny Kovac, Sun City assistant fire marshal, was also on hand at the Neighborhood Watch meeting to explain the lock box and Vial of Life programs through the Sun City Fire and Medical Department.

    Lock boxes are attached to a home near the front door and contain a key to the home so emergency crews do not have to break in during cases when a resident cannot open the door. Only the fire department can open the boxes, Kovac explained.

    The Vial of Life is a prescription bottle kept in a resident’s refrigerator that includes identification and information about health issues so emergency crews know what they are dealing with in medical emergencies.
    ##
    Posted Wednesday, June 22, 2022 12:00 am
    By Rusty Bradshaw
    Mail | Twitter: @SunCitiesEditor

    Sun City Posse Headquarters
    10861 W Sunland Dr.
    Sun City, AZ 85351
    623.972.2555
    Lobby Hours: 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM
    Call us by phone: 6:30 AM to 9:00 PM

    Sun City Posse Satellite Office
    10415 Grand Ave.
    Sun City, AZ 85351
    623.972.2555
    Lobby Hours: 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM
    Call us by phone: 6:30 AM to 9:00 PM

    https://suncityposse.org
     
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  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I'll be blunt here (what's new?), and state i have long resented the RCSC running from our history and not towards it. When i ran and served on the board, i had naively believed they would want to embrace it. During my three years there it became abundantly clear they wanted nothing to do with how and why we were so successful. Clearly our visions differed.

    This thread has been the perfect example of why it mattered and if you stay with me, by the end you will see how it has come been destroyed. The "block watch" discussion is classic. Did you know at one time block watches were everywhere. They were common place. The POSSE organized them and coordinated with residents. Stemming from them were gatherings from whole block garage sales to monthly block parties. It was organic and just the norm.

    There's so much more: Did you know there was an information referral staffed by volunteers where you could call and get answers, phone numbers addresses? Did you know there was a group who made daily wellness checks on seniors who signed up for the free service? Did you know that DEVCO and then the RCSC regularly polled and voted the membership to insure the direction they were going in was what the community wanted? Did you know at quarterly membership meetings both the board and the membership could vote through bylaw changes? Did you know committees were hands on regarding everything from laying out the monthly newsletter to hand picking the talent performing at the Sun Bowl?

    Even more staggering; did you know the infighting over direction of the community was going in was hard fought? Did you know the battle to incorporate went on for more than 30 years? Did you know organizations including DEVCO supported it, but the home owners didn't want it? Did you know the fight over school districts in the early 70's resulted in multiple lawsuits? Did you know the Spur Feedlot dispute around 1970 also had dozens of legal actions? Do you know the history of the mini-Berlin wall?

    I could do this all day, our history is filled with stories that back fill how we got to where we are and why we were so successful. Because the real story through all of the tumult, the disagreement and disharmony is when we came out the other side, Sun City was better for it. Through the angst, decisions were made that made us stronger, more secure and better situated to move into the future. Differing opinions isn't a bad thing if it results in solutions that work.

    The real problem comes when you squash dissent, when you limit participation and when you think one person alone has all of the answers. Unfortunately we got there over the past 15 years as the board bought into loyalty to the corporation and the general manager being the end game.

    The real rub, the nexus of my argument is this: Through all of the challenges of the first 60 plus years of our existence, there has been one constant; the board and the membership knew and understood the reason, the purpose of Sun City's very existence has been that it was built for us, the members. There's never been a time in our history where anyone has argued someone not living in Sun City has a right to access our amenities. In fact, just the opposite.

    We can go back into the 70's and 80's and find any number of articles where that refrain, they belong to us, has been made and made loud and clear. So much so, in the 1975 purchase agreement made between DEVCO and the RCSC for the 7 golf courses (Quail Run came a couple of years later), the deal included all non resident golf be removed. It was an 18 month trial period and DEVCO was obligated to stop non-residents from playing on our courses.

    It came as no surprise to me when the director of golf, following the meeting, mentioned Webb let non-members play. They did, in fact, from before Sun City opened. I didn't waste my time explaining to him, golf courses were used to sell homes. DEVCO owned the courses till the very end (unlike the Rec Centers the community took quickly). They were loss leaders that never made money as a venture. The courses were part and parcel of what helped Sun City be successful. John Meeker's journals tell the story, by build-out in 1978, Sun City had produced for DEVCO some $164,000,00 in pre-tax profits. He didn't use the golf courses to generate profits, they were there to enhance sales.

    That's why i always tell people, we are a golfing community. We always will be. They were and are significant to us and our quality of life. The only question i have is, at what cost?

    All that aside, let me close this out with reference to what happened at the June board meeting. As much vitriol as there has been in this community regarding issues over the years, the one thing we (the community) always agreed on was this: The golf courses, the rec centers, the clubs all belong to the membership. Over the years we have softened a bit on outside play, usage. There has never, NEVER been a time when anyone supported the idea someone living outside Sun City should get access, get a better deal or price than a member living and owning a home in the community. NEVER!

    That is until recently when some of the board and several of the management people decided outsiders were entitled to better rates and should be able to bump residents from prime tee times. That is freaking insanity.
     
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  20. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    And you need too run again, and if you win, you may not win any of your arguments during the debates at the meetings, but everybody who attends those meetings or watches them on YouTube will hear your arguments. I believe once the truth is known the tide will begin to change.

    One thing for sure...you're for the Membership!
     

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