Has anyone been following the case?

No steam rooms; some talk, but no action.

 

Thanks. Would be good for people’s skin. Steam add moisture to the skin which is helpful in a dry climate. Sauna makes you sweat your own moisture. Both makes muscles feel good but I like the added moisture. Hopefully one day SC will get one.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to whether the PIF will be impacted in any way as a result of the court findings? Has the RCSC weighed in on what actions they plan to take as a result of the court findings? Just curious...

 

If you read the article in the Independent this week, you will get a true sense of just how little the person behind the suit cares for Sun City. Obviously the RCSC won't comment, but in Rusty's interview, the prospect of the the PIF being deemed illegal made her almost giddy. I've written this before and exactly why my blood boils; When we sat and chatted, she could have cared less about how the community funded new projects. The reality is they would never pass yearly assessments to cover costs and Sun City would simply shrivel and die. The simple truth is the current structure is the best of all worlds. Those who have lived here sren't being asked to pay for the renovations, it comes from those buying here and who will be using them for years to come. If they think the PIF is fair or right, there are other communities that don't charge it.

The article pointed out Title 33 has caps on fees that can be charged under the statute but is silent on PIF, or what others call impact fees. i think it is safe to say, if the judge were to rule they couldn't collect PIF or worse yet, reimburse those who paid it, the RCSC would appeal the case as high as they would have to go to for resolution. I don't anticipate that happening, but who knows these days how anything is determined eh?

 

I think BP said they decided to follow most title 33 guidelines on their own, not that they were forced to. That way they could still choose which parts they wanted and which they didn't.

 

Not sure gang if they follow it all, or most of it. Clearly they embraced it years back when they switched from closed door meetings to being totally open. The Sun City West for open governance group wanted to see changes and those running the community saw the value of working with their concerns rather than getting into legal battles including expensive lawsuits. What a novel idea, doing the right thing for the right reasons.

Your point Emily about SCW and the fact they too have their own form of PIF is noteworthy. It seems illogical to me the judge would rule against a community that is run as well as Sun City is makes no sense. The point of it being a class action suit was in the hope of awarding vast sums of money as a class, something of course the attorneys drool over. Based on what i've read to date, it appears if there are damages, it would have to be based on valid claims of loss rather and filed on an individual basis. Nope, not an attorney, and all of this is pure assumption on my part.

 

I thought the RCSC was contending it was a class action suit, the plaintiffs argued it was not. I have not read enough to determine if the plaintiffs were seeking individual damages.

 

MINUTE ENTRY
Courtroom: ECB 413
8:48 a.m. This is the time set for Oral Argument regarding Plaintiffs’ Motion to Extend Time for Plaintiffs to Respond to Defendant’s Motion for Partial Summary Judgment to Conduct Phase Two Discovery or, in the Alternative, Request for Rule 56(d) Relief filed on September 17, 2018. Plaintiffs are represented by counsel, Ashley Hill. Defendant is represented by counsel, Christopher LaVoy. Both counsel appear telephonically.
A record of the proceedings is made digitally in lieu of a court reporter. Oral argument is presented to the Court.
For the reasons set forth on the record,
IT IS ORDERED granting plaintiffs’ request for extension to Rule 56(d) and allowing plaintiffs time to respond to defendant’s motion for partial summary judgment. Plaintiffs shall respond to defendant’s motion for partial summary judgment by March 26, 2019.

It would appear the plaintiffs have asked for an extension to file their case, possibly to try and make it a class action suit by looking at all of the names listed. The next date for arguments is now set for March 26, 2019.

There is also an additional telephone conference with the court set for 15th of October for which there appears to be disputes over discovery information. The court has ordered a one page summary be emailed to the clerk of his court by the counsels.

So, as of this writing, the case continues without a final verdict.

 

Great info Carole and conincides with the rumors i am hearing. So we are clear, the attorneys representing the plaintiffs wanted a class action suit. Without it, those who feel they were “injured” would have to file themselves and prove harm. Feel free to correct that assumption Carole.

 

Yes, Bill it is the Plaintiffs that are asking for the case to be deemed a class action. It would appear the have added a bunch of additional names to the suit to try and attain that class. Otherwise, each individual would have to file independent suits, and yes, prove they were harmed by the RCSC actions.

 

So is it mostly the number of plaintiffs that determine a class action? The wording of the judgement made me think the number was not an issue.

 

The number of plaintiffs is not necessarily the reason for a class action. The plaintiffs must prove there was harm done to a large group of people in order to get "class" status. I just happened to notice on the last filing, the plaintiff has added a bunch of names to the suit in an attempt to sway the decision in their favor.

 

I see there are notes to the effect that there were attorney changes with a change of address done on 04-03-19 "NOTE: Notice of Change of Address and Law Firm " There are no notes as to which attorneys changed, but I venture a guess it wasn't the plaintiffs.

 

I don't comment very often but I do read all of the TOSC posts. I do agree with your post Bill even though it was so long ago.

The post following yours by IndependentCynic quoted Rodney King which I thought was totally inappropriate.

Keep up the good work everyone!

 

I would like to comment on the lawsuit but have had a friend of mine visiting with his wife so I have been busy cleaning up and getting ready for medical month where I visit most of my doctors so they pay this month’s mortgage payment on the condo in Telluride.

That said, here is what I know from personal observation and reliable hearsay. Aside from the judge’s decision last September, he did continue the case as to class even though he pointed out to consul on both sides that some of the plaintiffs would be probably thrown out for various reasons. He did continue for discovery as to class to be argued at a later date. The other point to be argued is whether the PIF was a tax. The first point regarding class should be interesting because if you reread the amended compliant there is the possibility of four separate classes based the various allegations. My friends visiting are retired attorneys with serious chops, so I believe their interpretation. As for PIF, I believe that their are good arguments that it is not a tax because one, we are not a body politic with statutory taxing authority, QED for people who took geometry, how can it be a tax when RCSC has no taxing authority. As much as I hate to bring up reverse mortgages, the Feds never looked at it as a tax, but rather a fee for the specific purpose of capital improvements which only took two administrations and I believe three years.

Now for the hearsay part, the word is that the RCSC attorneys want to settle because the insurer is sick of legal fees. As I said before, only myself and a small circle of legal beagle friends understood this lawsuit and what was involved. Aside from a very in people in Sun City, nobody with any connections listened to me. As my old German grandmother used to say to me before a whack on the bottom when I was a small, if you don’t listen, you feel. Very smart woman and she helped to teach me how to cook. Real dumplings are made with potatoes, not flour. Those are like chewing a sponge.

 

Hey Jim welcome, good to see it, with the bride having been doing the "heavy lifting" all these years.

Fascinating take GdV. I've said often this lawsuit stuff is way over my pay grade. I have learned the better choice, all too often, is to make smart choices and avoid costly and dumb legal battles.

The one thing, as a board member, we were constantly assured of was this suit would never gain any traction. The argument was our documents prohibited it because "not everyone that bought here could be an owner." Seemed weak at best to me, but during my three years on the board, there was never a legitimate discussion of what the upside or downside potential was regarding T33. Management knew what they wanted, and as we have seen, they still are clinging to it.

The one thing we know from our history; the community and it's governing documents were created to insure a truly democratic process. The 100 person quorum with the potential membership meeting 4 times a year kept boards from doing dumb things. Once that changed, everything became easier and the board and management became a "protected class." It should never have happened...what's that old line from the commercial..."you can't fool mother nature." In this case, we should never have screwed with our documents and we wouldn't be where we are today.

And as always, no one will ever be held accountable.