Cultural Differences: Sun City (Original) versus Sun City West

Are there any cultural differences between these two communities? Philisophical differences? How about community governance - governed in the same manner?

 

Interesting question R and it promptly sent me to Webster for the definition of cultural. Knew what it was, but wanted to see if i was missing something in your question. I wasn't. The reality is our two communities are near on mirror images. SCW while newer, was built to try and replicate SC. Meeker was the biggest influence in those first three years, then he was let go. He wanted to make it even more spectacular than the original. The problem was as simple as the economy, with interest rates skyrocketing, home sales slowed to a trickle.

Once they got over the hump, sales took off, but by then the Webb Corp had sold off a third of SCW. It was going to be way bigger than Sun City and the original plot of land included what is now Sun City Grand and then some. It ended up being a third smaller with approximately 18,000 rooftops. Like Sun City, it has too many golf courses per capita and features smaller rec centers other than its primary one that is massive. Sadly, the site of the Sun Dome is now a Fry's grocery store and hence they don't have a performance venue like we do.

DEVCO made a better commitment to the related services (like PORA, The Visitor Center and Helping Hands) dumping in large sums of money and buildings that serve the community really well. The downside was they made the governing body (RCSCW) the ultimate authority behind enforcement of the CC&R's. PORA handles the complaints up until they can't get resolution then the RCSCW has to take it. The other big change was by then the RCSCW was responsible for the walls.

While people like to talk about the age of residents, i think there is more importance in the financial viability of the two communities. My guess is SC has a lower median income with more people living on the bubble of financial stability. I think SCW is more willing to step out and spend money on an agenda that is more progressive while SC is more steeped in traditional expenditures. Just my opinion, and we'll see how SC does in the coming years once we get beyond the all-golf/all the time mentality.

 

Bill, I greatly appreciate your thoughtful, detailed response with historical context. With regard to culture, it is funny that residents of each community claim the residents in their community are far friendlier than the other. I'm sure with 20,000+ residents in each, friendliness is situational and subject to local bias.

With regard to the golf issue, it appears that SCW is more progressive in acknowledging they have a problem (too many courses for a declining game) and looking at alternative uses for the courses and legal issues associated therein. They recognize they are competing against the newer communities that are more geared toward the next generation of retirees and also the need to market themselves to revenue generating retirees (golfers) to at least slow down the bleeding of having to subsidize golf. They recognize their private courses are struggling (it appears the one in SC may be on the precipice of failing, hence the sale of certain structures). Editorial comment: The elimination of the Tour Bus was a huge mistake at Sun City as it was a great way to promote the community and bring in those revenue generators that are necessary to sustain the 11 courses.

This golf issue is not going to go away at SCW or SC, hence the need for a plan. Golf courses throughout the country, including greater Phoenix, continue to close at an accelerating pace. Instead of beautiful courses, residents now look at overgrown waste lands and barb wire. To think the Sun Cities are exempt from current trends would be ignorant. To not have a plan is likewise ignorant. Change may take years because of legal and possible legislative issues (may take working with legislators to enact legislative change), so it is best to be ahead of the curve lest they have a huge problem of supporting greatly underutilized assets or worse start looking at waste lands. It appears SC governance has their heads in the sand trap and does not want to acknowledge or address the issue, which is going to require a long range plan. As I personally search for Masters tickets, my rant is not about about eliminating golf at Sun City, but preparing for the future. I hate to say this, but without a plan, Sun City is going to be a dinosaur and there are plenty of 55 communities able and ready to step in and fill the void. This type of change at Sun City will be a huge undertaking requiring courageous leadership and the time to start is now...before it is too late. Sun City is the Original and the Roman Empire, which failed while Nero continued to fiddle. Let's not look back in 10 years and say we had a great run...

 

If you ever read any of the sites detailing age restricted communities, you will almost always see where the poster thinks theirs is the best, has the friendliest people or the greatest amenities. It's why i try not to engage in those kinds of discussion (i have written we have the most at the least cost, but that doesn't make us "the best"). It is always subjective, hence they are most often just opinions. It's why i tend to approach it more historically, we do have the richest simply because we were the first of its kind.

I do think SCW is more objective regarding golf, but they too are "trapped" in trying to figure out how to proceed without being buried in the blizzard of costs they will face as their courses age. I just read yesterday in the Independent they are working out the details of coming improvements in water distribution, irrigation and wells. As i have said before, those factors are absolutes. Adding more tee boxes and pin placements and more challenging sand traps are a whole other discussion.

Unfortunately, it was never one we had. The decisions for full on remodels was made at the highest level and the boards simply blessed them. Adding in out buildings and the subsequent desert landscaping just piled costs on top of costs. Like i have said, 10 years from now, it might have been a brilliant move, or we may look back and rue the day we didn't invest less in golf and more in the community aspect of gathering spots and other attractions newer age restricted communities are shifting to.

I saw board president Delano wrote a column on whether a quorum/membership meeting mattered. Really? Guess it doesn't if you ignore the history of the community and believe 9 or 10 people should decide everything. At least in Sun City West they are willing to have open discussions on golf and the future direction they are headed in.

 

I believe the Long Range Planning Committee can do Sun City good if the Board allows them to the work of a Long Range Planning Committee. See attached their last meeting http://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/LRP-Summary-3-19-18.pdf "Assistant General Manager Chris Herring presented a report from management regarding Long Range Planning." The summary didn't say what only that he presented a report. Interesting in Board policy 27 should the majority of the members of a Standing Committee and Management disagree, the Board of Directors will make the final decision after hearing both sides of the matter." http://suncityaz.org/rcsc-board-policy-resolution-no-27/

This is something I found online that I agree with "A long-range plan is a set of goals (usually five to ten) that outlines the path for the company's future. When the long-range plan is in place, a strategic plan should be developed to define the objectives and actions necessary to achieve the goals spelled out in the long-range plan.long-range plan is a set of goals (usually five to ten) that outlines the path for the company's future. When the long-range plan is in place, a strategic plan should be developed to define the objectives and actions necessary to achieve the goals spelled out in the long-range plan."

It takes a positive team in the Community to implement change if needed and there are many smart and experienced individuals out there. The committees have lots to say if you listen. The Board Exchange is so important to the Community; it is the place for the Community to conduct Business with the Board and ask for a plan of action of implementation yea or nay. Online it gives members the opportunity to watch and give opinion. It may be exhausting at times but Einstein said “Never give up ...." The Community must always be proactive; if we don't someone else will do it for us guess who.....

 

Great comments Ida; that is exactly how it should work.Unfortunately we've strayed well away from that kind of a plan of attack. When i was interviewed for the committee i was asked how many should be on it? My response probably surprised them; the simple truth is the structure is way more important than who and how many are on it. If it's not built right, little else will matter.

 

What do you think should be the structure? I have no idea.

 

Let me get a little silly here and say we can avoid stupid mistakes, like say investing in a chain of blockbuster video stores in 2010 (they filed bankruptcy in 2011). By studying trends and looking to the future, the long range planning committee can do the leg work the board has elected not to do in the past. It's all about process and what i told the interview team was to insure they had committee members willing to do their homework. There's thousands of articles, sites and opportunities to take the work others have done and use it as the back drop. And, they need to look at the past to understand why Sun City has both endured and flourished.

Ida is right in her post: Just putting together a hard working committee isn't enough. Once they have a sense of direction, the real work comes in implementing it. A strategic plan includes a blueprint with the ability to measure outcomes. It is fluid and always subject to adjustment. The last 10 years is the classic example of how not to do it. The massive infusion of money into golf was done with little or not long range thought. We simply felt it was an amenity we should spend a fortune on. Like i have said several times; maybe it was right, maybe it was wrong. I would feel a whole lot better knowing it was done using subjective data rather than just someone's best guess.

 

Yes, Bill, there are thousands of articles pointing out that golf is declining, communities are being sadled with failing courses, and the new generation of retirees are looking for different amenities...namely walking trails and community centers. But don't take my word for it as I know very little. Here is a recent survey from topretirements.com who has no dog in the fight. Such survey lists the top amenities for which new retirees are seeking:

5. Ranking of amenities

Amenity
1. Walking trails
2. Fitness Center/Gym
3. Clubhouse/Community Center
4.Outdoor Swimming Pool
5. Indoor Swimming Pool
6. Clubs

Source:
https://www.topretirements.com/blog...op-reasons-for-selecting-a-55-community.html/

Sadly, SC is lacking in 2 of the top 3 amenities. Where does golf rank? Dead last. So let's invest more in it???

Sun City is a business that needs to market to the new consumer. As they say in business, adapt or die.

 

I know I would like walking trails. SC could really do a nice job of converting one or two golf courses using naturalized trees and plants that would eventually need very little water. Walking is important for maintaining good health. Yes, we can walk the streets or in a pool but in the good weather it would be so nice to walk trails. Maybe it will take someone else doing it first before SC takes the initiative. It shouldn't be that way...SC should be the leader.

If the planning committee comes out with a 10 year plan (or whatever they do) and there is no mention of the issue with the non-future of golf, it will be sickening. Residents can talk to the board, but who can talk to the planning committee? Do you think any of them follow this site?

 

Members can go to the Long Range Planning Committee meeting. Their next meeting is Monday, April 16, 2018 @ 9am at the Lakeview Board Room. For your information when the Recreational Centers were established the Golf Courses were deeded as Golf Courses and run with the land. Members who buy the property on golf courses expect them to stay golf courses.

 

If that is the only way to look at it, that homeowners would not like it, then in a sense we are subsidizing their view. And would the view be significantly different if they were made into walking trails? I don’t think so. They could still be beautiful..no one wants to add houses there. Anywhere you buy a house with a view or area near it, you know that might change.

Are those houses deeded with a guarantee of a golf course? You could say they paid more when they bought in but do they pay more for the upkeep? Is there an obligation to make deeded golf courses playable, meaning can RCSC just water them but not implement the expensive efforts to keep them playable...another possible choice.

Yes the golf courses are deeded, but deed usage change has already happened in other 55+ places. Should the community be handcuffed to a lifetime of paying upkeep for unused golf? This is not just an SC issue but an issue at other 55+ communities.

 

`It doesn't matter who is on the LRPC Cynthia, the RCSC has tied it's can to the 40 million dollar money train called golf and we are stuck with it. It was the worst of all scenario's; spend a fortune and hope it works out No long range plan, no strategic plan, no goals to insure there was a return on investment. And of course, no accountability.

Let me be clear, Sun City is tied to the golf courses through the deed restrictions. Those living on courses will never buy into it being anything other than a golf course. That said, shoving enormous sums of money at them was illogical. Maintaining/improving amenities is the boards charge, but perhaps a more thoughtful plan worked out in conjunction with community input would have made more sense.

I guess the real question becomes, will we learn anything from the error of our ways?

 

I have no doubt they would raise hell. It is time for the 95% not living on golf courses to raise hell as they are subsidizing their view for an amenity that is near the bottom of what new retirees want. Some compromise is in order.

 

When the private courses fail (and they will fail), the only options may be changing the deed restrictions (and it can be done) and changing the property utilization or stare at barb wire fences and decaying waste land that no one can use. You can't force a private enterprise to operate at a loss. Would the property owners on the golf course rather stare at the barb wire and waste land or a low maintenance park and walking trails that they can access from their back yard? Personally, I think that improves their home value and view.

 

You think I am kidding about the barbed wired chain link fences and waste land? Take a look down the road in Phoenix at what one Ahwatukee community has been facing for the past 5 years:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...hwatukee-golf-course-court-battle/1005138001/

 

I'm not there, Bill. There are ways to change the deed restrictions, but it is not easy and may take working with local government. Notice the above article references the City of Phoenix changing zoning laws to deal with the blight of closed golf courses. I know SCW's long term plan involves exploring alternative uses for the golf courses. If (when) the private courses fail, SC may not have a choice lest they face the eyesore Ahwatukee is facing. Bold and courageous leadership is required here...not the kind that rubber stamps multi-million dollar course changes and new out buildings. While I recognize the rights and desires of those living on a course, the other 95% not living on a course are having their property values suppressed and diminished as the community is not supplying the amenities new retirees want. The Long Range Planning Committee needs to explore alternative uses for the golf courses and how it could be achieved. Yes, the vocal minority is going to kick and scream, but that is where the bold and courageous leadership steps up and looks at the big picture and the future. Rubber stamping the status quo in the face of a rapidly changing environment is not bold and courageous.

 

I never thought you were kidding R. I know the game and if there is good news, it is the private courses that will eventually be forced to make the hard decisions. As they go under, it just means more play for the RCSC courses. And once the ugly is done, and the land is sold off for development it means more houses. The point being for the short term, the RCSC will be just fine as long as we hold them accountable on balanced budgets and not hiding how they spend money on golf.

Most people reading this weren't here back in 2003. We had just moved here and the RCSC was trying to rewrite one of the documents regarding their golf courses. I remember it well as hundreds showed up at a member exchange ready for blood. The word was they were trying to alter the deed restrictions and the meeting got out of hand quickly. No question, it's what the future holds as the future of our courses is determined.

Finally, i drove past the clubhouse for the Union Hills Country Club today. Damn, the entire grounds/grass was dead and brown across the front of the property. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

 

Quite possible, E. The residents were fighting against the golf course owner redeveloping the property with 270 homes. I think they want to control their destiny as to what replaces the golf course as they must approve any changes to the deed restrictions. I have read some residents favor a park. The golf course will likely default on their debt and there will be a foreclosure. It will be messy and the 5 year blight continues. Caveat Emptor for anyone buying on a golf course these days.

 

While I truly have no idea what is going on, it looks to me like they are in financial trouble and selling any assets they can, while living within the letter of their deed restrictions to keep the course "running". This likely will only to be temporal as a golf course without a clubhouse is not long for the world. Another Ahwatukee in the making???