Could we look like bigger schmucks than this?

A letter I am thinking of sending to Rusty Bradshaw. Let me know what you think. Off to work.

The Fear Mongering Continues


Some of you out there in RCSC land may have received an email stating dire consequences if a specific piece of legislation is not passed. The email further orders you to contact your legislator and add your voice to the bill, HB2374. Let us do get to the truth of this piece of “legislation”.

With the pending lawsuit between Ann Randall Stewart and the RCSC, the judge ruled that the RCSC does in fact meet the qualifications of being a “planned community”.

What does this mean to you and I? The positives are pretty amazing. Open board meetings with direct input from the members. Meeting details with agendas posted at least five days in advance. No more edicts handed down from behind closed doors which have an affect on all of us, but were not allowed to add or get additional information on.

There will be no loss of the age overlay, as it resides with SCHOA. It is a Federally Mandated edict, followed up by Arizona Revised Statute 44-1491. The RCSC can not affect the age overlay, and neither can this contrived piece of “legislation”.

There would be a need to rename the Corporate Documents to the Community Documents, but no big deal really.

Here is where the fear mongering really gets to a fever pitch. Persons under the age of 55 can purchase property and are then deemed owners. Owners get to vote. But the Community Documents dictate that no underage owner can use the facilities or live in the community if they are under the age of 55. There also exists protections listed about what to do with underage owners. So, there will not be a bunch of 10 year olds running around the RCSC, trying to take over the pools and the golf courses.

Let us look at the possibilities of open meetings where members are a part of the discussion and are encouraged to participate. Let’s talk about agenda ‘s being published 5 days before the meeting for the perusal as to allow for an informed electorate. Let’s add the bonus of having elections ballots mailed to every home, so the elections process becomes more involved and interactive. Finally, and here is a big one – The annual meeting still has a quorum of 1000, but the votes can be voted absentee or by proxy. This means the quorum can still be met based upon the number of votes not the number of bodies. And the really big deal about this one is that an agenda was published prior to the meeting to allow for an informed membership vote, and allow for proxies and absentee ballots to be cast. This is why SCW can have an annual meeting and the RCSC can’t.

So, do not let the scary things the General Manager is threatening the community with take your eyes off the prize. The RCSC and the General Manager need to embrace the future of the RCSC as a Planned Community and welcome the membership to participate with the governing process. I promise, it won’t be a awful as you folks try to paint it. If it works for all of the other age restricted communities, it can surely be incorporated into the RCSC.

For those of you which read the previous, non edited, thread, I removed some items which would be considered "hearsay". I can make comments using my own name and likeness about "suspected" actions or deeds, but I cannot publish in a newspaper my "thoughts" as fact. I do not have copies of any of the documents from the solar deal, as when I left the board, I destroyed all of that information as non relevant. Even if I had kept all of the documents, there were many items which the board was not privy to, so I wouldn't have copies of them anyway.

Listed below, a few frames down is the completed copy of the letter I intend to send to Rusty, and see if it will get published. It sticks with what is known, based upon the way SCW, GRAND, and other communities governed under the planned communities, lead and govern. I make every effort to remove the "fear" out of having an open board meeting with members being welcomed versus vilified or ignored. Thanks folks, have a great evening.

 

I think it is fantastic, Carole, and extremely well written! Please send!!

 

Great letter, be careful.

 

I like it. But as BP cautioned, be careful... we need your voice!

 

As of approximately 5 am this morning, there were 742 views on this thread and only 9 contributors (usually the same suspects).
As of 12:30 today there were 828 views and the same 9 contributors.
This to me seems to say that people are interested in this topic, but they are not willing to contribute to the discussion.

Any, years ago when the law suit was first filed by ARS there was complete disdain and revulsion that a Sun City Resident would dare to
sue the RCSC. Making the RCSC conform to title 33 was not in the best interest of Sun City as seen by many of the people who have
commented on this thread. Probably because they had no idea what Title 33 would mean to the residents to Sun City. and as of this
writing they still have no idea. At this point it is all complete speculation.

Will the judge rule that Sun City will have to fall under Titler 33? No one konws.
What will be the cost to Sun City Residents if the RCSC is forced to follow Title 33? No one knows.
What does this mean for individuals who are not 55 and buy a house in Sun City? No one knows.

Everything in this thread is pure speculation.

No one has a clear understanding of the implications of Title 33.

Whether you agree or not, a Lawyer is probably the only one whop can answer the above questions.

As far as the 2 emails that came out about sending emails to the individuals listed in the email to support this bill, i would
suggest that if you do not like this bill you send an email to those same individuals registering your OPPOSITION.

The fact that there was a correction to the original email enforces the fact that emails are not reviewed before being sent out.
A pure out and out lack of control of communications. This is not the first instance of corrections to emails that have been sent.
There has been an epidemic of corrected emails.

The board has given complete control to the GM and this will not change until the masses get involved and force the board to do their job
and not pass the buck to the GM. Will that happen? Probably not.

You may not have liked it, but ARS had the gumption to file suit for something she believed in. She did not start a thread on this forum
or any other that I am aware of to force the RCSC to change. She used the judicial process to try and accomplish change.

If you think you can change the boards thinking by using this forum, I've got a beach front property to sell you in the Sonoran desert.

 

It would then also appear that the Board and Management have pursued a life altering path of governance based on pure speculation and without a fair hearing of its membership and perhaps without even a vote of the Board. Signed, Yours Truly, The Usual Suspect.

 

The Fear Mongering Continues


Some of you out there in RCSC land may have received an email stating dire consequences if a specific piece of legislation is not passed. The email further orders you to contact your legislator and add your voice to the bill, HB2374. Let us do get to the truth of this piece of “legislation”.

With the pending lawsuit between Ann Randall Stewart and the RCSC, the judge ruled that the RCSC does in fact meet the qualifications of being a “planned community”.

What does this mean to you and I? The positives are pretty amazing. Open board meetings with direct input from the members. Meeting details with agendas posted at least five days in advance. No more edicts handed down from behind closed doors which have an affect on all of us, but were not allowed to add or get additional information on.

There will be no loss of the age overlay, as it resides with SCHOA. It is a Federally Mandated edict, followed up by Arizona Revised Statute 44-1491. The RCSC can not affect the age overlay, and neither can this contrived piece of “legislation”.

There would be a need to rename the Corporate Documents to the Community Documents, but no big deal really.

Here is where the fear mongering really gets to a fever pitch. Persons under the age of 55 can purchase property and are then deemed owners. Owners get to vote. But the Community Documents dictate that no underage owner can use the facilities or live in the community if they are under the age of 55. There also exists protections listed about what to do with underage owners. So, there will not be a bunch of 10 year olds running around the RCSC, trying to take over the pools and the golf courses.

Let us look at the possibilities of open meetings where members are a part of the discussion and are encouraged to participate. Let’s talk about agenda ‘s being published 5 days before the meeting for the perusal as to allow for an informed electorate. Let’s add the bonus of having elections ballots mailed to every home, so the elections process becomes more involved and interactive. Finally, and here is a big one – The annual meeting still has a quorum of 1000, but the votes can be voted absentee or by proxy. This means the quorum can still be met based upon the number of votes not the number of bodies. And the really big deal about this one is that an agenda was published prior to the meeting to allow for an informed membership vote, and allow for proxies and absentee ballots to be cast. This is why SCW can have an annual meeting and the RCSC can’t.

So, do not let the scary things the General Manager is threatening the community with take your eyes off the prize. The RCSC and the General Manager need to embrace the future of the RCSC as a Planned Community and welcome the membership to participate with the governing process. I promise, it won’t be as awful as the RCSC folks try to paint it. If it works for all of the other age restricted communities, it can surely be incorporated into the RCSC.

Let's have the RCSC come out from the shadows of shadowy management, and have real, open dialogue with the board and the membership. Allow open and two way communication among the members during board meetings. Wouldn't it be refreshing to know what is being discussed real time rather than after the fact? I feel it would be fantastic to watch the video of a real meeting of members discussing the topics of the day, those that were presented on an agenda five days prior to the meeting. What we have now is a board member, usually the President, telling a member the board will take it under advisement then it is swept under the rug. Imagine being able to really ask what the intentions are and to expect an answer in real time, right now.

This is your time to take a stand and make Sun City a growing, vibrant community of openness and communications. No scary demons here, just the honest truth. Please say "NO" to the attempt to keep the RCSC in the days of OZ and open the curtains to open community communications. It really is for the benefit of our community.

 

Interesting comments above from SCR, good thing i love you like a brother or i would take those comments personally. Seems to me both Carole and I have gone far beyond "writing a few words" about the matter. Serving on the board and speaking out as the minority position was a thankless and tiresome process. I could list the dozen other things i have done in the community and still am doing, but what's the point eh?

Nope, don't applaud ARS, she has cost every one of us and this community a fortune and it will continue. Her goal, if it was simply to get the RCSC to follow T33, would have been laudable.
Unfortunately she wanted revenge, not what is right for the community. If you have read her rantings or the court filings, she wanted to see the PIF go away. She wanted financial remuneration that would have cost Sun City its future.

The tragedy here is that we have ignored the history of what took place in Sun City West. They faced an ugly court battle in the late 90's and early 2000's when the SCWOG folks were stirring the pot for a more open process of governance. Calmer, cooler heads prevailed and they adopted T33. It was a win/win as the angst settled and they figured it out. By opening meetings and working with the community life got easier. Here is the simple reality: We (the RCSC) has nothing to hide and no reason to work behind closed doors, it is our community and we elect the board to represent us. I understand why the GM prefers T10, but given where we are today, we would have been far better off to have just embraced T33, as a couple of us suggested, and we could have/would have been in a way better place if the suit ever would have even been presented to the court.

There i go again, just more words. But as you pointed out SCR, people are reading/following this thread and that fact alone is worth the time and energy. Knowledge is never to be taken lightly, we have way too little of it these days.

 

I would think by now, the "words" would be rather indicative of what kind of an outcome could be found with the adoption of T33. Look at other communities, how the operate within an open framework, and it is amazing how well these places are governed and managed. A good predictor of future behavior is a look at current and past behavior. For the T33 communities, it is an open book for all to view and we could use their expertise to emulate what they have accomplished. For the RCSC, it is more of the same old closed door meetings, handing out crumbs of information, sanitized, to be spoon fed to the few who pay attention.

I don't need an attorney to tell me what the future of RCSC could look like if the GM and the management team let go of their control. I know the kind of control the GM exercises when performing her functions, as I, as well as Bill, was in the "inner sanctum" of the smoke and mirrors. What happened to the second dog park which was funded and approved by the board while I was in my second year on the board? Does anyone see a second dog park? Can you say snow job! A million reasons why it couldn't happen, but it still remains, to this day an approved item the GM does not want to move forward with.

The LRPC? Let's fill out a survey as to the needs of the community. Twenty minutes later, the LRPC is gone and I am asking what the heck just happened? Well planned and orchestrated, controlled to the very last straw.

Once the GM has made up her mind as to the direction the board will take, that is the direction it goes. Had there been a case of a board member allegedly breaking and entering into an office and spying on a candidate while Bill and I were on the board, and I am sure the roof would have fell in around us. The "contingent" would have made sure to leak the news everywhere and also make sure it appeared to be one of the three "non conformists" who did it. Fast forward several years, and this action occurs, and the GM allegedly tells the perpetrator don't let it happen again. HUH?

As for ARS and her "redeeming qualities", I suspect you mean beyond the Playboy spread from the 60's. She has always wanted to make the RCSC pay for her babbling brook that was cemented over. It is for her ego and to be declared to be "right". She could care less about this community, only how she can destroy it financially.

The GM appears to the greatest threat to the well being of the community right now with her desire to pass legislation that is not needed and for the most part, not valid. Another ego, not willing to compromise and see the greater good for the community. The community and its members are going to suffer because of the egos of two women wanting to control the other. How pathetic is that.

 

From The Hunt for Red October, Admiral Painter (Fred Thompson):

"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."​

In the case of the RCSC, perhaps not. As long as the BOD/Management continues to throw the community enough bones to keep them from reaching the critical mass of a revolt, the situation will likely continue indefinitely. This is a common tactic by politicians, corporations, and many others who are in charge. They can easily control a community by restricting information and disseminating half truths, thus averting those wishing change from reaching critical mass.

When the RCSC speaks the entire community receives their message. They completely control the information most members receive -- eg, Sun Views, INFO emails, bulletin board postings, etc. Imagine if someone with an alternate view wanted to email an informational news release to the same list the GM just did. What is the chance the RCSC would release the distribution list? NONE! You can say alternate views can be presented at a exchange message, but what percentage of the membership attend these meeting/watch the video? A minuscule number I'd guess.

This is why T33 conformance is so necessary. The community needs transparency for it to be able to provide the oversight the founding documents intended. This forum reaches, as SCR has alliterated, an extremely small piece of the SC community. The RCSC has no reason to want to be transparent -- their well-being is threatened when they have to be forthright. So, to protect their right to not be completely open and honest, they have enacted policies which preclude disseminating information, collecting petition signatures, etc. on "their" property. They've raised the quorum to preclude a member meeting ever being effective. These are huge hurdles to overcome without T33. And THAT's probably why they are fighting so hard the avoid it.

 

Okay, lots of great discussion here. So, what can we do to help this matter along? We as a collective do not have access to the email blasts to send our message out in the same fashion as the RCSC did. We do not have the ability to post flyers, nor can we collect signatures to start a petition. What is there available for us to do in order to get the message about the benefits of T33 out there?

This is not a rhetorical question. Jan has all of the marbles, what can the rest of us do to take this discussion a step above?

I can send my letter to Rusty, but it won't get published until who knows when. I can't attend the member exchange, as I am taking a friend to see the cancer doctor for his first visit. I am saving my personal time to be of support to him.

A sit in at the GM's office? All 8 of us? What venue do we, the keepers of truth, have to get our message out there? What options are available for us to participate in the anti political legislation movement? We have talked the salient points enough to have a great format from which to work from. So, how can we get the sane message out there?

Can someone report the food truck driver to the ACC and get that ball rolling? I will send my letter to the paper, perhaps additional letters would help? What else is available as a venue to get the T33 message out in front of those who would be a supportive group, willing to be a countermeasure to the RCSC rhetoric?
Any ideas with the limited options left to us?

It is time to be a movement of action. What can we, as supporters of T33 do to help our community grow and become an open communication venue which benefits all members? Any ideas!

 

Sorry....I cringe at language like what is above. Remember the saying "When they go low....we go high?". I know these issues can make one outraged but name calling only ramps up emotions and does nothing to help solve the problem. Maybe it was just the way I was raised.

We'll know more about the fate of HB2374 after the proceedings in the AZ House this morning.

 

Language changed, hope this takes the chills off of your skin. thnks

 

Sorry...I think this is a leap too far. His family has a food truck. Businesses, events, organizations need to book food truck services. People like to use the services of people they know or are from their area. Need more info before I'd jump into this....See the article regarding food trucks here:

https://ij.org/press-release/arizon...eing-food-trucks-to-operate-across-the-state/

 

CMartinez - Getting the message out there. Getting the message out there regarding T33 and how it is a benefit to Sun City as opposed to a liability is an obstacle as the residents of Sun City have by lack of participation given complete control to the GM and then the Board. We can debate that fact forever, but statistical facts will show that the residents only care about what they can get for free.

I think writing to the Independent is a good idea, as it it distributed to 22,000 homes in Sun City and Youngtown.
"The Sun City Independent is distributed free every week to 22,000 homes in Sun City and Youngtown. It’s the oldest weekly newspaper opening in 1960 the year Sun City established."

Unless the Independent is controlled by the RCSC there is no reason they cannot publish the non legalese intent of T33 and its implication to Sun City both legally and what it would cost the residents. What it costs the residents is the biggest concern to residents. I don't believe the majority of people in Sun City care one way or the other whether we are governed by T10 or T33 as long as it doesn't cost them any money.

But, before you take ideas on how to get the message out there, be aware that the enemy (RCSC and GM) are watching. If you think they are not the enemy you are sadly mistaken. The board and/or the GM have asked you to send emails to legislators saying you agree with bill HB2374. They cite scare tactics to make you believe that T33 will cost residents and the RCSC billions.
Completely untrue. The RCSC has more than enough money in the bank to deal with any costs associated with T33. As for residents, I still haven't seen any mention of what it is going to cost each and every homeowner in Sun City to be governed by T33.

Everything on this forum is complete supposition. NO ONE - especially me - has a clue as to the true meaning of T33.
What will it cost me? Don't know. Does anyone?
What will it cost the RCSC? Don't know. Does anyone?
What will it mean to the RCSC regarding meeting? Don't Know? Does anyone?
How will this affect the quorum? Don't know. Does anyone?
How does it affect the age overlay? Don't know. Does anyone?

The above questions quickly come to mind, but I am sure there are many more.

Whatever your stand on T33 and how you approach getting the info out there, you are being watched and anything you suggest will be ammunition for the board/GM to put up obstacles.

I will say though that using the Independent is probably one of the safest things you can do. Because of lack of resident participation, the board/GM have hamstrung the residents from conducting any polls, meetings, or informational meetings on Sun City premises.

Asking the independent to do a complete analyses of T33 and its impact on Sun City is probably a great idea but may be met with resistance from the board/GM.
They don't want you to know that if forced to conform to T33 they will lose control and give it back to the residents.
Will the residents get involved - highly unlikely.

I know the most involved on this forum believe the ARS lawsuit was a bad thing, but in my mind it has brought about renewed interest in T33.

I know this is highly controversial, but unless you can get the masses of Sun City informed and involved, nothing will change. It will take a judges order to force T33.

 

You ask about costs, here is some ideas I have. The actual cost to jump from T10 to T33 is time spent redoing documents. The next cost, around $75,000 a year for mailings, to include the postage, paper and envelopes. Chump change in the big scheme of things.

Now here is my supposition, pure speculation, but a plausible theory none the less. The RCSC will claim all kinds of expense to defend against the lawsuit, whether they win or lose. Instead of just settling early on and being done with this, it has been drug out to great lengths, I suspect, for some reasons. The first supposition is that to cover the cost and overruns of many of the projects under way or recently completed. A great way to divert attention from one flashing light is to present another flashing light on the other side of the room. The original light is still on and there, you just had your eyes diverted to a different light, that's all.

The second is the solar costs. My supposition is to create a big ruckus over a slight of hand issue on the left, then, when everyone is watching the left, sneak in the costs under the napkin in plain sight. Those are going to be some really expensive costs, so just tack them into the left hand ruckus, make sure to keep the noise going and let the chips fall where they may. Eventually you can blame all of the costs on the suit.

If the RCSC loses the suit, they can blame all of the costs defending themselves. If they win, they can claim all of the cost was worth it to have a victory.

So, how much to convert to T33, about $75,000.

 

"In the Court’s view, the obligation to pay assessments equates to membership on a per-property basis for the purposes of the Act. The obligation to pay assessments to RCSC under the threat of foreclosure is true for all residential property owners, including those that RCSC considers ineligible for a Member Card. The Court rejects RCSC’s “condominium” argument for reasons stated in the Reply."

"The obligation to pay assessments is expressly set forth in the Facilities Agreements that RCSC and its predecessors have required owners to sign as a condition of purchasing property in Sun City. (A copy of a typical Facilities Agreement is attached as Exhibit 2 to plaintiffs’ statement of facts.) These Facilities Agreements are regularly recorded and run with the property. Even if the Facilities Agreement is not recorded, an owner must sign a Facilities Agreement as a condition to purchase or transfer.1 The Act applies to planned communities. Sun City is a planned community."

"IT IS ORDERED that plaintiffs’ motion for partial summary judgment on the claim that RCSC is subject to the Act is granted."

A court order is an official proclamation by a judge (or panel of judges) that defines the legal relationships between the parties to a hearing, a trial, an appeal or other court proceedings. Such ruling requires or authorizes the carrying out of certain steps by one or more parties to a case.

So, after doing a lot of reading, breaking out my Black's Law Dictionary, and searching other definitions and cases, the motion by ARS to have the RCSC declared a planned community was granted. The judged "Ordered the motion" that RCSC is subject to the planned communities act. There would have been a 90 day window for the RCSC to have appealed the decision, but that window has come and gone. So, the RCSC is currently bound by the order, and is deemed, by the courts to be under Title 33, Planned Communities Act.

Yet, none of us have seen the changes made. So now the RCSC would be in contempt of court, and could face sanctions by the judge. This failure to adhere to the order can also place the rest of the suit at risk, offering a summary judgement to the plaintiff to the tune of millions of dollars.

The RCSC has placed a huge gamble with this legislation, as even if it is passed, the Judge can overrule it. Once overruled, if the RCSC still does not comply, fines can be assessed, dating back to the original ruling date of 09-04-18. Again, costing the RCSC millions of dollars.

The RCSC would be better advised to start to adhere to the PCA immediately until such time there is a final judgement stating they are not bound by the Judges orders.

The costs to the RCSC are going to be staggering, the GM should be looking at ways to mitigate these effects immediately. Instead, she is placing the RCSC in a possible suit award in the multi-million dollar range, to the detriment of us all.

 

This is not a reply or rebuttal or view point of any kind but rather additional information since I haven't seen it discussed. Title 33-1806 is basically about Planned Communities under T33 and the obligation of the association to supply to a purchaser of a property certain information and the fee that the Planned Community can charge for that information. The association can charge currently up to $400.00 for supplying the information and either the purchaser or the seller will pay that fee at the closing of the transaction. In Sun City there are an estimated 200 ownership transfers a month of some form or another and for the sake of simplicity lets say there is a $400.00 fee collected on all 200. If my HP12C is still calculating correctly that is $80,00.00 per month or close to a million annually. So with all that is going on regarding the discussions around RCSC going from a T10 to a T33 does any of the above come into play? T10 associations do not supply the information referred to so there is no fee. Will real estate transactions in Sun City now be saddled with another cost of up to $400.00 each when that has not been the case in the past?

 

Gary, in response to your statement in regards to transfer fees, straight from the RCSC website:

Transfer Fee – $300/occurrence

A Transfer Fee shall be imposed on the purchase, acquisition, transfer, inheritance, gift or any change in ownership of legal or beneficial interest in the title to property located in Sun City, Arizona pursuant to any deed, contract for sale, will or other instrument or document transferring an interest in such property, so long as the original payer of said Transfer Fee no longer retains a majority ownership interest in the property.

This fee is charged on every transaction the RCSC does, not including the PIF fee,

 

Carol.....I am not referring to the Transfer Fee. Read through 33-1806..that outlines the required disclosure info required and the fee allowed to be charged by the association.