Could we look like bigger schmucks than this?

Too bad, i cannot find the article online, but in this past weeks copy of the Independent, there was a story by Rusty Bradshaw entitled "Bill to exempt rec centers from law." Ouch, it was damned painful to read and more embarrassing to have to acknowledge we (Sun City) is that far behind the curve as a community built by and for the people.

The RCSC has apparently gone out and rounded up a local legislator to submit a bill exempting Sun City from falling under the Planned Communities Act, Title 33, of the state statutes. The latest court ruling found, at least at first blush, in favor of the plaintiffs that the community should be governed by it rather than Title 10.

The article is quite long and worth the read. Anyone following this case or even these pages know several of us have longed for the day we would have to function in a more open process of governance. We know it would come at a small financial cost, but the end product would be greater transparency and an enhanced sense of community.

Our general manager has been dead set against it; an argument we had several times while i served on the board. Board members are always quick to jump on her bandwagon and consequently nothing has ever changed. This may be the straw that breaks the camels back, as Sun City may eventually be forced to embrace the change.

The reason you need to read the article is simple. Rusty solicited comments from both community (Sun City and Sun City West) spokespersons and the differences are staggering. Our responses were the typical tripe about the doom and gloom that would befall Sun City should we be forced to fall under Title 33. I cringed when i read the pathetic claims of the community collapsing should we become captives of an open process of governance.

On the other hand, Sun City West, who voluntarily elected to be Title 33 compliant years ago, approached it from a far more practical manner. Katy O'Grady, RCSCW general services manager had this to say: "Because of this (Title 33), our owners have the right to attend the board's public meetings, and we follow the open meeting requirements under the planned communities statutes. This does protect home owners and ensures access to the board's proceedings, as well as most associations records."

Wow, killer commentary! There's plenty more that is just outright damning to the RCSC's ludicrous arguments but perhaps none more so than this comment by Katy: " I can't imagine our residents would want us to to discontinue following many of the provisions in the planned community statutes in Title 33. We pride ourselves in the our openness and transparency. We expect to to continue openness and transparency regardless of the bill's success or failure at the legislature."

If you can get your hands on the article, it is well worth the read.

 

Hey Bill - the article can be found online on page A1 at: http://suncityindependent.az.newsmemory.com/

 

Thanks aggie, well done yet again. I was talking to a guy this morning after i posted this thread and he said he read the article in full and was totally lost. Most people have no clue about what any of this means, tragic. The ability to reach and educate those living here is often an exercise in futility. It would be helpful if those in power believed in the importance of talking about more than the golf courses, rec centers and clubs, but it is what it is.

 

Open meetings should be pushed for and demanded by the board members themselves, to allow for true dialogue in reference to the needs of the residents and the corporation. The board members should be very vocal as to the need to open meetings at every meeting they have, to entice the community to want to be involved rather than stagnate in apathy. If this board truly believes any of the rhetoric it espoused during the candidate forums, it is their obligation to make sure information and meetings are open and available to all members at every meeting. Anger curbed

 

Just a bit of anger I'm noting here. I think there's room for big improvements in communication and transparency but our Sun City is still such a place of peace, safety, opportunities, cleanliness and affordability. I look forward to seeing how the new members on the BOD shape the coming year.

Sun City West is smaller in area and population. They are playing catch up because they didn't start collecting a PIF sooner. They now charge $3500 for each sale. We'll have to see how things go with the recent hiring of a new General Manager. One error or misunderstanding in the Daily News article is that all owners in Sun City West are automatically members and pay a fee to use the facilities. This is only partially true as EACH owner who wishes to use RCSCSCW facilities is currently charged a membership fee of $465 annually. For example, one spouse-owner may pay the $465 fee for a membership but the other owner-spouse does not have to purchase a membership. The non membership spouse cannot use RCSCSCW facilities as a guest as they must purchase an annual card.

 

Here are Sun City West fees https://suncitywest.com/imagesNew/pdfs/Fees.pdf also on Sun City Web site for commonly asked questions: http://www.suncitywest.org/documents/Commonly Asked Questions.pdf indicates "Q. What is the cost of using the Recreation Centers? A. All property owners pay a mandatory annual Recreation Center Membership Fee, currently $420 (Currently $465) per person, per year. This fee covers access to all recreational amenities. Golf and bowling fees are paid when participating."

 

While the fees are an issue between the two communities, the real issue being discussed her is the openness of communication between the governing board and the homeowners. "Because of this (Title 33), our owners have the right to attend the board's public meetings, and we follow the open meeting requirements under the planned communities statutes. This does protect home owners and ensures access to the board's proceedings, as well as most associations records." "I can't imagine our residents would want us to to discontinue following many of the provisions in the planned community statutes in Title 33."

Sun City needs to take pride in the open meetings, to allow for the protection of the members and to keep them informed. "Our general manager has been dead set against it; an argument we had several times while i served on the board. Board members are always quick to jump on her bandwagon and consequently nothing has ever changed." The doom and gloom eschewed by the RCSC GM over what will happen if Title 33 were to become effective in Sun City is actually laughable. We are told of the escalating costs to participate with Title 33 for postage and envelopes. Yet, it is okay to run millions in over spending on golf shacks.

If there were ever a community needing open meetings and engaging the public, it is Sun City. We are a great village to live in, but to get the residents involved on a local level in other governmental issues besides golf, would be an amazing thing to shape and direct the future of Sun City

 

To answer Bill’s Question in the Original Post: No!

 

The cost argument against following Title 33 is like arguing against democracy on the basis of the extra cost of our voting system. Democracy and freedom come with a price. Management and The Board want to deprive us of our rights to further their Oligarchy. This is truly oppressive and against the fundamental tenants of a democracy.

 

I’m wondering how much of OUR time and resources have and will be spent on this bill to oppress the very people who provide these resources. This is the very definition of paying to get screwed.

 

Tracy, of the Dog Park Fame, sent me the article today and what I got out of it was,
"Oh let's pass a law that says we don't have to follow the law."
Bill mentioned the interesting replies that Rusty got to his questions, to me the most telling one was that the legislator (R-Peoria) who proposed the bill did not answer Bradshaw's email. More government transparency?

 

Interesting comments gang, love the fact we can talk about the unspeakable on this site. My take, for what it is worth is, Payne's bill will go nowhere. It is political pandering at its worst.

What the article wasn't able to do was answer some of the questions that arose. Carole is right, as a board we were told there would be additional costs under Title 33, primarily for mailings due to having to send notice to members. In the article the RCSC implied they would be forced to change documents regarding buyers who were under age or who lived within the 75 mile radius. I'm not sure how that plays out, but clearly Sun City West has found their way around or through these issues. And so we are clear, yes Sun City West has higher yearly fess, but i hope Ida wasn't inferring it was all because of Title 33.

Let me take this to a wholly different level and ask you to put yourself in a time capsule of sorts. Let's flashback to the year before the Long Range Planning committee was kicked to the curb. It was during these times the documents were being changed and the media was told they were no longer allowed to be present during committee meetings. I want you to think in these terms: If we had been under Title 33 at the time, would any or all of those things been able to happen? Would the massive amount of PIF dollars shoved at golf been able to be passed? Would we have been able to shift from an all-golf/all-the-time strategy to one where we had a legitimate discussion on whether the Lakes Club should have been a priority?

My point is this: Would Sun City look and feel different than it does today if we had been operating under rules that forced the RCSC to function more openly? It's an interesting question and one we can only guess at an answer to; however, we can make a hell of an argument as we move forward the community is better served when we are more open and there is greater input than the GM and board making all the decisions.

 

I guess my point is that the RCSC activities, clubs, sports and meetings shouldn't be the whole focus of life in Sun City. I look at the RCSC and the fees associated with it as taxes due for recreation/parks. There are so many in Sun City that never set foot in the centers or amenities. I do attend meetings and have served on many committees because I like to stay informed. More information on how decisions are arrived at would be beneficial. The new BOD needs to take steps to be more open and responsive to member inquiries.


It's also important to keep abreast of activities of our Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, the Arizona Corporation Commission and our Arizona Legislature now in session. The bills being considered now are SB1001, HB2374, HB2087 & HB2536. The decisions made by these entities and especially on these bills will affect all of us.

 

Thank You Aggie for the references and the associated legislative activity. There is some mighty scary stuff contained within these measures, especially HB2536 being deemed "an emergency". This, in my opinion allows home schooled children to take advantage of programs others are paying for. Nothing against home schooling, but it is costing our school districts revenue from the Federal Government and now they are begging for more free education under the auspices of "home schooling" and going to college at the same time on the public dime.

To completely shut down access to opiate drugs to all, because a few folks know how to game the system is overkill. Then to punish all doctors for prescribing these medications is over the top. The real drug epidemic is in the homemade and imported drugs being smuggled into this country. A border wall will not stop drug smuggling as it is not carried in by "coyotes on their backs". The truly dangerous and toxic stuff is being brought in by US cartels and their constituents.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? Overkill. Pay off some PAC or politician to get your way, and kill the true process of governing. I will use a word I used previously, and it is "Fiefdom" The General Manager and the management team have decided for all of the Sun City residents they shall not have access to information that could be of benefit to them for the here and now and for the future.

Had the Long Range Planning Committee not been killed off, where would be? Well for one, the negotiations for the Lakes Club would have taken a significantly different turn to include the entire committee and not had the decision made by a single manager. The power of the committee would have been to investigate and make suggestions as to the real value of the property, pre and post renovation. The committee could have suggested alternatives sums or lease ideas which were never considered because one person made it her mission to be vague, non-confiding, and eventually advising it just wasn't possible because of her lack of contact with one person at Banner.

Would we already have a theater at the Mountainview Rec Center, I do believe so, because the millions poured into golf courses could have been done over a 10 year period, and perhaps the golf building and their huge overruns would have been identified as well if we had open communications about the governing of the RCSC.

I know it sounded like sounding a false alarm, but do be sure, the need to keep the elections committee going in light of the single handed direction of the management team is not that far fetched. Why would you seek the best candidates out there, hold public elections, then not have the public privy to what is being done, supposedly on their behalf. Spoon feed droplets of information which appear to be useful, but behind closed doors, monies are being spent, club space is being given away, defrauding the process, as well as redirecting desired amenities away from those which have long sought to have them.

The long range planning was killed in order to serve a significant special interest. Had we had open meetings, mailed flyers to the membership, and open discussion, yes, this community would be significantly different from where it was 8 years ago.

The cost to mail and advertise meetings, nil. The cost to this community for closed door, not public meetings has been great. And it will get worse as the information about the lease for the solar and its costs are disclosed. Open meetings keep the Board and the RCSC honest, something to think about as we move forward.

 

HB2536 is a bill that calls for increased gasoline taxes, taxes on alternate fuels for vehicles and a new annual tax on alternate fuel vehicles with the revenue to be used for highway repair and infrastructure. I'd be in favor of increased gas taxes but not in addition to the new $32 registration "fee".

Not sure this bill HB2536 has anything to do with home schooling or opiates.

 

Could be I didn't click on AZ when I searched for the bill #. OOPS, my bad

 

Think about this: The lawsuit has been a drain for quite a while now and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight. One can only speculate had the board pushed to adopt Title 33 years back if the suit would ever have been filed. The one thing for sure is, had we done it before it was filed, it would have taken most of the wind from their sails. Spending money on the community rather than legal fees would have been far more appealing to almost everyone living here.

 

The other side of this coin is not just the lawsuit, but the entire process of dealing with the issues at hand.

There is,once again, a meeting about the state of the RCSC. We can't approve the last minutes from the last meeting because a quorum can not be attained. Let's ask how many years has this gone on? Worse yet, how much longer will it continue to go on, because of a singular persons belief that the quorum should not be lowered. All done in the interest of keeping ARS at bay. The board asked about lowering the quorum and was given a vague description of how it was arrived at. If it is not working for the community to be able to participate in the process, then it needs to be changed. So here comes another yearly meeting and once again, we'll all see another exercise in futility.

This lawsuit should be an eye opener for the management team. Instead, they will hide behind the GM and espouse the rhetoric. I want this board to embrace open meetings, make the community and the members their first priority. Stop hiding behind the curtain and ignoring what is common sense. Trust the community to support the corporation, and the changes will be significant for all involved.

 

I was just looking at the back of the Sun Views as I passed by the table and it states there will be a "budget presentation followed by the membership meeting". So, how does one present a budget to a group of "members" excluded from the processes, that will explain paying out a lease whose details were never seen by the board. NO, not the big details, but the one where the lease was signed without a maintenance agreement, making the RCSC responsible, in total for the costs of repairing and replacing all of the faulty and defective transformers that are currently in place. That the pieces of equipment installed were from some obscure company overseas, and it can take up to a year to get one piece of equipment refurbished out of, lets say, hundreds? Will the cost to replace all of this defective equipment and the ensuing labor costs will be absorbed where and by whom? Will this cost also be disclosed at the membership meeting?

Folks, if there was ever a time for a need for open meetings and membership participation it is right here, right now! Moving forward with the cost overruns of various projects approved and slid under the rug, it is imperative to have open meetings so the membership can have a deciding voice in how the community runs, and how it should be moving in light of such money dilemma's. The board needs to stop being a rubber stamp of approval for such ludicrous and outrageous cost overruns and hold the management teams feet to the fire. It is their fiduciary duty to the corporation, and in my humble opinion, is not being done.

 

Your comment above regarding the knee jerk reaction to ARS and the change in the quorum was spot on Carole. From that point forward we set ourselves on a path of leadership from the top down. One change after another shifted the responsibility from community ownership to one of almost total control and direction by management. Hell, i don't even fault her, it made her job easier if she could control direction and outcomes to fit what she thought was right for Sun City.

I do fault the boards for seldom, if ever, questioning/challenging that direction. And so we are clear, i'm not pointing fingers at just the most recent boards, when Carole and i were there, we fell into the same trap. Sure, we kicked and screamed like hell, but all it did was make us look like obstructionists. It's been going on for years as the danger in hiring a strong management person is they overrun the board. It always will be a balancing act where strong boards and strong management should play off one another, question direction and suggestions and make decisions that fit the needs of the entire community.

It was John Meeker's greatest strength; he asked residents thousands of questions. At every turn there were questionnaires, surveys and contests, always poking and prodding people. Learning to listen is one of those traits we so often see having fallen by the wayside in today's world. Hell, turn on the TV, any channel and listen to politicians of every stripe tell us what we want. The talking points are enough to make those with the strongest of constitution run from the room screaming.

By carving Sun City residents out from the process, they have left one of our most valuable tenets behind. I get it, it's quicker and easier to just lead from the front, make everything look great and in the end, who knows the difference? Sun City residents, from day one, have loved the community. The very idea the majority of us living here would try and tear it down was nonsensical. Unfortunately it was the hype that started the shift from a more democratic to a more autocratic form of governance.

As my good friend Ben Roloff pointed out at the board meeting yesterday, this is the first time in Sun City's history the board makeup has had more women than men. Maybe, just maybe it will be the turning point as we move forward.