4 million GOLF maintenance shed

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by SCR, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Sorry to have hi-jacked Karen thread, but I saw no place else to post these comments.

    4 million for a maintenance shed for GOLF is extravigent in my opinion.
    Again, this is my opinion. You can chastise me or ignore me, bout that is way too much for a maintenance building.

    I will attempt to copy and paste my previous threads to this new thtead.

    hang on and stay tuned.
  2. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Posted yesterday.
    “Somewhere I saw mention of a 3-4 million expense for a new golf maintenance building.

    Isn't that kind of expenditure supposed to be brought before the MEMBERS?

    Where are the plans for this building?

    What type of construction is being employed?

    Wood stick framing, metal stick framing or some other medium?

    What is included in this building?

    What is the square footage of this building going to be as opposed to the standing building?

    How many bids were requested and accepted for this building?

    Did anyone consider a block (cinder block) building?

    In today's prices for lumber, I'd bet that a block building would be cheaper.

    Who designed this building?

    Why do we need a new maintenance building?

    Does anyone ask questions anymore or just accept what the board says?

    3-4 million dollars for a maintenance building seems awful extravagant.

    What was the cost of the antique car building on grand? Remember, I believe it was built from block,
    but the equipment on the inside probably cost more than the structure.

    Who audits this kind of stuff?‘
  3. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Posted today 0i/09/21
    ‘Having worked (currently) in the construction trade, I have learned that a block construction is much cheaper then traditional framing.
    However, the components put into the structure are another story. If I have square footage of the proposed building I can probably get estimates of what it would cost for a block building.
    I think I can safely say that a block structure would not be 3 to 4 million dollars.

    We need much more information on the proposals presented so far.

    Will this expenditure be brought before the members?“
  4. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Member

    Thanks for starting a new thread.

    Please bring your expertise to the meeting, sign up before the meeting starts (to speak on Agenda items), and make your excellent points to them.
  5. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I don't understand the expense of the proposed building. The newly built maintenance building at the South Golf Course located just north of Peoria Avenue on 105th Avenue is a metal structure. Did they find a problem with this facility as built? Is the area for the proposed 4 million dollar structure too ritzy for a metal or block structure? There must be some information missing to warrant the expensive price tag.

    And no, since this would be a cash expenditure not financed, no Member vote would be required.
  6. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Member vote should be required and needed for this expenditure.
  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    You've been critical of sorts about posting documents SCR but this is the exact reason why; you can say something should be, when the reality is the documents we live under are how we have to function. Sorry, but it is the way it works. This expenditure will fall under the Preservation and Improvement Fund (PIF), which will have enough money to pay it off in full. The documents say the RCSC cannot take on a debt of more than 750K without a vote by the membership. PIF allowed them to get around that stipulation.

    With that out of the way, the idea they would spend 4 million dollars on a storage building is crazy. Aggie pointed out the South maintenance building was a metal building and if that's the case they should absolutely consider doing the same. The problem to me seems everything the RCSC puts up is always more expensive than it should be. I don't pretend to know commercial building costs but we always seem to pay top dollar.
  8. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Member

    Thank you for clearing that up Bill. Your expertise remembering all the changes that have crept into the bylaws etc. over the years shows that they will come back to bite us. I also wondered how they could just announce what they were doing without giving us any history on their research, etc.
  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    They seldom reveal the details other than on a very large project like the Fairway remodel. They've become very comfortable with people not caring what they do or how they do it.
    FYI likes this.
  10. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Member

    SCR: I do hope that you are planning on coming to the Board meeting on Monday at 11 AM. These are excellent questions!! However, you will only have 3 minutes to talk. So - what do you think of letting other members who are there ask them?
  11. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    OneDayAtATime - I have no problem with anyone asking 1 or all the questions I raised.

    Do I think it will make a difference? Probably not because the board does not care what members think.
    They are going to ramrod this through as quickly as possible in hopes that the Karen dismissal will be put on the back burner and forgotten by the members.

    I actually see no reason at all to hold this SPECIAL meeting other than to rub it in the noses of the members as if to say "See, we can do whatever we want".
    OneDayAtATime likes this.
  12. Enquirer

    Enquirer Member

    Are they only replacing the “core” building?

    Are they replacing the covered Quonset huts

    Are they replacing the several covered shelters?

    Are they building more covered shelters.

    Will there be a new paved parking lot?

    Has anyone other than RCSC seen the plans for this project?
  13. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Member

    These are all excellent questions. It would be a benefit for all members if you would attend the meeting tomorrow and ask them. Are you prepared with a "comeback" if they answer the question?
  14. Enquirer

    Enquirer Member

    If the answer to Question 1 is yes, than the building is probably over designed and/or the bidders could be using the pandemic to over price the bid. Costs have not gone up enough to call for this level of bid pricing.

    After that, all questions answered yes, add to the cost of the project, and all no answers add to everyones anxiety.
  15. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    Bill "You've been critical of sorts about posting documents SCR but this is the exact reason why; you can say something should be, when the reality is the documents we live under are how we have to function. Sorry, but it is the way it works"

    The documents can and have been changed. The Members (Corporation) have the ability to Change documents but the Members have never even tried to make any changes.
    Yes, you have to jump through hoops to do that but it is worth a shot if you really change and want to return Sun City to the way it functioned for your grand parents and parents.
    It no longer functions that way and probably never will unless there are thousands of members willing to do what it takes to make the changes you'd like.

    As for the expenditure of 4 million for a maintenance shed, I believe the Members should have a voice in that and rules must be changed to make that happen.

    The 750,000 indebtedness is probably a good rule, but when was the last time The RCSC Corporation (Members) actually went into debt of 750000 or more?

    At this point they have it backwards in my Opinion.

    I bought here in mid to late 90's when there was no PIF. When did the PIF come into existence?

    All those buying here that paid into the PIF should have a say in how that money is spent. It should not be decided by a board of 9 or the GM.

    Hoping for new board members to make changes and a new GM who will be different than the current GM is just wishful thinking.

    This forum has advocated for years for board members to make a difference. So far it hasn't happened except in Karens case. We all have seen what happened to
    Karen and Barbara. What is going to change with new board members and how many of them will not be dismissed?

    There is only one way change is going to occur. I'll leave that up to the readers to figure out what that is.

    It won't be pretty.

    But hoping and wishing for a better GM and board members will not get it done.
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    The Preservation and Improvement Fund (PIF) was passed in 1999. I've written it was the most aggressive forward action the board has ever taken. By the way, it was $750 when it was implemented. My good friend Ben Roloff has a newspaper article from the early 80's (83 or 84) in a letter to the editor where the writer argued for a point of sale charge to new buyers much higher than that. It was lengthy and on point. Had the RCSC adopted it back then, Sun City would look wholly different than it does today. The first PIF money started rolling in in 2000 and took a couple of years to build up reserves.

    So we are clear, the board intentionally created a fund to spend as they saw fit. IC and i have sparred over this, but the reality is to try and pass anything in Sun City with a majority vote would be a hard sell. The PIF allowed the board a discretionary option so they could improve/rebuild the aging infrastructure without a vote by the members. There was also a heavy reliance on committees and the gm back in those days didn't make all the decisions. The community was still under the control of the community.

    To say everything has changed might be the understatement of the year. As far as how to change things, you are alluding to a couple of ideas, one is doable, the other is unimaginable to me. I do believe that the board on its current course is vulnerable to using the "documents" against them. A recall isn't impossible, but it would take a Herculean effort that has no guarantee of success. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but it needs to get worse for the majority to support a recall. If they keep doing stupid crap, like cancelling the Oct 18th membership meeting, we might just rally enough people at the 2022 membership meeting to have a quorum and put the fear of God in them.

    As far as your unmentionable actions, it won't happen. People generally love Sun City. I love Sun City and i have lived through their ugly changes. New owners know nothing about what was. To think they are going to take up pitchforks and storm the castle is crazy thinking. Retired or working, owners here are most often delighted with a community that is clean, inexpensive, filled with things to do and fairly safe.

    There is another option and it is a story for another day, or at least later today. I am working at the Museum this morning and i will grab the documents to tell the story. It is particularly compelling because the outcome was the best of all worlds.

    By the way, if any of you are going today, stay calm and stay on point. There is no second or third reading on this action to build the maintenance building. You might want them to explain why? Seems odd they have to have three readings on the length of pool noodles but not on spending 4 million dollars.
  17. Poison_Ivy

    Poison_Ivy Member

    Of course the board passed the 3.9 million dollar shed, said three bids were obtained, going with middle bidder but Cook refused to say who the company is. Three armed cops hired for this meeting. Our $$ spent for their protection, what are they afraid of? Hoffer had fun with the 3 minute timer today.
  18. MikeM

    MikeM New Member

    Thought it really weird that most of the board knew none of the details on what the 3.9M was getting SC before this meeting and had to wait for member comments to quiz staff on specifics. Talk about blind following blind; and then vote 8-1 to approve; and 2nd and 3rd readings?? Guess not.
  19. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    It's easy to spend other peoples money -- particularly when there is no oversight or accountability possible.
  20. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Took the time to watch entire Special Meeting. The one comment that stood out the most was the person that said the BOD should have started the meeting with an outline of how the meeting would proceed and then followed by an overall presentation by the RCSC Construction Manager. If the audience, and we members that were unable to attend in person, knew the scope of the project it may not have been quite so contentious or appearing pre-approved by the BOD. I have personally never seen the current facility, didn't know that 40 employees either work at that building or are dispatched from that site and wasn't aware that all the RCSC grounds maintenance equipment would be stored there.

    So although I was harsh in some of my comments, the RCSC BOD and Management are to blame for not sharing more information ahead of this item suddenly appearing on the agenda and then calling a Special Meeting. They could have held an informational Town Hall type of session to lay the groundwork. I do take issue that they held a Special Meeting for this item when the other items on the 9/13 are equally, if not more, important to Members.

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