Member Engagement in the Governance Process

There was an interesting statement by Director Gray at the last exchange meeting. He indicated that is not a responsibility of the Board to engage members. I believe his point was that it was the members responsibility to not be apathetic and get engaged. He was referring to an email I sent him on the subject.

His statement got me to wondering, I do that from time to time, what does anybody at RCSC do to engage members in the decision making process. Well for one thing there are committees that members may apply to join and they can make recommendations. However, my observation of one committee last year was the board chair ignored the recommendation of the committee and made his own recommendation. And now it appears the board is seeking to have multiple cochairs who can vote on the recommendations of the committee. There are also exchange meetings where members can raise issues subject to a three-minute time limit. And there are electronic comment cards that can be filed, and something is done with them.

There are also incident reports that can be filed for bad behavior. We seem to have lots of members engaging in bad behavior. Of course, we are the only 55+ community with signs everywhere warning members they may be arrested for bad behavior if it's too bad.

I guess Director Gray is right - it is always someone else's responsibility to create an environment where member input is sought out and encouraged. Of course, there is always social media and there seems to be lots of engagement there...

 

No John, you cannot force someone to do things they don't want to do. I was told I hate SC because I don't volunteer. I don't want to volunteer and who is anyone to tell me I am a bad person because I won't?

Generational changes have brought us to where we are now, that and the power grabbers. I spoke about that in a recent post but because Bill says no one gives a shit about me probably not 1 person read it, and that's just fine. Sun City is doing a slow crash and burn.

The funny thing is people reach a point where they just don't care. There are a lot of people like me who want out, but we are smart enough (I am sure Dave will disagree) to know it's not the right time. The one thing we have learned is to never buy in another community like this.

God Bless!

We were supposed to have coffee when you got back John. Check your messages from last year. Our private conversation is still available.

 

I had the good fortune to take a number of communication and leadership classes over the years. The prevailing message in both of those disciplines was the responsibility fell to those in positions of power/authority, as they ultimately had better resources available to them. I cringed when i heard Rick say that, while serving in the legislature, he knows/knew the importance of outreach and messaging to his constituents.

Sorry gang, this isn't a new problem, those moving to Sun City most often have little understanding of how or why Sun City works. We are truly unique in our governance structure and assuming home owners suddenly are able to embrace it through osmosis or by joining a club is folly. Pure folly.

If there's one thing i have witnessed up close and personal too many times, it's just this: What we don't know about the RCSC is exactly what is wrong with this community, we simply don't know. For some strange reason the RCSC is either reluctant, too lazy or too terrified to help us understand.

That responsibility falls squarely in the laps of the RCSC. It always has, it always should.

 

I don't know, it seems to me that the environment can be created by the Board whether its complacency or involvement.

Bear with me for a moment; recruitment in our armed forces has been down for several years now, why? Because the previous administration viewed the armed services as an equal opportunity employer when nothing is further from the truth.

Just look at what's happened since; under the new administration where the military is reverting back to what it was intended to be, recruitment is breaking records. Many young men and women want to be tested to find out their own inner strengths and weakness' are. They don't want dumbed-down standards, they don't want to be treated as WOKE or namby-pamby where if you don't like a DI calling your mother a name you can cry, leave the service, and go back home. They lay their lives on the line and want to be treated as the adults they are!

I believe the same is required by our Board. We need to stop so often being told what we can't do and perhaps put more emphasis on what we can do. Make the Members feel as if they are part of team rather than just occupants who shell out hundreds of dollars every year just to be told, be careful what you say and who you say it to!!!!.

Has anybody seen the Club Rules put out by the RCSC yet? They're not much shorter than the organizations Bylaws! I'm surprised we don't need to ask the Monitor's permission to go to the bathroom...or maybe we have to go in two's just in case somebody has a heart attack while sitting on the toilet????

We're becoming a police state and the fun part is going away!

 

Yup! so many have said what we have to do or we are worth nothing. No. The whole BOD and Pious committee members have tried to badger people into volunteering. We are not bad people if we don't want to

Here you go Bill, I will now say what you have said I said for a long time. Sun City Sucks! (no hate)

 

Personally I don’t care if you stay or go as that is your decision. The problem is every few months or so you claim you are moving or you are putting your house on the market, yet you say it’s only an opinion. Won’t even go into your imaginary friends. Sorry I didn’t disagree, I know you are disappointed.

Gas in Sun City is up just under 18% in 13 days. Eggs still at all time high and inflation up. I can’t take any more good news from the White House.

 

When I first joined the board many years ago, the temperament was already in place that members were a piece of the puzzle to be managed. I feel they were considered more of a nuisance than an asset. Over the years member activities have dwindled, the board members seem to want to treat them with disdain rather than value them, and open communication with the members and the board is limited to 3 minutes. After that, take a number and get back in line.
Who has created this abyss between the membership and the board? The board of directors has to be the single most important part of members outreach. Keeping the members at arms length rather than having an inclusive relationship is a fundamental flaw between the members and the board. This should not be an adversarial relationship but one which embraces and encourages member participation. It feels like pulling hen’s teeth at times when I hear the verbal communication between the member and the board director.
It didn’t used to be this way. The ability to communicate with each other in order to facilitate a need or request shouldn’t mean going to the back of the line. I did not see one director in the audience, speaking with any member, prior to the start of the last meeting. No one was engaging the audience with even polite conversation.
The board of directors are our elected officials. We need them to step up and be available and willing to listen to the members. The board is our primary source of governance, they need to act as if the members matter, not just the corporation.

 

Gas $3.26 Arco on Grand and 103rd. Eggs $6/doz. (The price of eggs has increased significantly in the last two years, reaching a record high in January 2025. This increase is due in large part to an ongoing bird flu outbreak.) I have no clue why you lie especially about things that can be so easily proven. I was looking for a home a year ago, and was going to put up a month ago until I saw I would be competing with 600 other homes.

Biden ruined this country in his 4 years. Trump has not even been in office 30 days.

 

It has. When did this start? On this blog there are just a few people that talk about it since I joined a year ago, but it's all just talk. I can tell you from personal experience it was not pleasant dealing with HOA when my mom died in 2007. Then there was the FBI wanted contractor recommended by HOA. I had the wanted paper with photo and still have the email from HOA saying they don't vet, and would not remove him from the list. Then the BS with the Foundation which I am sure Janet and Linda will fix. Then my 83 year old neighbor lost his S/O and dealing with the RCSC office was a nightmare.

You can see the tension in the members at meetings. The new mantra for the board is "We know we need to do better". How does SCW pull it off. They have their issues but overall people are pretty happy there.

 

Member engagement is the answer, the questions are: At what level? And, to what degree? Clearly both need far more involvement and to evolve well beyond where we are today. That said, is there such a thing as too much? I guess we will find out at the annual membership meeting. It seems to me, given the external push by the membership, we should reach the required membership quorum of 500. That's a really good thing.

What is disturbing are the calls from those living here to be able to "opt out" from paying the fees. Just duh! Sorry gang, but at your point of purchase you signed a facilities agreement whereby you agreed to pay said fees as long as you lived here. The reality is Sun City is a sum total of its parts and while you may like the clean streets and the quiet nature of the community, you also have the responsibility of paying for the amenities that are part and parcel of the total package.

I know at least one poster here laments/whines about my historical attachment, but yet again, the purpose of repeatedly posting the data of how and why we were successful has a purpose. The foolish suggestion of selling off the amenities is captured in what the Articles of Incorporation say, and more importantly, how the community was shaped in those early years.

Sun City was granted special tax status. It wasn't always that way, as the IRS initially considered the fledgling community to be akin/the same as a private country club. DEVCO's lawyers fought that for nearly a year. Had it been allowed to stand, Sun City would never have moved north of Grand Ave. Once the IRS decided this unique community was an entirely fresh approach that was indeed not a private country club and changed the tax designation to a non-profit corporation, Webb et al went to work and over the next 16 years developed what has become an amazing senior living concept.

That special tax status, would go away if the RCSC owned nothing. And, the disillusion of the corporation is clearly spelled out in the Articles and how the proceeds would have to be handled. So to be blunt, dumb idea proposed by a person, or people who know nothing about the community they bought into. Was it the Realtors fault? The RCSC's fault? Or. perhaps the person buying the property needed to be more thorough in their research?

The really great news is this: The vast majority of those living here, love it here. The handful that hate it, or think it sucks are truly in the minority. And, the even better news is there are countless options to leave Sun City and find their place in the sun. Here's a partial list of really close-by options for them: Sun City West, The Grand, Peoria, Surprise, Glendale, Youngtown or El Mirage.

Selecting any one of those communities/city's, frees them from the vagaries of the RCSC's heavy-handed fees (their opinion, not mine). Of course the downside is, almost anywhere they move will have less amenities, higher costs and more oversight. It's the price of freedom baby, find your happiness and joy and then revel and roll in and with it. That's how life is supposed to work once we reach adulthood, rather than perpetually whining about how unfair life is.

 

Bill, please correct me if I’m mistaken, but I believe that the Sun City Home Owners Association (SCHOA) holds the enforcement responsibilities regarding the maintenance of the 55+ age overlay within Sun City, rather than the Recreation Centers of Sun City (RCSC). Additionally, my understanding is that the Arizona Revised Statutes (ARS) require sellers, brokers, and title companies to disclose any and all Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) associated with a property's deed attachment, particularly the Facilities Agreement. This means that the responsibility for providing informed consent effectively lies with these parties, rather than the buyer.

 

You should realize that now is not the right time to buy a home. To quote one of your most used sayings "just duh". I did not purchase here, so the "amenities" mean nothing to me. We all make mistakes in life and one of my biggest was not selling after I retired. I did learn a valuable lesson though, never purchase in a retirement specific community again.

You can call me names, tell me to move (BTW wasn't that one of the things that really irritated you when people said it?) I have never said my life is unfair. I have had a few bouts of an illness over the years but I won. Some of the things a couple of people on this site excel at are lying, twisting the truth, foul language, extreme hate speech, diagnosing illness without a degree (still working on that one SCG).

This is an endless loop of the same posts. Nothing has ever come to fruition as a result of this site. Funny how all the folks who disagreed were badgered and are gone. The two that come to mind are Say What and Tom McClain. Be back with more later.

 

You are right on both counts Steven; SCHOA does enforce the CC&R's (which includes the age overlay) and the buyer should be doing their own research on the community they are buying in, but Realtors have disclosure obligations as well. My argument has always been the RCSC should be doing a better job at the point of sale as well. That way seniors are less likely to buy into something they don't understand.

With that out of the way, this is why our history matters: The special tax designation we received in the early 60's was directly related to the rec centers. DEVCO awarded/gave Community Center (Oakmont) to the community at the end of 1960. Initially membership was optional with roughly 40% of those buying homes in New Unit 1 and 2 opting not to pay the fee. By the middle of 1960, with the remarkable sales the company began planning for the next center, Town Hall (Fairway). As they crossed Sun City Blvd, they instituted what we know today as a facilities agreement.

It meant everyone paid their fare share (which also resulted in lower fees for those new buyers). New Unit's 1 and 2 remained optional until 1967. It also resulted in the mini-Berlin wall where those early residents could not use the newer, nicer Town Hall except on rare occasions. Back to the point, it was at this exact juncture when the IRS issued a finding the centers were to be taxed like a private country club. DEVCO attorneys battled this out for almost a year.

The result was this community, and the rec centers/attached properties/golf courses were deemed non-profit community entities and were taxed at a wholly different level. Without that Sun City would never have flourished. By that time, the home owners association was a separate entity. There were in fact three different organizations; one representing Community Center, one representing Tow Hall and the third working for home owners on issues related to the community at large (because we didn't have a city government).

Hope that helps.

And, to be perfectly clear, no one is telling anyone they should move. What i did say is anyone unhappy with where they live should find their place in the sun where they will be happier and find joy in their lives. Here's the bottom line in Sun City: The RCSC is not going away and in fact as our facilities age, our costs to maintain them will go up. That is exactly what they agreed to and with when they bought (or inherited) a property in this amazing community so many of us love.

Hope that helps as well. One of my goals in life is to be helpful.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response and historical insight, Bill. One critical aspect that often goes unnoticed by many new Sun City buyers is the RCSC Facilities Agreement (FA) and its far-reaching implications. As you pointed out, the FA is attached to the property in perpetuity, meaning that all current and future owners remain legally bound by its terms. This includes any assessment or fee increases imposed by RCSC, which are not subject to direct membership voting rights.

This reality makes full disclosure at the time of purchase even more critical. Buyers should be fully aware of their ongoing financial obligations and the governance structure of the RCSC before making a decision. Without this level of transparency, many homeowners unexpectedly face assessments and limitations they were never made aware of.

Your emphasis on informed consent is well-founded. Ensuring that prospective buyers understand the open-ended financial commitment ("blank check") attached to their property, along with the fact that they have no voting rights within the RCSC, would not only reduce potential legal disputes but also strengthen the overall integrity of the RCSC. I firmly believe this disclosure should be required at the point of sale to ensure that this information is clearly communicated and acknowledged—yet, at present, it is not being properly presented.

Thank you again for your engagement and for shedding light on this critical issue.

 

So very helpful. Like when you doxed me? like when you told Tom McClain to take his crap sandwich and go to another site (BTW you do not own this one). Like when you called Say What a moron. like when you told me 'no one gave a shit about me'? Helpful like that? And let's not mention what you actually think about ALL Trump supporters. Those comments would fill a book.

Hey! Isn't your generation supposed to be "The Silent Generation"?

 

I should have known better and this is not an excuse, however it's something to consider when kids inherit. Lived with and took care of folks while working at Sun Health. Dad died in 2004, mom in 2007. The last thing on my mind was the FA and what it meant. Cremation's to take care of, getting a plot at The Veterans Cemetary, the usual ton of paperwork when someone dies. Death Certs, paying beneficiaries, working 10 hours a day. I had no clue what was happening. It's still a big blur. I was a few months away from 55 and John Wayne from the HOA summoned me in to tell me to get out....NOW. I figured out a work around and John Wayne could not force this "Little Missy" (as he referred to me) to go anywhere.

I should have hired a lawyer to read the FA. Had I done that I may have sold the home. I made what could be a very costly mistake. Maybe it is time for me to volunteer. Maybe I should be talking with prospective buyers to help them understand exactly what they are buying into.

 

I have received some communication that I have misinterpreted Director Gray's comments. I certainly did not intend to twist words or meaning. I believe there will be clarification of what was intended forthcoming.

 

Janet we do have voting rights for Board members and that's it. How many times have we been burned by those folks. We had to scream for the Libraries, The PAC, no one got to vote on Grand, the bldg with no A/C.

We don't disagree often aggie, but we do here. There were allegedly 16 foot doors built into the design and someone either took them out or screwed up and built them with 8 foot doors, no one seems willing to take ownership of the mistake (nothing new there). As far as handling entering and exiting, you probably know they have dealt with that in freezers forever in grocery stores. They make rubberized strips that allow those coming in or going on to simply push them aside, thereby maintaining most of the air conditioning. Sorry kiddo, but when one of the old boys drops dead in next summers heat, the RCSC will have a liability issue the size of Texas. Once you know of a problem, you fix it or you you suffer the consequences.

BPearson, Oct 26, 2022

As i sat typing that, i had to scratch my head and try and remember the effort one board member made in leading this ever so pure effort to allow clubs to apply for said space at Grand Ave. The biggest pile of horse manure came when the Stained Glass Club at Bell was told they were awarded square footage in the new Grand Avenue Center. Oops, no one asked for that move from the club and in fact were mildly angry that anyone thought they wanted to be shuffled off from their existing space. They had requested a small addition on their existing room at the Bell Center, not to be moved across town.

Once the opening came the infighting for the space took on a fascinating life of it's own as one of the club's at Oakmont suddenly became the heir apparent. I won't list the board members who helped push it through but suffice to say i remember no one who "recused" themselves. Then of course was the amazing amount of space for the camera club at Sun Dial. Nope not arguing against them getting or needing it, but i do know the relationship of at least one former board member with said club. Finally, the other club that got moved there was one from Lakeview and one of the seated board members was the former president of the club.

The point of this exercise is quite simple. Things that have happened over the years haven't been pure as the driven snow. Decisions are made, board members lobby for and get things. It's been that way for a very long time. Hence my points are quite simple, hanging Karen out to dry for acts other board members have done and may i say in far more egregious fashion is pathetically woeful. Worse yet, pretending those things never took place is even more disgraceful.

BPearson, Aug 28, 2021

 

Josie, I think we are all tiring or your it's all about me posts. I visit this forum to inform, be informed, and learn about things we need to learn from or do more of. I realize I am only one person, but I can't help noticing you are posting negative comments on everything and anything. Really? No one is responsible for your happiness but you. John