You tell me who is making crap up!

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Oct 28, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but after today's meeting i have to vent. For the first time in 46 years the RCSC is now claiming golf doesn't have to be self-sufficient. Seems the exiting general manager is now of the mind she knows perfectly what was intended by the board when they did the deal with the Webb Corporation. She makes Carnac the Magnificent look like a piker.

    Before i go there, this is the same general manager who told us that the "intent" of the board when they grandfathered pre-2003 owners that it didn't include or protect those who sold their homes. Really? Here is the language from a Dec 2002 memo from the board to the Title Companies and Realtors for the change they would pass one month later: "These property owners will be grandfathered and will continue to pay the per person annual assessment, or one-half of the per property assessment. If a resident is a property owner, as of the above date (Feb 1, 2003) and sells their primary residence and purchases another primary residence, they will be assessed at the per person rate."

    So another words, she made shit up and shoved it down the boards throat. And they ate it.

    It gets better. Today, the new revelation is the gm now knows what the board actually intended when they did the 1975 deal to buy the golf courses. Virtually everyone who has been around knows what the deal was, but today we found out, that was never what the board's "intent" was. They really didn't "intend" to make golf sustaining.

    Information is power, and pretending to know what was intended 46 years ago by stating "they never really intended that," is pure crap. Rather than relying on the gm who for the past 15 years who has shoveled boatloads of money into golf over and above the PIF is pure nonsense. Rather, lets look back at what the 1975 board president had to say on the subject. Here's three articles from the newspapers of the day:
    1). "The courses will be operated on a self-sustaining basis, with dues to golfers sufficient to cover all costs. Regular dues will not increase." (Sept 16, 1975).
    2). "Management and finances for the courses will be entirely separate from Rcc Center operations, Waggoner said. They will be operated on a self-sustaining basis, with dues and fees to golfers sufficient to cover all costs. Regular dues will not increase." (9-19-75).
    3). "The courses will be operated on a self-sustaining basis, with dues and fees to golfers sufficient to cover all costs, and there will be no increase in regular Rec Center dues." (9-23-75).

    I was always curious when this day would come, when they would just pretend feeding general operating money was just fine. Today, we finally found out didn't we.
     
  2. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Bill,

    I truly hate to be the one to make this statement, but I will go down this path. I do believe we have now reached a point where there is a distinct need for attorneys to be involved as well as find any and all venues avilable to the members to seek out the various ways to stop the bleeding of dollars at the expense of golf and the willingness of this GM to make up the rules as she goes. There are definitive rules and guidelines already in place as to how this community should operate, and it has now been made crystal clear, there is a demigod running this corparation into the ground for thier own gratification.

    I am sorry to say what I have stated what I did, but the only recourse I can see from my perview is to seek litigation against her for not meeting needs of the corporation and running it as a for profit agency with the intent of creating a memberless corporation. The changing of the documents further proves her willingness to remove the members powers and place the whole of the corporate structure within her immediate grasp and control. If I am way out of order here, I get it, and apologize. I am more than willing to hear alternatives to what we now know to be her truth.
     
    Michael Wendel likes this.
  3. LoriEllingson

    LoriEllingson New Member

    :eek:Carol, I definitely agree with you. I am totally amazed how the board continues to make one bad decision after another. They don’t seem to have a lick of sense in them. I am ready to help fight for this cause. We definitely have enough documentation to win any type of litigation that we bring forth against the board.
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately Carole, i am not there. as much as i resented what happened yesterday at the meeting where the exiting gm wanted to rewrite history to fight her narrative for this community to subsidize golf, a lawsuit isn't the answer. If we have learned nothing from the past 20 years, we know they will simply outspend and delay any efforts to the point of absurdity. There's no upside.

    I prefer we look forward as she leaves and a new gm comes on board. As we get 4 new board members and an awakened sense of responsibility and accountability. Here's the problem, watch the video and look at the sense of confusion when i asked the board about the recommendation for the increase of golf rates in motion 1. Literally the president told me that's not what motion 1 was about. Duh. Then when pressed, someone had to clue her there was indeed an increase proposed for golf but she didn't know what it was. Someone kind of bailed her with it was just for guests, then the director of golf had step in and confirm the $1 increase was for all golfers who paid the daily rate fee. Then she had the audacity to act like she knew that all along.

    I got there early yesterday, i never do. I wanted to be the first one signed up to speak to the motion. If you look at the agenda, you will see motion 1 was to accept the recommendations by the budget and finance committee. No numbers, no information for the members, let alone the board. Are you freaking kidding me? The problem is/was simply this: the $1 increase punishes those who are actually paying the full price for golf already and lets both the full play and surcharge card holders stay the course with golf well below the actual cost of running a golf course. It's illogical and if anything it will make golf's losses even bigger next year.

    There-in is the problem, most of the board pays no attention to the details. They simply trust management to get it right. Sadly, when the gm has functioned under the premise that golf should be subsidized by the general membership, why worry or be concerned by the numbers? Who cares if we are losing bushel baskets of money every year by selling golf passes that allow people to play for $10 or $15 a round (or less) and the poor schmucks that go out once a week and pay their $33 will see a $1 increase...that many of the board didn't even know they were voting on.

    I know, it is expecting a lot, but let's start with intellectual honesty. That's pretty simple. Let's start with real transparency, not this pretend crap they claim tells all. If it wasn't for the board firing another board member i would have none of the numbers i have (no it wasn't from Karen). There's no way i could go on their website and get any of the data that i have. What they post is homogenized bullshit that means nothing. Hell, i couldn't even get the fact they were passing that $1 increase on to people who already pay full price from the recommendation.

    I spoke 3 times, i hate that. The 3 minute time limit is crazy, especially when the board or management eats up half the 3 minutes answering. The third trip to the mic was to in part compliment them. Hiring an actual building guy with actual building experience was something that should have been done 15 years ago. Lord knows how many dollars we lost due to said inexperience. Secondly, i applauded Bill Cook for last months two presentations; one on Viewpoint lake and one on improved security and related costs. It was a good first step. It was what i had been proposing while on the board.

    So no, no lawsuit. No suing ourselves, no infighting over who is right or who is wrong. This community needs to get it right over the next 5 to 10 years. They need to be honest and open and able to communicate clearly without all the smoke and mirrors. If golf is and has been losing money forever (as one director freely admitted yesterday), then we need to figure out how to slow the bleeding, or better yet, stop it.

    We've lived through an era where the way we were run was foreign to how we were built and why we were successful. It's time to return to our roots, rather than run from them.
     
    Cheri Marchio likes this.
  5. Cheri Marchio

    Cheri Marchio Active Member

    Bill your patience at explaining and re-explaining is amazing. Please keep it up. This is very helpful for informed dialogue.
     
  6. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Active Member

    I agree with Cheri but we're preaching to the choir on this venue, not the members who need to hear it.

    I don't like to just complain; I'm percolating some thoughts!

     
    Cheri Marchio likes this.
  7. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    I do beleive I need to make a clarification to my statement around needing attorneys. I agree, no suing the RCSC, as it places the burden of the costs on the community, and am not in favor of. I was thinking more of Attorney General or a States Attorney. Perhaps, if documented correctly as to the way the corporation and the GM have acted symbiotically to create a break in the governing rules of the corporation, there may be the possibility of having several agencies investigate the corporation and the GM. This puts the onus on the governing agencies to provide the audits and needed costs to conduct a forensic audit of the books, as well as other suspected fraudulent practices. There is also a very distinct possibility the way the GM has paid for and covered various expenses, it has placed our non-profit status at risk with the Federal Government.

    No, don't want the residents to have to bear these costs, but I surely would like to see the appropriate powers needed to look into such heinous self rightrous moves by the GM and provide clarification as to what the RCSC can do legally to get the upper hand in this ongoing saga
     
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks Cheri, i appreciate the kind words. My hope is over time people come to understand our history and how special we are. There's no reason anyone knows it unless someone takes the time to tell them.

    I know better than anyone the limitations of TOSC. After all these years and starting 1000's of threads, much of it was like peeing in the toilet and flushing it. I've always argued it's one person at a time. The multiplier becomes each of you that read it, share it or pass it on. Without that, the circle stays small and insignificant.

    I have to be blunt here Carole (why change now?), anyone going to the state attorney general or another state agency would look at what we have here for what we pay and would try and get us committed to a sanitarium for complaining. We are the best deal in town, maybe the free world. With that out of the way, we shouldn't be complacent with what the past 15 years has brought us.

    In fairness, the RCSC and the gm has kept our yearly lot assessment in a really good place; at least for couples. Single home owners not so much. The PIF whether it stays at $3500 or goes to 4K is simply an investment in our future. Without it, we die. The bigger problem has been what they have done to home owners who have been gouged with marital deed issues. I'm not talking about selling/giving the home to your kids. If you watched yesterday, you saw people question and be told if the check that paid the PIF came from a joint account you were good. What freaking nonsense.

    While i applaud the gm for keeping costs down, she has monetized way too many aspects of squeezing a buck out of people. Anyone remember when we wanted to charge a guest fee for walking Meeker Mountain at Viewpoint lake. How about people that pay 5 or 6 lot assessments between them, they marry and for personal reasons keep the property title in the one they live in in one name. There is no question they are married, but we tell them change the title or buy a privilege card for the spouse not on the title. The reality is we could be getting six lot assessments plus another 5 from rentals. How much is enough before you just piss people off?

    There's so much ahead of us and with the gm leaving maybe there is hope. We'll see.
     
  9. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Thanks Bill, I get it.
     
  10. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Couple of things....I just watched the 2 hour 13 minute board meeting and a few things come to mind!

    1. When suddenly a motion was made to add the remodeling of the bathrooms at Bell and Lake View, and without discussion the motion never received a second! Makes me wonder how far in advance did the other board members know about that issue because it seems to me that it must have been discussed amongst themselves at some point prior to the meeting!?!?!? Just how much of the boards agenda is discussed and decided on prior to posting the agenda? If they all got together and made an actual "decision" then in my book that's considered a meeting! And if they make those decisions via email, then they're violating not only holding a meeting but doing so electronically which is currently a violation of their bylaws!

    2. I kinda get Jan's explanation that if you bought a house in Sun City, even though the title may only be in the man's name, if the PIF fee was paid with a joint account a second PIF fee is not required if the husband dies and the wife retitles the house! But....suppose they bought their house 15 years ago. Does the bank or the RCSC still have a copy of the check that was used to pay the PIF fee? I don't know! Just aski'n!

    This comment has me a little scared. It's my understanding, and I've heard it at various times over the years and from several people, that Maricopa County would simply love nothing better than to find a reason to change our senior status so that they can raise our school and various taxes. If they start digging I fear that they will only be looking for violations and an excuse to change our status rather than getting the board to fall into line!
     
  11. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    FYI, I made a comment earlier in regards to Bill's post that states "Thanks Bill, I get it". To clarify, this means I undertand the point which Bill was making, and it makes sense me to me to agree with his assessment of the situation. To make it even clearer, while I do believe there should be an investigation, I understand the repercussions to the community, therefore, I support the point of view presented by Bill. I do not know of another way to say mea culpa of my position other than to state I support the thoughts of those who have given this issue a lot more forethought and is best left alone for another day/
     
  12. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    CMartinez, I wasn't being critical of your comments which I whole heartedly agree with and Bill. My point was simply to be careful what you wish for. Many things have unintended consequences!
     
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Geez, what a morning. Dropped my wifi with cox from 500 megs to 150 and lost 80% of my storage capacity for emails. Was working with them on chat (5 different techs) before one finally told me with the downgrade i have to delete 10,000 emails. Ick.

    I seldom if ever talk about this because i get angry when i do. There are a boatload of people outside Sun City who hate the community. I'm sure some of you know, but for those who don't people of all stripes and colors resent who we are and how we live. I've argued with a bunch of them and it is simply a no win proposition. Kind of my point through all of this. We need to take care of our own problems.
     
    Michael Wendel likes this.
  14. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I have two takeaways from the 10/28 meetings is how the $585,000 excess COVID Relief Grant can now be used for golf course turf items. Shouldn't the Grant be used to offset costs related to COVID prevention and extra expenses due to special precautions taken by the Centers?

    Secondly, it doesn't seem that we can go back to the Member Exchange and one Board Meeting a month. The Exchange was informal and for the most part non-confrontational which I don't think is possible with the way things are today. Once we have a new Board seated there may be room for change but an informal meeting between members and Directors in addition to the 2 BOD Meetings would be best.
     
  15. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    I think it is way too early to believe that a confrontational meeting cannot be had. The number of people showing up for the meeting may dictate how things go.

    Also, wishing and hoping new board members will right the ship and return SC to its origins is very wishful thinking. Same goes for incoming GM.

    Lets wait and see how the candidate meetings go and how the newly elected board members vote. Especially on motions for by law changes that further restrict
    member involvement.
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  16. Michael Wendel

    Michael Wendel Active Member

    I see this statement as flawed. I have paid 2 pif fees and they were through the title company. What happens then? It didn't come from my personal checking account. The RCSC doesn't know where the funding for my escrow account originated. I don't think I'm in the minority here.
     
  17. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    The PIF methodology is inherently inequitable in so many ways Alternatives to a PIF are unfair too, and many can't generate sufficient funding. Several of us have debated PIFs et al at length over the years -- some favor, some don't, but we pretty much agree we don't see a viable alternative at the moment. The median income in SC (85351) is a shade below $40K, 85373 is a shade above $53K but includes data for areas outside SC, so I don't know the aggregate. The average income, however, is about 10K higher --- that says there are some residents with lots of financial resources. When these owners invest $50-75K remodeling their 50 year old homes it keeps housing prices up, whil owners who rely on the food banks and senior centers to survive see their homes fall into disrepair. Who knows how it will end. In some areas of Phoenix (with comparable age housing) buyers are adding additions and modernizing to create $1-million or more homes, but the lots are large enough to support that. In SC there's little expansion room on a 70x100 lots and god help someone who asks the RCSC to only pay one assessment on two lots combined into one.

    IMO, the PIF will remain viable awhile longer, but clouds are forming on the horizon. Water shortages, increasing average temperatures, Arizona no longer being a top retirement location, the decline in Golf, etc. will eventually push housing prices down while the demand for PIF money continues to grow for the same reasons (water, climate change). I consider the pandemic (and it's accompanying economic outfall) a warning shot. People paid their assessments and SC housing sales remained brisk as people from elsewhere downsized to SC for economic reasons. During the shutdown many people found other interests so it's unclear whether RCSC usage numbers will return to previous levels -- many clubs lost membership and so far haven't recovered their numbers.
     
    OneDayAtATime likes this.
  18. SC Phx GenXer

    SC Phx GenXer New Member

    Bill - My husband and I moved to Sun City from the Midwest six months ago. I’m genuinely curious as to why people outside our community hate Sun City. I imagine it may be related to high percentage of transplants or not paying taxes for schools, etc. All conjecture on my part. Can you share insight on the real complaints? Just wanting to satisfy my curiosity and be more aware/sensitive of any legitimate concerns . We like it here but find a fair amount of “division” over a myriad of topics, which we didn’t really expect. We moved here from out of state (probably brought our politics with us - strike 1), bought a twin/Gemini home on a golf course (e.g., is it a condo or PUD?, is my grass yard watered with recycled water or are we irresponsibly contributing to the water crisis ? were the coyotes here first…how about Luke AFB?), and I am at the low end of the 55 age requirement which has encountered a couple passive-aggressive comments. I’m not sure how marginalized I want to be (ha!) but am really interested in why others wouldn’t like Sun City. Sorry if this is off topic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2021
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Hey SC Phx GenXer, welcome to TOSC and to Sun City. No worries on off topic, i love to ramble (in case you hadn't noticed). You are spot on with your perception. There is an abnormal amount of resentment towards Sun City by those outside the walls. Mostly it stems from not paying district school taxes, but there's always been those looking at us like we are selfish, greedy non caring people. They simply can't understand our inward focus.

    My first 10 years i used to fight with them. Back in the day we would get the AZ Republic and they had a cartoonist who did his damnedest to paint us all with the ugly brush. That resulted in comments by readers and i would start trying to explain how and why they were wrong. Hell, i once got into a nasty back and forth with Andrew Bleckman when he wrote Leisureville and the Republic took the chapter on Sun City and did an interview where he ripped us as well. I went after him pretty hard and after a bit he sent me an email and told me to lighten up, he was just trying to sell his book.

    Just last year i got into it with the Arizona Historical Society. One of the egg heads from an institution of higher learning in the south wrote a hit piece on Del Webb. Went round and round but it was an exercise in futility. Most off the time i just ignore it. That said, it is real and it is palpable. Knowing that attitude exists drives me crazy, but it is what it is.

    The other stuff is real and more minutia not worth getting concerned with. All of us that were lucky enough to get here at an early age know the feeling of the older folks staring and wondering; what the hell are these "kids" doing here. Revel in it, before you know it you'll be the oldster on the block questioning new arrivals. It's virtually a right of passage.

    To be blunt, the Sun City i know, want to remember, is the one where people take ownership and become an active participant in insuring we remain unique. I see us drifting and we shouldn't. The "City of Volunteers" was the best rebuttal to us greedy old folks. Hard to call you greedy when people living in Sun City give back millions of hours to keep us unique.

    My best advice, enjoy the hell out of it and make it special for you and the spouse. Everything else be damned.
     
    SC Phx GenXer and 3cavkings like this.
  20. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    If you really want to stay happy I would advise you to not get involved in the politics of the RCSC and Board.

    Just pay your annual assessment fee and remain safe, dumb and happy. If you start looking into the politics you'll begin to wish you didn't!

    Unfortunately I've become somewhat obsessed with how the RCSC and Board violates their own rules and has locked us out of any governance decisions or information.

    But....its a GREAT place to live and many fine people on this forum are trying to right the ship. I think we're making progress!?!?

    Welcome Home and you're welcome to join the fight!
     
    SC Phx GenXer and eyesopen like this.

Share This Page