Was It Always About Being The Cheapest?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Feb 3, 2025 at 10:53 AM.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    If i told you over the years Ben Roloff and i had coffee 500 times, it would be a pretty good guesstimate. And while we fancied ourselves as self-proclaimed (his word, i adopted it), historians, our discussions were every bit as much about our future as they were about our past.

    Ben was what i lovingly called a big-brain. And while he tried to make me feel an equal, i never was, never will be. I learned at his knee, adding to what i knew from my work history and helping me better understand just how uniquely special Sun City was.

    I loved the old ads from those first 5 years of Sun City. The ones produced by the 50 person in-house advertising division. They were brilliant and as Ben and i were preparing for Life Long Learning Class on selling Sun City, i went though the 18 years of ad slicks the museum has stored away.

    One of those early themes that was often repeated, promoted living in Sun City for a nickle a day. Oddly, it increased to 5.5 cents, even though there was no increase in the yearly fee. They never pitched it as cheap, it was always about being affordable with comparisons of other communities via taxes or available amenities. They wanted those moving here believe their purchase was the best decision they ever made.

    As Ben and i watched the RCSC run from our history and move from a community that had documents that integrated the members into the decision making process, we were concerned. Me more so than Ben, he was always more pragmatic, less caustic.

    Change is a given and the new direction for building a top-down driven organization was in plain view. We often lamented what that would mean moving forward. As our bottom-up values were dismantled, we grew concerned for our future. As members became less involved, would it be better or worse?

    Yesterday when i posted the January home sales totals for 2025, even i was stunned. Imagine my surprise when i saw the 2024 January total was 94. Then it dawned on me, both years were most likely impacted by the increase in the PIF ($4000) and the CIF ($1500), both paid at the point of purchase. Note adjusted figures above, my mistake.

    As i mentioned, trends are never viewed in one-off events or time frames. A one month look is just that, one brief moment in time and may mean something or nothing. With that in mind, i reached out to a friend for a deeper dive in the data that may give us a more clear picture of where we are.

    Before i post it, i want to remind readers, there is almost always a back story for everything that happens; in this case, the housing crash in 2009 was important to remember. In 2010, garden court apartments were selling for as little as $25k and single 3 bedroom homes could be had for as little as $100k.

    Coming out of the crash, the RCSC board of directors had the good sense to invest in a strategic marketing plan for the community. I think it was around $100k in 2011 and another $50k my first year on the board in 2012. The general manager and the board's at that time understood full well the importance of selling homes and the resulting PIF collections funding those projects.

    We could argue whether it was money well spent, but i saw it as genius. My 3 years prior to the RCSC board were as president of the Del Webb Sun Cities Museum and i knew up close and personal just how valuable marketing was to Sun City's success. History matters, always has, always will.

    Which brings me full circle to where we are at this moment in time. Our annual lot assessments have been increased by a lot over the past three years. We found ourselves in the hole with massive deferred maintenance staring us square in the face, our technology wholly inadequate and our golf courses struggling to find their footing. We're still digging out from our choices.

    It's a fascinating discussion because as you read the numbers posted below, they all beg the question;"Was it always about being the cheapest place for seniors to live?" I don't believe that was ever the strategy, but it appears as if it may well have been the outcome. Especially when i see letters to the editor where people living here are whining they don't use the facilities so why should they have to pay?

    Sorry, that one drives me nuts. Hopefully every real estate agents explains the importance to their potential buyer how Sun City works; that they day the sign their documents, it includes a facilities agreement where they will be paying for the amenities irrespective of use. It's why i still get a little hot under the collar when i see out of the community realtors who know nothing about Sun City.

    With all of that out of the way, here is the data from a friend that should scream volumes at each and every one of us...including the RCSC board and management team. Data matters; always has, always will.
    Total Homes Sold Year to Year in Sun City:
    2024: 1477.
    2023: 1614.
    2022: 1884.
    2021: 2381.
    2020: 1863.
    2019: 1953.
    2018: 2121.
    2017: 2327.
    2016: 2164.
    2015: 2088.

    We know January started slow in 2025 with 92 homes sold. We also know home sales around the country have been sluggish due mostly to high interest rates. While we can all speculate, anyone with a live brain cell should be looking at the numbers and preparing a strategy/plan to insure we reverse the trends we are seeing.

    Love to hear your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2025 at 1:47 PM
  2. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    Fascinating statistics. I am sure they mean more to a realtor that they do to me, but the downward trend is clear and I think its correlation with the aging out of baby boomers is fascinating in Macro economic sense. The data also speaks volumes about the need to budget conservatively so the corporation does not get caught naked when the tide goes out. (a warren buffet saying).

    I think your point here is what can the average member do to reverse the trend with the implication that the trend here is Sun City is in a steady state of decline. My only answer to this question is that we all should support engaging an experienced planner to provide an unbiased report on what we need to do in the future (a master plan). But, my friend, I feel like I am preaching to choir here. TO ALL READING THIS PLEASE ATTEND THE MARCH MEMBERS MEETING. THERE WILL BE A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE BYLAWS TO REQUIRE ENGAGING AN EXPERT AND GIVING YOU THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON THE BIG STUFF.
     
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  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    There's a legitimate argument from both sides over whether members should vote on big ticket items, but for our purposes here. it's not the point. Yet.

    I'm far more concerned about reinstalling the members rights/voices and engaging them on our future. Let's be clear, it will never be everyone, not even close. We need to grow the circle and expand the numbers of concerned members who care enough to become involved. Then we need to have both the balls and brains to be abundantly blunt about what is going on.

    I see one board member lamenting on social media it's all the negative comments that are killing sales. Right. How about looking in the mirror and seeing the reflections that are driving members to voice their anger? How about addressing them so there is a sense of community and ownership? How about making it clear to the GM that 2024 wasn't really all that great a year? Nuh, blame the angry members.

    I'm way past the blame game, if Ben taught me anything, it was to set goals and then devise a plan to get there. It was his mantra in every organization we served on. It was how he thought and how he acted. For whatever reason, we've lost that common sense approach to solving the problems we face. Sad, because we know it works.

    It all starts with butts in the chair at the March 11 membership meeting. For sure, it is only the tip of the spear. The hard work follows.

    PS. You want to have some fun? As we look to spending 6 million dollars on a golf course (Quail Run) that gets the least play, does it make sense? Would we be better off to pay off those home owners living on it for their added costs for a golf course lot and then look to the future for a better use? Nope, not arguing for it, just trying to engage in creative/forward thinking. I know, crazy...but is it really?
     
    Eileen McCarty likes this.
  4. Eileen McCarty

    Eileen McCarty Active Member


    Maybe we don't need a lot more big stuff...but just keep the centers updated and current to membership. The need to know what the people think is vital. Even if this current bod may not agree with everything members say, I think we are at a critical time to at least ask.
     
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  5. Josie P

    Josie P Well-Known Member

    Well thank you. I believe we went back and forth on this for a while.
     
  6. BruceW

    BruceW Active Member

    IMHO this is exactly what Sun City needs, but PIF is for “big” stuff like MV upgrade which is an ongoing nightmare.
    Just a thought… when I was a project manager we would pull together a bunch of small projects to make one big project so you could capitalize it (PIF), then break it down into tasks under the capitalized project umbrella. Yeah, I know not the best way, but it worked in the corporate world.
     
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  7. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    Bill,
    My point was voting on the big stuff is restoring the members rights to be involved in their self-governance. Admittedly, some think allowing the members to vote once annually for the big stuff is fraught with perils but is it really that bad of an option? How better to assure individual agendas are not getting big bucks allocated to them? If how we spend our money on our rec centers is not a common interest, then what is?
    John
     
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I get your point John which was why i said there are arguments from both sides. Things need to get done and the best example i can give you is when Fairway was plowed under and rebuilt. The 5 year project drew some harsh criticism with the projected 18 million dollar project (it came in at 16.2 million) with most of the complaints coming from members living north of Grand Ave. Many of them figured they would never use the facility given its location.

    With roughly a quarter of the population south of Grand and the rest north, my fear/concern was it might have been voted down. Same goes for all the money spent/invested on our golf courses. Would the non-playing membership (roughly 15% play) support the massive infusions needed to keep them viable?

    I don't know the answer, but my fear would be the membership error on the side of being fiscally conservative. As i've watched the struggle over the PAC, i could support any new/additional square footage being added to the RCSC amenity package being subject to a vote. That's what they did in 1981 when the membership voted to accept the Sun Bowl.

    It was what we were hoping for when the Lakes Club came up for sale; let the members decide. It would have been curious to see a vote on whether to buy the property the Grand Center sits on the subsequent costs to build the two new buildings. As nice as the property is, there has been an ongoing set of challenges and apparently they still continue to this day.

    As always, this issue, like so many others would become far more logical if the RCSC made at least a minimal effort to welcome new members to the community and helped them understand how we worked; why we were successful. Instead they treat it like a throw-away and then wonder why no one cares or worse yet, why members are angry?
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  9. John, With all due respect, I wish you success in your efforts to change or amend the Bylaws at the membership meeting, as discussed above. However, I believe you may be overlooking the Board's ultimate authority, as stated in Bylaw Section 4. This section specifies that proposals to change or amend the Bylaws, particularly those concerning the conduct of the corporation's business affairs, will be considered only as "recommendations" to the Board. Unless I’m misreading this, it is policies like this that have led to the frustration and disengagement among members, including myself, who feel their voices are underrepresented in the decision-making process.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2025 at 12:00 PM
    eyesopen and Janet Curry like this.
  10. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    I completely get the possibility of members being reticent to spend money on amenities. I am told the article in the Independent on opting out of the assessment received the most comments from the members. This is not an option and never will be. Clearly, we have some members that do not want to live in or pay for recreational amenities. They may have aged out or for some other reason they found themselves "trapped" in a recreational community. (Not a bad place to be "trapped" I might add.) They either can't, won't or don't want to participate in recreational activities. I don't think this group will ever care about the quality and quantity of amenities.

    For the rest of us, we probably care about the allocation of capital but realize the deck is stacked against meaningful participation on an individual level because we have a representative form of governance with elected directors who make decisions "on our behalf". That is where I see the process is flawed for a number of reasons including who wants to go through the brain damage to spend 20 hours a week on a thankless volunteer position when the members don't appear to care. Strangely enough, and thankfully, there are individuals who will take this on even though they do not participate in very many activities or clubs. (To Be Continued)
     
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  11. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST
    The question that my previous post presents is if you believe that members being engaged in their governance process is a "good thing" what can community leaders do other than holding monthly gripe sessions and make available electronic comment cards to get members engaged in a positive and plausible way in their recreational future? I will be proposing one approach that virtually every other municipality in the country employs uses for their park and recreation department: An expertly developed member approved master plan. Over the next month I will be providing examples of why this approach is far superior to the approach RCSC has taken in the past. I also plan on discussing the subject at the exchange meeting on Monday, February 10th at 9:00 at the Sun Dial auditorium.
     
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  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    This is a topic i have beaten to death over the years; how do we make Sun City better (another truly subjective term). Like the old Dragnet promo about having a million stories, there are hundreds of ways and so many were available from the membership. Instead, we elected to push them away and let a handful decide our fate/future.

    Tragic for sure, but clearly yesterday's news. The path forward, whatever it is, will be traveled much the same as the path carved early on; by the community at large. The challenge is as you have posed John: How the hell do we get there? I know there are answers, the question is more about the board and the general manager actually wanting to engage them/us...or will it just be another show pony?
     
    eyesopen and OneDayAtATime like this.
  13. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member


    GO! Hear what John is proposing and what other members will present!

    The Exchange Meeting
    Monday, February 10, 2025 @ 9am
    Sundial Auditorium

    Plan to attend the next Exchange meeting Monday, February 10, 9am, in the Sundial Auditorium, 14801 N. 103rd Ave. (103rd & Boswell)

    The Exchange member/board monthly meetings provide an open, two-way communication opportunity to ask questions, share concerns, solutions, compliments and ideas about anything RCSC related.

    What’s on your mind?

    Make a list and Speak Up! Three minute time limit. You can return after everyone who wants to speak has had a turn.

    Current Topic Status List: https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/2-10-25-Exchange-Topics-Spreadsheet.pdf

    Unable to attend? Exchanges are video recorded and posted on the RCSC YouTube channel, usually the next day. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdLy0Uy9sKWCJNLz37tn5ug

    ✍️ Sign up to receive RCSC News Email Alerts one week prior to meetings with a status report of previous issues presented. Other RCSC news, too. https://suncityaz.us10.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=100083ab001c5179fefc4e0a7&id=81e1c172e3

    PARTICIPATE! in our community, however it is you are able!
     
  14. SunCityGal

    SunCityGal Active Member

    If every expenditure is put to a vote of the members, nothing will ever be accomplished. People will see large numbers with long timelines and definitely say no. The budget process is to be managed by the board in a way that meets community needs, with the known outstanding priorities adhered to first. There are maintenance issues long overdue needing to be addressed now. The IT issue is deplorable and needs addressing immediately. Throw those numbers out for a vote and I feel most would not support the expenditure. So nothing would change and the decay would continue.
     
  15. Josie P

    Josie P Well-Known Member

    Are you talking about new buildings here or fixing what we have. I have never supported the PAC and my thoughts have been to fix what needs fixing, upgrade what needs upgrading. The T-Bird Bldg. indoor dog area, PAC and Grand should never have happened/been considered.

    I got a lot of push back from those who wanted to "glitz" up SC. It has always been my opinion you can't take one run down property in the midst of 20 others, fix the one up and Shazam! Everything is ok now. The mindset of the board and spending money is so foreign to me. I would love to put a beautiful bird bath and sitting area in my yard, however my home needs paint and my A/C is 20 years old. Guess what my first item will be.

    It's just budgeting, common sense and what is my most urgent need..
     

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