"The Inmates Want To Run The Institution."

Dave,
Your comment is the most contorted grammatically incomprehensible statement I have seen in a long time. How does one not present a lack of evidence to the contrary or otherwise.
John

 

This statement is completely unintelligible. Gibberish takes on a new meaning.

 

Bill has not advised me as to what member governance would look like and continues to dodge the question, consequently I made my opinion known for which I refuse to apologize as I have not been proven wrong. Clear enough? All I receive is word salad.

 

John,

Still love the new look. You must come over to listen to the White Album, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and some Spooky Tooth. Yes they are all real not made up.

Dave
You cannot jail the revolution!

 

According to Dave, those four Directors were not very involved at all on the committee except for the Chairman who did the typing.

I know that a person feels honored when they are selected by the Board to be on an important committee. That facilitates loyalty to the people who selected you - the Board and the Chairpersons of the committee. Are the other five really going to go against something the Board strongly prefers to be in the bylaws? It takes a very strong individual to do that.

 

Especially since they are almost undecipherable unless you are an attorney.

 

Really Dave? For being Sun City's self-proclaimed smartest man, you truly do come across as being one of the densest. I don't have all then danged impressive degrees like you do, but when it comes to communicating my points, i think i am pretty clear and concise. Given that, i'm not sure how you have missed both my written and verbal responses? S0, let me try one more time.

The single most important aspect regarding the concept of self-governance in Sun City was the members right to override the boards bylaws. The method and manner has been at the members annual membership meeting. It wasn't an unfettered right, because the board could refer back motions affecting the "business affairs of the corporation." It has been a long standing right for members to submit timely amendments that were under their purview.

As Tom as long requested, he suggested the bylaws define what "business affairs" meant. We saw this working group claim almost every aspect of the board's governance as the board's domain. Ludicrous on its face, but then they really went to work and put the boots to the members rights. They stripped the members of any ability or opportunity to even hold a vote at their annual meeting. The resulting pile of crap was nothing more than hoops to insure nothing ever gets submitted or passed.

Hopefully i have spoken in something other than tongues, because this is now the 6th time i have expressed my concerns and you have either willfully ignored it, or you perhaps are the dullard many suspect you of being.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

I think Bill, Tom and the others have "clearly articulated what rights they want Members to have in the operation of SC", Dave. They want the Members to be able to submit motions and vote on them at the Annual Membership meeting. It's been said and written many, many times during the six years I have been a Member. What part of that don't you understand?

 

John, Don't forget when a past President called us, "You people". So different than what is written in our country's first and foremost document, "We, the people,....."

 

What degrees do you have, Dave? I believe you have one, Bachelor's of something. Are there others?

 

I believe Dave went to the same University as Soupy Sales, Wossamotta U.

 

Bill,
I have told you on more than on occasion about proclaiming myself the smartest man in Sun City and I am sick of it. I have never said it yet you continue on this path. Have I ever referred to you as a hack historian who is basically a one trick pony? No, because I respected your devotion to research even though you never wrote a book on the subject. I haven’t written a book either but it takes time and years.

As for members and motions at the annual meeting, what if the motion is detrimental to the running of the RCSC but the article of Inc. says it prevails, how does this situation be rectified? Go ahead and have some motion submitted and passed by the members that turns out to be terrible. It’s on you and the people behind it and we will see how good is this process.

 

I think you have the intelligence of a head of cauliflower, with apologies to cauliflower.

 

What interest is it of yours regarding my degree, have a BA in history which has served me well, admit it Janet, you really don’t give a damn what the degree I earned, but I will admit that I have a JD in “street law” which is worth more that three years of law school. Have fun with your new found family wherever they may be.

 

I guess you just can't help yourself can you Dave? It's all about calling people names!

The good news is; you have alienated yourself to the point where nobody really believes anything you say anymore.

 

As a matter of fact, you have called me those exact words, the difference is your opinion or feelings about me are meaningless. Your approval of what i say, do or write doesn't register anywhere on the scale 1-10. By the way, you are correct, i have not written a book on Sun City, though i have written two forwards for books just published or soon to be published. Better than that, this 19 part Reader's Digest like-story from the Museum's website was quite well received.

This comment was really at the heart of this discourse, because what we know from 1960-2009 the membership did little to harm the way the community functioned. Sadly, you and the rest of those trying to fix the bylaws failed to understand, the messes created the past 15 years were by the general manager and board members who were clueless on how Sun City was built and why it was successful.

Had you or others taken the time to read the bylaws from 1975, the "business affairs of the corporation" were always protected from membership overreach. We had what i have called "nearly perfect documents." They were the safe guards, the guard rails that kept the board and the management team from that same overreach you blathered about the members trying to achieve (which they never did).

The fact is, the shit pile we found ourselves in wasn't the members fault, it all started when the board decided the general manager should have total control. Think not? Here's the short list:
1). Quorum increase to 1250 with no membership meetings for 12 years.
2). 20 million dollars in deferred maintenance.
3). Technology 15 years behind schedule.
4). Grand Center being built while Mountain View was kicked to the curb.
5). Golf hemorrhaging money with no plan other than cheap golf as our salvation.
6). 3 general managers in the past 5 years.
7). The library debacle.
8). The RCSC refusing to let members vote at their membership meeting.

Let's be really freaking clear Dave, none of these were member driven actions. They all came following the board stripping members from our involvement. We clawed our way back in an effort to restore sanity, direction and purpose. These bylaws put us back on track to shift everything back to the board. It's long been the tragic flaw of Sun City governance: Believing they don't need the membership; they alone can fix what ails us.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

You are the one who brought up the subject of degrees. We all have experience in life equal to the number of years we have lived. Different experiences, none better than the other.

I don't have a "new found" family. My sons have been an integral part of my life for 46 and 44 years respectively. They have each found lovely, bright spouses and have started families, all working in their chosen professions. I moved to the Des Moines area to be closer to share more in their lives and help when needed. It's been a wonderful change for all of us! Since we moved on October 1st, we have been busy! The bureaucracy of getting car licenses, drivers; licenses, registering to vote, change in Bill's VA status has been mind boggling.

 

Look who is calling the kettle black.

 

I will take a stab at laying the roadbed for improvements to self-governance. I should preface this by saying there will always be different views of what to do. Metaphorically speaking: RCSC is a three-legged stool made up of members, Board members and management. For a stool to stand level each leg has to be close to the same length. If one leg grows or shrinks the stool starts to tilt. Thus, ideally, each leg supports the whole in its goal to stay level.

At RCSC keeping the legs the same length has been challenging and can only be done through the rules in the bylaws. The bylaws (and board policies) spell out the rights and authorities of each leg of the stool as allowed under the ANCA and AOI. For many years, some have claimed the GM manipulated the bylaws to secure as much power for herself as she could. For other years, the Board has manipulated the bylaws to secure as much power for itself as possible. One could argue that is what is happening now. In almost all years that I can remember the members, including committee members, have been powerless to impact decisions unless 1. They have one or more board members in their pocket or, 2. They are able to rile other members to rebel. Therefore, the members have no effective voice to stop wasteful actions or to encourage positive changes.
This Board has made clear member engagement is up to each individual member and by implication is not very important. Unlike other communities, RCSC makes no attempt to measure member satisfaction. Members who complain are considered whiners who are entitled to speak no more than 3 minutes a month. No consistent effort to engage the members in conversation about improvements or governance is made.
Committees are useful "endorsements" so long as they agree with everything presented. However, when committees start recommending different ways to accomplish goals that are not in line with the board or managements wishes, their charter usually gets changed to prevent this from happening again.
IMHO the first railroad tie that has to be laid on this train track must be laid by the Board. But by laying this first railroad tie the board may be giving up (delegating) power to spend the members money as it sees fit.
I see the key to meaningful change starting with granting the members the right to remove any or all directors by petition with the petition process being facilitated by RCSC. I suggest, a removal meeting should be able to be called when 1,000 members request it. This single step would make board members more willing to listen to members. There are other provisions that could be adopted with the goal of assuring all three legs of the stool are roughly the same length and the stool remains level.

 

The inmates have been missing over the last 10 or 15 years.
I've said it earlier, the lawyers are now running Sun City.
Will it ever revert back to the days of your grand parents/parents? NEVER
This is the 21st century.
No one likes change, but it happens and we all live through it.
The wannabe lawyers, bylaw and AOI experts among us keep spouting the same crap
over and over but NEVER take any actions that support their convictions.

Again, just my opinion.