Our Dedicated and Beloved SC Posse

So....what the heck is going on between the RCSC and the Posse?

Have you seen this post by the Posse Commander?

Regrettably, the Posse's ongoing discussions with RCSC to allow late night patrols to take place on fairway cart paths have yet to produce results. In joint meetings with RCSC, MCSO, and the Posse, the dark voids of golf courses were identified as known and ideal locations for criminals to hide. They also afford a perfect environment for burglars to operate unseen while selecting targets. And once a crime is committed, golf courses are a perfect avenue for escape as the dark fairways span hundreds and in some cases thousands of yards of undetectable transit to distant parts of the community.

Historically and up until just a few years ago, the Posse effectively, and with the cooperation of RCSC, patrolled the golf courses. Because of an internal need within the Posse, we suspended those patrols temporarily but with the resurgence of criminal activity on and around the courses we requested RCSC to allow a resumption of those patrols.

Initial discussions began some 6 months ago and have yet to move us forward. Consequently, the Posse notified the RCSC general manager late last week that the Posse would immediately cease involvement in all RCSC events until a fruitful relationship and mutual respect between our organizations can be established. This unfortunately includes our involvement directing traffic at today's and future Sun Bowl concerts. We regret any inconvenience this may cause and hope to be back to fully serving our community soon.

A full statement will be released on our Facebook and website by Monday.

Marc Fuller Sun City Posse Commander

 

It's what happens when you neither know nor care about the history and having any clue why Sun City was so successful. We've watched for years as the RCSC acted as it was the only organization that mattered. At least the former gm made the effort to raise money over the years through the annual fund drive. It typically generated 10k as employees and residents were always generous to a fault. Sadly even that fell short of embracing that sense of community we were built around.

This coming election can change the course and help us return to a time when the membership mattered. Hopefully we will use history as one of the tools to help new home owners understand the importance of how we were built and why we were so successful. Think of it this way, every one of those POSSE volunteers are RCSC members, how do you think they feel after 6 months of thumb twiddling?

 

And people continue to wonder why it's hard to recruit volunteers. When their time and expertise isn't valued or appreciated by the organizations they support, volunteers become frustrated, disengaged and demoralized. If RCSC has been stonewalling the Posse about such a critical matter as community crime for 6 months, it's way past time the residents get an answer and action.

 

The POSSE was there in force today and it was a fascinating exchange. Still not sure i can get my head around how this whole thing went so far south. Apparently this has been an issue since last March and while a hot button for them, a non-starter for the RCSC management. Watch it for yourselves and you be the judge?

What i truly found hard to grasp was why there was an off duty sheriff hired to be in the room. Obviously management felt compelled to bring him in, but well beyond my grasp to understand why they threw away the money they paid him to be there. Crowd Control? Watch it for yourself, you be the judge?

The first 40 minutes were taken up by introductions of the board/management/staff along with a lengthy "state of the union" address by the general manager and then brief comments regarding the pending status of open issues. While the golf report was interesting, that whole segment could have been shifted to the board meeting, in they only last about an hour. Watch it for yourself, you be the judge?

Lots of comments regarding the bylaws rewrite with the chairman making any numbers of statements about how it was all consensus driven. One member suggested it looked like the rewrite was for the boards' sake, another said it was real progress. Watch it for yourself, you be the judge who the winners and losers are?

Several comments were made about golf. The glowing report suggested everything was coming up roses. Golf was kicking ass and taking names. Is it? To be really, really clear, no one is suggesting they shut down outside play; the argument is they are selling outside full play half price passes to non-members which ultimately results in tee times that rightfully belong to the members going to those not living in Sun City. Watch it for yourself, you be the judge?

It was indeed a long meeting and interesting to note, another good crowd. Is it a good thing or a bad thing the membership is growing more interested in the concept of self-governance? Watch it for yourself, you be the judge?

 

Talk about lack of communications!!!! If this has been going on since March, then why was it that the board knew nothing about it until yesterday????

Perhaps part of the blame can be placed on the Posse itself for not bringing attention of the RCSC's stall tactics to the board back in March or April? But the Posse doesn't answer to the RCSC but the General Manager does answer to the board! So why didn't the GM make the board aware of this security problem long ago?

Lots of questions... very few answers.

Let's see how long it takes for the board to take some action on this escapade! A Special Session can be called immediately for the board to discuss it (Executive session or not) or a simple sit-down with all parties involved to resolve it. This has certainly gone on far too long!

 

From Sun City Independent 10.10.22

Sun City Posse, RCSC butting heads Golf course patrols sought

Unless a compromise can be worked out, the Sun City Posse will no longer be involved with Recreation Centers of Sun City events.

Posse Commander Marc Fuller sent a communication to Posse members during the weekend saying the organization would no longer provide traffic control at Sun Bowl shows or be involved in other RCSC events until an agreement can be reached allowing Posse patrols on accessible portions of rec centers golf courses.

During the RCSC member/board exchange meeting Monday, Fuller explained Posse officials had made a request in March to allow its night patrols on the courses to spot trespassers and other criminal elements there and report them to Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office.

Since there had been no answer to the request a few weeks ago, the request was repeated. After a phone call with RCSC General Manager Bill Cook Friday provided no results, the Posse board instructed the commander to suspend activities at RCSC events, according to Fuller.

“Regrettably, the Posse’s ongoing discussions with RCSC to allow late night patrols to take place on fairway cart paths have yet to produce results,” Fuller wrote to Posse members.

“Consequently, the Posse notified the RCSC general manager late last week that the Posse would immediately cease involvement in all RCSC events until a fruitful relationship and mutual respect between our organizations can be established.”

Cook said Monday he was still studying the matter, but that certain things have to be accomplished before management would sign off on the patrols.

“It doesn’t look like it would be an issue, but our insurance carrier said there must be policies and procedures in place in the event something is found on the courses,” he said Monday. “We are not saying no to this.”

The Posse had routinely patrolled the courses in the past, but suspended the practice when its vehicle maintenance provider complained water spots were left on the vehicles when sprinklers would start up while they were on the course. But Fuller said that was before the homeless and transient issues arose in the community.

During Monday’s meeting, three RCSC board members suggested the Posse continue its involvement at events until a resolution can be worked out.

Steve Collins asked for a motion to be placed on the board’s meeting agenda later this month to allow the patrols.

Dale Leher and Alan Lenefsky suggested a meeting between management, the Posse and the board to hammer out a solution, hopefully before the next board meeting.

“This can be solved with a sit down meeting,” Lenefsky said.

Photo caption: The Sun City Posse’s night patrols helped cut down on trespassing and other crime in the Grand Avenue corridor and want to do the same on Recreation Centers of Sun City golf courses, but encountered delays from RCSC management.

##
By Rusty Bradshaw Mail | Twitter: @SunCitiesEditor
Posted 10/10/22 Subscriber Exclusive https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/sun-city-posse-rcsc-butting-heads,333632?cb=1665443519

 

Just another in the long line of "who gives a shit about the past" from folks who wouldn't know it if it smacked them in the face. They simply don't care the POSSE has served Sun City well for the past 50 years. They simply don't care, the POSSE are all members of the community and thus members of the RCSC. That's what happens when you turn the RCSC over to outsiders who view it as a job. How we got here matters not. Remember, to them it's just a business; they've point blank told us that. Why should we expect anything different?

It was tragic listening to the POSSE commander having the discussion in front of a board who, shock of shocks, knew nothing about what was going. We heard clearly this has been an issue since March, so when it culminated with the POSSE pulling the patrol on the Sun Bowl show Sunday night, the quick go to was from the board "we didn't know," and from the gm he a personal issue this weekend.

Here's a clue gang, this shitstorm has nothing to do with this weekend, no one expects the gm to be on duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. What we do expect is problems/issues to be discussed between the general manager and the board members before the turn into a stinking fetid mess that's aired in public. I can't help but think back to the session i attended this spring when i heard loudly and clearly at least two board members telling those of us in attendance they were spending 40 hours plus per week taking care of business.

Right. Too bad the general manager didn't take the time to talk to anyone of you living in the offices. As we run from our history, the tenets that made us unique, that made us special, are slipping away. As a community, we deserve better, as an organization, the POSSE deserves better. Apparently, when running a business, community nor organizations are unimportant. That is a really sad state of affairs.

By the way, i wonder where the off duty sheriff's deputy who was in the room will go on the line item budget costs?

 

JEAN TOTTEN as One Day at a Time

It was painful to watch the heated dialogue between Mr. Fuller and GM Cook yesterday. Sometimes a simple, "I'm sorry; perhaps I had my information wrong. Let's get together as soon as possible with Dale and Mike (Ege) (vice president, not secretary Lenefsky; isn't that why he's the vice president?) and see if we can get this worked out" would do wonders to advance the conversation.

 

On the Sun City Posse Website:

An Open Letter to Our Community

The Sun City Posse has for nearly 50 years provided an added layer of safety for our community. While not acting in a law enforcement capacity, we do serve as an effective crime deterrent and act immediately to notify the Sheriff’s Office when observing criminal activity.

With the increase of the homeless and illicit drug users and traffickers, the Posse has responded by changing its tactics. One such change, the addition of the highly successful late-night patrol which has targeted and further identified locations of those undesirable elements, has enjoyed success due to the partnership between the Posse, the Sheriff’s Office, and property owners. And while problems along the Grand Avenue area still exist, many of the hangouts used by drug traffickers and other lawbreakers have been eradicated through the anti-trespassing program, forcing them either out of Sun City or into unpatrolled areas within Sun City such as golf courses, particularly the North Golf course located at the Oakmont Rec Center.

While every other business we work with in Sun City has welcomed and partnered with us in solving our community’s crime problems, we have been unable to secure permission to patrol accessible areas of RCSC golf courses. In a recent conversation with the RCSC general manager, he emphasized he was “working on” our request to patrol the courses but had many processes to go through before a decision could be made, despite initial conversations that took place six months ago. He further stated he saw no urgency in granting access to the courses. The Posse strongly disagrees with this position and believes the residents that are being burglarized would also disagree. We stand shoulder to shoulder with the community and the Sheriff’s Office against the criminals and consider delays or unwarranted obstacles to protecting our citizens unacceptable, allowing criminals to operate unchecked in the dark.

Effective immediately, due to ambiguities and contradictions as well as a lack of any meaningful support from RCSC, the Posse Board has elected to cease involvement in RCSC sponsored events, including Sun Bowl concerts, until such time the RCSC management is willing to enter into a cooperative agreement allowing the Posse to assist MCSO in the protection of our community. We will, however, continue supporting the clubs and citizens of Sun City as we have for 49 years.

https://suncityposse.org/

 

Exchange Video is Up!!
2:59.26
Commander Fuller at 1:38.30
If the video appears as a black box, tap WATCH ON YOUTUBE


**RCSC Members/Cardholders may view the above-referenced RCSC Member/Board Exchange meeting, held on Monday, October 10, 2022 in the Sundial Auditorium. This video will remain posted for 120 days.

 

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North Golf Course Night Patrols
RCSC Members/Cardholders and Sun City residents who reside adjacent to the North Golf Course are advised RCSC has hired a uniformed Maricopa County Sheriff’s Deputy to conduct night patrols of the North Golf Course periodically over the next week. This patrol will provide RCSC with an assessment of any illegal activities occurring on the golf course after hours (transient/trespassing).

Please be aware that you may see flashlights and a uniformed Maricopa County Sheriff’s Deputy on foot or riding a golf maintenance vehicle over the next week at times when the golf course is closed (which could be anywhere from early evening until dawn). Should you have any concerns there is someone on the North Golf Course or any RCSC property that should not be there, please contact the MCSO non-emergency number at (602) 876-1011. For any emergency situations, you should always call 911.

We also ask that you alert any neighbors who may not receive RCSC News Email Alerts about this upcoming activity so they are aware of these efforts.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and understanding

​

 

Hmmmm? So where does that leave the relationship between the Posse and the RCSC?

Is the RCSC still stiff-arming the Posse?

 

The only positive vibe I get from this is "over the next week" - they didn't say "from now on" - which hopefully means they are talking and repairing the rift.

 

Make this real quick. I believe the rcsc is looking out for the safety of the posse and deploying a real MCSO officer who can use lethal Force if needed. This will take the liability off the rcsc my opinion only look at it anyway you want but as dangerous as it is out there this is what makes sense. And showing that real officers are going to be patrolling may make these people think twice before they vandalize any of our properties!

 

It's called damage control say what. If you watch the video of member/board exchange, you will see how embarrassing it was for both the general manager and more so, the board of directors to be confronted by the POSSE. The board said they knew nothing and the general manager couldn't understand why this was such a big deal. The POSSE commander stated this has been going on since March (and offered to provide tapes proving it).

Simple answer was to quick run and spend a bunch of money on off-duty sheriff's department officers. No surprise there, as this is becoming the new go to source for problem solving. Hell we had one sitting in the corner at the Monday meeting in case the POSSE got rowdy? Seriously, i can't explain their presence. We now know they've been hiring off duty officers to patrol the Grand Center and Oakmont. Wonder if we have a line item for that on the financials yet?

Watch the meeting. The RCSC looked like crap during the exchange. After 6 months of no golf course patrols, walla, problem solved. So who cares how much it costs? Let me be clear, it's not the money. It's the blatant disrespect and disregard for the POSSE as an organization. It was apparent, the history and the 50 year relationship the POSSE has had with the RCSC means nothing. If i told you the POSSE checks doors on every golf course pro shop (and has forever) after hours would you be surprised? If i told you they regularly cruise rec center parking lots, would you be surprised? You already know, they provide traffic control at the Sun Bowl and other RCSC events, so that shouldn't be a surprise should it?

With each passing day, i see how little the history of the community means to the RCSC. No surprise though is it. When you hire people who know nothing about it and you elect board members who simply don't care and are ready willing and able to relinquish their responsibilities to the hired help, you get what you get.

It will get solved, but the bruised egos will take a long time to be soothed.

 

Bill, where did you get your facts the Deputy that was at the exchange was hired by RCSC to be in attendance? Is this a fact? I have personally seen him at many meetings in Sun City. He is the liaison for the sheriff's office, that's his job and was likely invited to be there by the Posse (my speculation, you can fact check me by contacting Fuller and asking directly). The Posse's decision was childish. They have both GM and the Posse, admitted to having ongoing meetings and communications, Fuller just didn't get his way as fast as he wanted or what he wanted and his ego got the best of him. What person that claims they want to be respected and have a good relationship behaves in this way? He demands respect but doesn't give it. Taping a conversation, being pushy for answers, getting so angry. As a former CEO and business owner, Mark Fuller's behavior as the head of that organization wouldn't be something I would allow to represent my organization. He's a liability pushing the Posse to perform what are security functions and as I understand it, you must be certified in Arizona to perform security functions. Patrolling is a security function and what good is it if they cannot take law enforcement action? It just causes unnecessary delay. They don't have a special bat phone to the Sheriff's Department. He said it on tape, their radio's don't connect. There are wonderful people that volunteer for the Posse and they are a valued asset to Sun City. I hope their board realizes they need new leadership and perhaps a few new board members.

 

I love facts too. I agree that based on exchange, Fuller could have waited another week, or contacted Board member directly before going public. Regarding your comments above, I would need to be certified if my neighbor asked me to watch his house and walk around his yard a few times while he was on vacation?? Do I need firearms training for that??? The "good" in it is that they report activity, unlocked doors, suspicious persons, etc. And yes, normally they don't have a bat-phone, but sometimes they do: "when we have a deputy working with us he has one of our radios and responds withing seconds" video time stamp: 1:54:13

 

The General Manager!

It's my opinion that this issue, being an issue regarding security, should have been brought to the attention of the Board by the GM back in March or April. The Posse doesn't answer to the RCSC but the General Manager does answer to the Board!

I'm sure the Posse learned a valuable lesson as well. If you need an issue to be addressed in a timely manner go directly to the Board.

 

None of us were in these meetings, we don't know what was discussed. We do know meetings were regularly scheduled, communication was established and relationships were formed. Someone didn't get their way. That's how I saw it at the exchange. It looked like a tantrum to me.

 

The board definitely should have been informed by Cook!
Yes, he is employed to work for them, they are supposed to work on our behalf, “in the interest of the Members.”
Unfortunately, the board does what the GM tells them to do and uses the GM’s practice of delaying decisions, often citing waiting legal advice from “their” attorneys or misinterpreted bylaws!