Kind of says it all.

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just got the minutes from the Sept 30th meeting The crowd was one of the largest in a very long time. They were boisterous and outspoken. They weren't rude unless you count periodic groans when board members took an unpopular position. Overall it went better than i had anticipated.

    I've had the good fortune on serving on all kinds of boards and committees since coming here. Along with those come the minutes written to reflect what was said and by whom. There's several schools of thought of how much and what should be recorded. Most try and error on the side of saying too little rather than too much. Many don't care all that much one way or the other.

    It was with a morbid curiosity as i opened the RCSC minutes from the Sept 30 board meeting. How would they handle the most significant meeting in recent history? How detailed would it be? What would they say about what happened? Amazing? Disappointed? Frustrated? The problem simply becomes the video someday soon goes away and the only record will be what they wrote in the minutes.

    Yup, all of the above. We were treated to a full statement of the gm's opening comments; all 5 paragraphs with her 5 bullet points. Then we got the business portion, motions and actions taken. Finally, we saw a summary of the near on 3 hours of members comments. Here is what it said:
    "Member Comments: The majority of the members expressed their concerns on the two agenda items being discussed today and asked the Board not to approve the motions. A number of members discussed the collection of club attendance data. Other items of discussion were the Annual Membership Meeting, the September 13th Board Meeting, the PIF and other miscellaneous subjects."

    I know, i'm being picky, but sterilizing that meeting and making sure the gm's comments were recorded in detail kind of says it all about how they feel about the membership. We really just don't matter very much do we?
     
    Cheri Marchio and eyesopen like this.
  2. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Active Member

    I, too, noticed the lack of verbiage re: the "discussion" on the motions. I, like others, feel that the minutes for the meetings are way too brief. I used to be the Executive Secretary for a CEO and the Board. Those members demanded that I put more detail in my minutes. One calendar year I tried to start abbreviating the minutes, not going into so much detail, but oh no, they would not have it. I almost had to type verbatim what was said, especially on contentious meetings.

    Just because it's always done that way, doesn't make it right.
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  3. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    What is the procedure to correct the minutes BEFORE the Board votes to approve? Is there ever the opportunity offered, as it should be?

    “Minutes: Motion by Secretary Lehrer to approve Minutes as written, seconded by Treasurer Rooney. The Minutes of the June 24, 2021 Board Meeting were unanimously approved.

    Minutes: Motion by Vice President Ege to approve Minutes as written, seconded by Director Schroeder. The Minutes of the September 13, 2021 Meeting were unanimously approved.

    Minutes: Motion by Director Akins to approve Minutes as written, seconded by Secretary Lehrer. The Minutes of the September 20, 2021 Special Session were unanimously approved.”


    https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/up...day-Board-Meeting-Agenda-with-Attachments.pdf

    Per Robert’s Rules of Order:

    Procedure:
    The chair says, “The Secretary will read the minutes.” (41:9) Or, if drafts of the minutes have been sent to all members in advance, the chair announces that this has been done, and the actual reading of them aloud is omitted unless any member then requests that they be read. NOTE: A draft of the minutes circulated to members must be clearly marked as such (41:12).
    If for any reason there are minutes of other meetings in addition to the last meeting that have not yet been approved, they are taken up from earliest to latest. (41:9)
    A formal motion to approve the minutes is not necessary. (41:10)
    The only proper way to object to the approval of the secretary’s draft of the minutes is to offer a correction to it. (41:11)
    With or without a formal motion, the chair asks, “Are there any corrections to the minutes?” (41:10)
    Corrections, when proposed, are usually handled by unanimous consent, but if any member objects to a proposed correction, a motion to Amend may be moved. (41:10)
    When there are no or no further corrections, the chair states, “Since there are no (or “nor further”) correctons, the minutes are approved as circulated (or “as corrected”). (41:11)
     
  4. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Well technically, "Content of the Minutes. In an ordinary society, the minutes should contain mainly a record of what was done at the meeting, not what was said by the members. The minutes must never reflect the secretary's opinion, favorable or otherwise, on anything said or done." (RONR 48:2)

    I get it though. Many members want to know and understand the arguments, pro and con, so that they can better form their own opinion and conclusion if the same motion were to come up in the future.

    One could say that the GM's comments were only included because they were placed on file!?!?
     
  5. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    It was all done properly! The motion to approve the Minutes was made, the motion was seconded, then the chair asked if there was any discussion (debate). Since there was no debate or corrections the motion to approve was voted on and passed.
     
  6. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    What’s up with the change in presenting RCSC Membership Card to attend Board Meetings being eliminated?

    They’re not afraid of members now?

    “All RCSC Cardholders are welcome to attend RCSC Board Meetings. Currently, you are NOT required to present your RCSC Member or Privilege Card upon entry. Thank you for your patience and cooperation.”
     
  7. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    That did not happen according to the minutes.
     
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It is the board's meeting and we are just there as guests. A board member would be the person to question/challenge the veracity of the minutes.

    They are gracious enough to give us members a meeting, except we haven't had enough people since the board made the arbitrary decision to change the quorum to an unreachable number. Just think of it this way, it's our fault we don't get enough members to have a voice; not theirs for arising it that high.

    September of 2009 baby. A long freaking time ago.
     
  9. OneDayAtATime

    OneDayAtATime Active Member

    Eyes_Open: What meeting minutes would you have liked to see corrected? Or were you just asking a question if it could be done?
     
  10. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Go watch the video at about the 8 minute mark. The motion was made, seconded, and the chair asked if there was any discussion/debate.
     
  11. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Okay, then the minutes for the September 30th meeting WILL state that? Previous minutes do not indicate that’s standard practice.
    Why bother to distribute minutes in advance to the MEMBERS if opportunity to identify errors and suggest corrections is not provided?
     
  12. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Noticed the minutes of proceedings did not include the prompt asking for corrections or comments prior to minutes being approved.
    This is an important issue for accuracy!
     
  13. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    The only thing required to be in the Minutes are those things that were done, not things that were said!

    Officially, the only thing that was required to be stated in the Minutes were: "The motion to approve the Minutes was made by director XYZ, seconded, and approved or approved as corrected."
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  14. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Oh, this Board only follows Robert’s Rules when they want to, sorry, “I forgot.” Oh, well, is what it is.
    “The only proper way to object to the approval of the secretary’s draft of the minutes is to offer a correction to it. (41:11)
    With or without a formal motion, the chair asks, “Are there any corrections to the minutes?” (41:10)
    Corrections, when proposed, are usually handled by unanimous consent, but if any member objects to a proposed correction, a motion to Amend may be moved. (41:10)
    When there are no or no further corrections, the chair states, “Since there are no (or “nor further”) correctons, the minutes are approved as circulated (or “as corrected”). (41:11)”
     
  15. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Since you're quoting Robert's Rules, go read 49:21, Procedures in Small Boards.
     
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    So where does the gm's lengthy statement fit into that theory?
     
  17. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Well, I would say it was only included as part of the record. All the Minutes were required to say was that the GM made a statement! But if that was all that was said in the Minutes I'm quite sure everybody would be asking, "What did she say?"

    It's the same deal with lengthy committee reports. The entire report was not read into the Minutes but was included in the record.
     
  18. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Thanks, good to know IF attendance
    drops to below 12 members at a RCSC Board meeting…sure hope that never happens!

    “49:21 Procedure in Small Boards.
    In a board meeting where there are not more than about a dozen members present, some of the formality that is necessary in a large assembly would hinder business. The rules governing such meetings are different from the rules that hold in other assemblies, in the following respects:
    1) Members may raise a hand instead of standing when seeking to obtain the floor, and may remain seated while making motions or speaking.
    2) Motions need not be seconded.
    3) There is no limit to the number of times a member can speak to a debatable question.3 Appeals, however, are debatable under the regular rules—that is, each member (except the chair) can speak only once in debate on them, while the chair may speak twice.
    4) Informal discussion of a subject is permitted while no motion is pending.
    5) When a proposal is perfectly clear to all present, a vote can be taken without a motion’s having been introduced. Unless agreed to by unanimous consent, however, all proposed actions must be approved by vote under the same rules as in larger meetings, except that a vote can be taken initially by a show of hands, which is often a better method in small meetings.”

    Much more:
    https://01fac7b6250d493d1127-d8590c..._1615816036_roberts-rules-on-small-boards.pdf
     
  19. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    You've got me baffled on that response!?!?!?!?

    What that means is; since the board is only made up of 9 members it could and should be using the "Procedures in Small Boards"! It has nothing to do with the attendance because the board meetings are not member meetings. We are only allowed to attend by virtue of the bylaws!

    When the board meetings are referred to as an "assembly" the only members of that assembly are the members of the board.
     
  20. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Let's put it in perspective, since Sept of 2009...the board's meetings 120, the memberships meetings 0.

    Kind of say it all eh?
     
    eyesopen likes this.

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