It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 30, 2022.

  1. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Wow! I couldn't disagree with you Say What any stronger! We're already loosing money with the golf courses we already own so purchasing another golf course is just throwing good money on top of bad! It would only increase our loses!

    I didn't really agree when they purchased the Grand Avenue property. Sure, we needed a better facility for the Vintage Vehicle Club but we certainly didn't need another Recreation Center! It's not like Sun City is a growing community. We only have a fixed number of homes and Members so why do we need to keep on expanding the assets?

    As the amenities increase so will the need to increase your assessment!
    eyesopen likes this.
  2. Cheri Marchio

    Cheri Marchio Active Member

    Say What - you have some explaining to do. Words matter.
    Your group. Are you referring to Sun City Advocates? It is not Bill's group. He is a member along with 100s of other Sun City residents.
    Out of control. How so, by speaking our minds? Our opinions are practically the only recourse we have as members to be heard for consideration. How is sharing our opinions, out of control?
    People are going to push back on everything you are going to do? Everything, hmm. We have seen it proven that members are thirsty for education, thirsty for transparency, and thirsty for choice and the ability to be heard.
    Going to do? Our goal is to communicate what is going on and give members the information and knowledge to choose the best path forward, best candidates, best options for community investments, most informed summary of Board fiduciary performance, etc. The choice is theirs alone to make.
    Please give examples of threatening language from the SCA communications. Our purpose is to Communicate, Educate and encourage Participation for those interested in community self-governance in opposition of the members' rights that have been stripped away from us over the last 15+ years. We have not threatened anyone. We feel threatened by certain Board and Management accusing us of threatening behavior that can be best explained simply by 'different or opposite ' point of view. How is that threatening?
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2022
    eyesopen, BPearson and OneDayAtATime like this.
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    You are starting to lose it. What do you mean by prime tee time? It's killing me to type but I have to make you understand that any tee time is prime and forget about "outsiders" as you put it. The members of Sun City get what they can book. There are alot of residents male and female that golf. What is prime? It's what any member wants in the winter that specific time. You want 8am 9am 12pm 1pm? What are you considering prime,?

    Sorry about your pain say what, but for somebody accusing someone of "losing it," my best guess is there wouldn't be a contest about which one of us is more sane. I suspect you mean well, but your logic would fail anyone with a live brain cell. With 10,000 reads and countless comments you cannot even grasp the most basic of concepts being discussed here.

    Dude, the question posed over and over and over again really is simple. It's not about people having lived here 25 years, not about men and women golfers and their ability to shoot lower scores, or even whether an older Sun City resident gets better tee times than the guy that moved in last week. You've simply missed the point. Let me spell it out in bold so you can try and give me a straight answer without confusing it with paying PIF based on whether or not they are on the deed. Take a deep breath, get some oxygen and answer the questions.

    In fact, i will make it really simple for you. My questions will just be yes or no:
    Question #1) Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should pay less for golf than golfers living in Sun City?
    Yes or No?

    Question #2). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever get tee times ahead of golfers living in Sun City?
    Yes or No?
    Question #3). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever get golf cars ahead of golfers living in Sun City?
    Yes or No?
    Question #4). Do you think golfers living outside Sun City should ever rent golf cars for less money than golfers living in Sun City?
    Yes or No?

    These aren't trick questions. There's no need to agonize or complicate your answers with too much thought. You either believe that the amenities that we all bought and paid for belong to us, or you believe the management team has the right to give them away to non-members. Hopefully this will allow you to get your head around what is going on and why members are upset. Best of all it allows you to just type in your answers to each question; Yes, or No.

    Looking forward to your response.

  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    My bad. After i posted my comments to say what, it dawned on me perhaps many of those following this thread have no idea what i meant by prime time tee times. Rather than go into a lengthy discourse on the times golfers like to play, let me just explain it as simple as possible. Prime tee times are most often the winter months when players are more inclined to want to play, thus harder to get those more desirable times. For as long as i have been here, the RCSC has used the lottery, drawing system for them.

    Virtually every course in Arizona has a defined summer schedule where they sell tee times cheap. Some use staggered months of the year with prices fluctuating. The RCSC is more consistent, their most sought after times are Nov 1 through April 30. Summer fees, May 1 through Oct 31 are way cheaper. So for those who don't know, the winter months are the ones we are talking about. Makes sense, because that's when everyone is back and looking to play.

    Hope that helps folks understand.
  5. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    1 no
    2 no
    3 used to b if you needed a cart they would ask at that time when you booked the tee time or you were sol regardless who you were. People walk in and expect to get a cart. It doesn't work that way no matter who you are. Cats r limited.
    4 never
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the prompt response say what. Your 2 no's and 1 never are the way, most Sun City residents would answer. Your golf car response is based on what used to be that is no longer the case. It's not that simple anymore.

    There are around 150 full play/non-resident passes that are active right now. Approximately 100 of them purchased the $500 add-on to be guaranteed a golf car every time they play. Back in your playing days, there were a handful of them. Now days, those 100 passes get a golf car before a resident who walks on to a course and wants to play. That same golf car will cost me (or you) $12. You can have a friend ride along and share the cost. That outsider is guaranteed the golf car for his/her one time payment of $500. I was told legally they can't share the car, but that's ludicrous on it's face. The 100 rounds they play, even without having a buddy jump in the car with them is $5 per round. Imagine what happens when their golfing buddy jumps in the golf car after leaving the first tee box; that cost is now $2.50 per round.

    In 1984 the residents formed a group called "Stop the Steal." Members were crazed the management and board were giving away access to developers for next to nothing when building in Sun City. The response was immediate and quite pointed. If a builder wanted to build and access our amenity package, they needed to pay a substantial entry fee. Sun City is as unique and special as it as because so many have given so much to make it that way. Why would we ever believe giving it to non-residents makes sense?

    Giving away what we have all paid for to those not living here is foolishness. Glad to see we agree.
  7. eyesopen

    eyesopen Active Member

    RCSC Board’s corporate loyalty elixir, how long for the effects to wear off? Years, if ever?
    Asking for a friend!
  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Depends on the coming election. If the majority tips to those who believe the membership should have both a voice and their rights initially given in their documents, it would begin to transition almost immediately. The first and most significant change would have to start with the general manager. He would either need to grasp he works for the board or he should be replaced. Nope, not arguing he should be fired, he simply has to change how he is currently doing his job.

    The board for years has protected and insulated the management team from any accountability. The mistakes, and there's been a boatload, have simply been swept under the rug and ignored. No one is perfect, nor should they be expected to perform that way. What can no longer be tolerated is operating behind a veil of secrecy and the "trust me mantra." That's exactly how we got to this point.

    Change will be slow, but that's okay. Staying the course is not okay. Nothing can be a better amplifier than what has happened regarding outside play by golfers. Although, i am hearing rumblings there's more of a shit show coming where the members are just being dismissed out of hand. We'll see eh?
  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Hey all, i know we keep being told no one cares about golf in Sun City, but since yesterday (24 hours ago) there's been 300 reads on this thread.
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    For those of you who don't follow the Sun City Advocates blog, we've been having a curious and spirited debate regarding golf. A former board member has stepped up to defend the RCSC's honor and proclaim we don't know what we/i am talking about. His contention is golf's numbers are nowhere near as bad as we claim they are.

    He uses the argument that he is smarter than everyone else in the room and has all of the financial data to put the subject to bed. He's been on the finance and budget committee for years and that added to his work history makes him better suited to make the claims golf is actually profitable. Having served on the board with him for a year, we often disagreed.

    My time spent on the board with the RCSC, was troubling. I found information and data to be extremely difficult to get clear answers on. Worse yet, i know they loved to play "hide the weenie" when it came to posting golf financials and how it was spent. The vast majority of golfers on the board simply had no interest.

    But alas, that's all old news. Because yesterday the contention was made and he wrote this: "BTW, golf has posted a positive $1.3 million net of depreciation through 8 months." There you go, straight from the horses mouth, golf is doing spectacularly well in 2022.

    Here's the one little problem we have. All of the information we have posted comes straight from filings from the RCSC to the federal government. When we asked Dave about those 990 reports, he had no idea what they were. Okay, neither did i until a poster put the link on TOSC and we could search the past 12 or 13 years. Once we looked at them, we all asked; "how could the information the RCSC is sending to the feds be so far removed what they have been telling all of us?"

    It's a reasonable question and one Dave dared not answer, because the question to him was even more daunting; "why would the RCSC lie on the forms send to the federal government?" Our unique tax status is predicated on the fact the RCSC was created to benefit the membership. The Articles of Incorporation define the exact reason for their existence.

    The answer of course is, they wouldn't. It's one thing to fudge on the numbers you show the members, it's a wholly different case when it comes to bullshitting the IRS; in my humble opinion. So, with that setup out of the way, let me make another cup of coffee and then let's chat about me being totally wrong and Dave being totally right. This is where it gets interesting.
    Carol likes this.
  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Back with you, the cup is full and hot so life is good. Unlike Dave, i have no interest in convincing you i'm the smartest guy in the room. The reason is simple, i'm not. In fact, knowing that is helpful, because when i don't know, i just freely admit i don't know. The thing i do know is i get fairly involved in trying to understand what is going on around me, at least if it is of interest to me.

    Sun City, our history and our governance is my passion. One of the things i learned early on in all of the continuing education courses i took was this simple premise; the more you said, wrote or involved yourself in, the more likely you were to be wrong. Pretty simple premise; if you sit in the corner and keep your mouth shut, you will seldom make a mistake.

    With that out of the way, let's assume for discussion purposes, Dave is 100% right and i am 100% wrong. Let's assume golf's resurgence has helped the RCSC turn the corner and golf has the RCSC rolling in cash (which they are by the way, but not because of golf). Let's further assume i should drape myself in sack cloth and cover my face in ashes to repent. See how easy it is to humble ones self.

    If all of that is true, that golf's numbers are booming and we have truly found the holy grail, why the hell are we selling half price golf passes to people who live outside the walls? We know, the sale of those full play non-resident passes will result in 300k in revenue this year. We know the general manager has told us, we need that revenue to keep the RCSC from raising golf rates on the members. We also know, those full play golf passes are taking 12,000-13,000 tee times that belong to the members, not some ass wipe living in Phoenix or one of its suburbs.

    So, which is it, we don't need the money, or we do? Because if we don't need the money why in God's name are we letting outsiders have free run of our courses, our golf cars and our tee times? You be the judge, because i know where my money lies.

    BTW, if we don't need the money and Dave is spot on, then the board of directors may want to check with their attorney regarding a breech of their fiduciary obligations. One could argue if golf is in the financial outhouse, the money is needed; if not, then there's no reason to allow outsiders access. Yikes!
  12. Larry

    Larry Member

    Let’s take a different approach to this. If there are 25,000 rooftops in SC. That would mean that about $12.5 million is collected annually. Even if golf loses $2.5 a year, that’s $10 million left over. No entity or activity that I’m aware of is a money-making proposition in SC. Look what that investment provides. Do you think our community would be as desirable without golf? And how would that be accomplished since there are deed restrictions on the properties?
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    There's actually 27,500 rooftops. I'm always conflicted by the number of members the RCSC reports, with their latest claim of 32,600. Back in the days, the totals of actual members was in the 35,000 to 38,000 range. We know some of it is due to the high number of rentals. Those folks can buy privilege cards and aren't "members." Lots of residents here own numerous homes they rent out and are only considered members in the home they live in.

    To your point Larry and i thought we were past this, the issue here isn't whether golf is profitable or not. The question that has been hammered home is this: should outsiders be allowed to come into Sun City and buy half-price golf? And let's be clear, it's way cheaper than half price. I can post the numbers and show you. I've done so repeatedly and now the question is:"Does the golfing community care?" Do you care whether outsiders are coming into Sun City at a fraction of the cost members pay? Do you care whether they are taking your tee times? Do you care if they are guaranteed a golf car and members can't get them?

    It's been pointed out to me, i was the only one who spoke to the golf issue at the member/board exchange meeting in Sept. No one else was there to complain. I freely admit there are roughly 4200 golfers in Sun City, approximately 12% (that would include privilege card holders). That's a good number of folks. I've also freely admitted golf is an integral piece of the puzzle in Sun City's amenity package.

    That said, it's like everything else, at what cost? The biggest problem is sadly, they (the RCSC) has shown no capacity for honesty when it comes to golf. The closest they came was last May when Chris gave the golf report/summary (which was interesting). And to be clear, i have no qualms about subsidizing golf, with these two caveats:
    1). No subsidy for outside play; NONE.
    2). Let the community see how much it is? Sorry, but it can't just be an unlimited blank check, not for golf, not for anything.
    Carol and eyesopen like this.
  14. Larry

    Larry Member

    We continue to write blank checks on every activity and every venue. The board has opened the door for a huge capitol expenditure with no cost control attached. Unless and until we receive a complete itemized profit and loss statement, nobody knows where the money came from or where the money went. Remember, figures don’t lie, but liars figure.
    Cheri Marchio likes this.
  15. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It's exactly why we've argued for a forensic audit when the general manager left and a new one hired. Rumor has it, that was his best qualification, he had no interest in looking back so as he started his journey forward he had a benchmark. The good news is the RCSC is awash in cash, the bad news is their history of how it is spent is non-existent; at least to the membership and apparently certain board members have trouble accessing it as well.

    I cannot imagine either a board member or RCSC member having to do anything other than say, i want to see it. We'll put that theory to a test here shortly when i ask to see the 990's for 2020 and 2022. One was due a year ago, the latest was due in April but they have a right to request an extension. That time period is quickly coming to its expiration date so we'll see how the gm responds to my request. Should be interesting.
    eyesopen likes this.
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just took a look at the board meeting agenda for Sept 29. Interesting to see this motion from Director Nowakosksi: 2). I move that all annual golf passes do not include a golf car rental as part of the package.
  17. Larry

    Larry Member

    I’m betting it won’t pass, but it’s a move in the right direction. Also need the guest rate to be abolished.
    eyesopen likes this.
  18. Larry

    Larry Member

    That’s MCSO’s job, not RCSC employees to handle
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I suspect you are right Larry. The bigger problem is Sun City has wrapped it's construct around a structure that never gets reviewed and simply stays the same year after year. My preference would be for the golf committee and golfing community engage in a realistic discussion as to what works for them going forward. Their biggest problem is they measure success by the number of rounds played. Moving from 300,000 rounds to 350,000 rounds put a strain on tee times and the quality of the courses. Using that as the barometer is worthless. Cheap golf is foolishness. Well priced golf for the members would be a great starting point. Selling open tee times is fine to outsiders but it should always be more than what members are asked to pay.

    Sun City has the cheapest golf in the West Valley. That's crazy. Non-members being able to play for $20 a round and get a cart with it is even more nuts. The first thing they should do is an analysis of every course around us to compare what our competition is doing. I've come around to subsidizing golf, but it all starts with it for our members, not somebody living outside the community.
    eyesopen likes this.
  20. Larry

    Larry Member

    I t
    hink people should view golf just like every other activity in Sun City. Every activity is subsidized. Golf should be tested no differently. In my opinion, even $3 million a year spent on the program is a bargain. It’s difficult to measure the actual value golf brings to our community but it far outweighs the cost.

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