Help me out here

Most of the group here has said they want Title 10 vs 33 because of local control. Now suddenly that “local control” is going to strip us of any input into the process we had. Am I missing something here? Explain to me why 10 is better than 33 and I am totally serious about it.

 

Larry,
My explanation would be that this current bylaw situation will be a transitional period. One in which additional measures will need to be redressed and redone. Title 10 offers almost unlimited freedoms to choose and create what the board can do for the corporation. It works best when the corporation remembers that the members are the corporation.
Rather than get into doublespeak, everything done is modifiable. Title 10 allows for almost complete control to the corporation. The discussion around ANCA is limited to the corporate structure that I can tell. There still exists numerous opportunities to create member involvement. Title 10 allows for modifications to the organization to create whatever the needs are and meet state guidelines. The homeowner has complete freedom to do whatever they want under Title 10, as the governance is somewhat less restrictive. The recent bylaws revisions are going to need additional changes to make them meet the needs of Sun City. Title 10 is written for corporate structure.
Title 33 is a statute directly related to homeowner organizations and how they operate within a community. The rules, depending on the language established for each HOA, can be somewhat more restrictive in how it directs the activities of the members. Things such as restrictions on placement of flags and when and some cases, Christmas lights, can go up and come down. Parking in front of your house or how many cars in your driveway are part of the HOA structure that Title 33 governs. My biggest concern with Title 33 is the big brother aspect of the rules. It’s almost as if there are so many rules that on the initial glance look rather nonchalant. What I have heard are there are those who deem those rules as absolute and report their neighbors on what most would consider nitpicking items.
Title 10 affords the rights to the corporation but relies on the articles of incorporation to rule rather than state laws.
I hope I explained that well enough to offer a glimpse into the details of the differences. I made amendments to the original version to try to clarify.
Rewritten 11/4

 

Good question! Title 10 doesn't seem to be working so well for RCSC Members anymore. I wonder if a motion from a Member to change to Title 33 would be permissible under the new bylaws or would that be considered ""business affairs of the corporation".

 

Backstory:
SUN CITY INDEPENDENT
January 16, 2013
FRONT PAGE STORY
Title 10 vs. Title 33
Attorney requests changes, resident gears for lawsuit
By Rusty Bradshaw
HERE

 

Janet,
You believe that Title 33 would make Sun City a better place? I direct you to look at the chaos over the past 10 years in Sun City West as to assessments, Board turner over including recall of entire Boards, management issues and ask yourself, is this what we want, how much better would we be off, would we be better off? The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence until you hop over and find it is really a noxious, invasive species you cannot get rid of. Not saying that is representative of SCW but an example of statute hopping.
What has surprised me throughout this by laws thing is the amount of bellyaching about the business affairs of the corporation and the members interfering with same. Shouldn’t they be really asking how can we assist in the running the business affairs of the corporation which in my personal and legal opinion is is totally acceptable. Yes, we have committees but there are members who could suggest solutions or at least ideas to solve some problems.

The biggest problem I see at the moment involves fun’s for operational revenue, that is money for day to day operations. The only option at the moment is raising fees but the question is always how much and where is it being spent? I am not comfortable doing every year but numbers don’t lie.

The next problem is maintenance or in budget speak, capital improvements. This is not PIF but what RCSC manages that need repair, replacement or painting, etc. I see the problem as we have older structures that are not getting younger that require some form of Capital improvement now and over the next five years (yes we have a written plan concerning these issues) but will the CIF be able to keep up with the needs and if not, where will the funds come from.

Right now the only people tackling these problems are the Budget, Finance &Audit committee and Kevin Mc Curdy and his financial team. I am part of this and these are very smart people with long experience in the field. I will even admit that they are smarter than myself as they have much broader experience in the field but I can keep up with the discussions. I believe we require an expanded fresh set of eyes on the problems that might see something we are missing.

So there are two instances where the members can step forward and assist.

D

 

Most likely, yes.
Jean

 

Perhaps our new GM might be that fresh set of eyes.
Jean

 

Dave,
I understand the challenges of operating with aging buildings. The country club I belonged to for 50 years was built in 1965. Some members, jokingly, suggested that we bulldoze the restaurant (upper level) into the swimming pool solving both problems that usually lost money. Many of the schools and hospital areas were old - some of them built pre-WW II. European countries maintain buildings that are older than our country! It is an issue dealt with around the world and throughout our nation. RCSC isn't unique in that respect.

For the amount of time I spend in Sun City, I prefer to devote my volunteer time to the Foundation. I have found it rewarding to work with people who need the assistance that the Foundation and its donors provide. I also serve on a committee for my golf league. I will continue to attend Board meetings and Exchanges to keep up on decisions that may impact the investment I have made there. If I find I have additional time, I would like to volunteer at one of the area's elementary schools. Sometimes I just need that "kid fix". There is close school in Peoria and another one either in Youngtown or closeby.

I do not know if Title 33 would be better that Title 10. All I know is that RCSC has had unending chaos since I purchased my current place in 2020. There are remedies but none seem to be used. I will offer a few - Board training and development, Master Plan, long range planning, whatever you want to call it, conducting business in open sessions (including committee work) and finding ways to lessen the time that Directors spend fulfilling their duties. One aspect of the recommended bylaws is having someone other that a Board member be vicechair of committees. I think they could do the same with liaisons with other community organizations. Perhaps that is in the Board policies or just Board practice. Why couldn't a Member be a liaison to the fire department or Friends of the Library? They could give updates to the Board and Members at meetings. What a wonderful way to encourage Member engagement!

Dave, if you could, please give me an example of a Member motion that would not be considered "business affairs of the corporation". Waiting.......

 

This might be a stretch, but Tom’s motion incorporating the Annual member meeting to be held in March. He originally had a specific time I believe, but during our discussions we ran into the Force Majuere question. We decided it would best to adopt his language of sorts but state that it would be held in March.

 

Dave,

I think this is a commonsense solution derived from Tom's amendment. However, you failed to provide a procedure for when the meeting cannot be held in March.

John

 

Thanks, Dave, for providing a concrete example of a Member motion that would not be considered "business affairs of the corporation". I don't think it is a stretch at all.

If you recall I was the one that suggested we have the Annual Membership meeting in March in our Bylaws review in 2022. My reasoning was that the financials of the corporation would be finalized from the year before and most snowbirds would still be able to attend. Every non profit I have been involved with, which is many, has had an actual day in their bylaws so that Members could anticipate and plan for the meetings. Example, the HOA had the second Tuesday in August. Same with United Way, adult literacy program. However I have no problem with Tom's motion to have it in March as long as the bylaws lawyer supports that.

 

That is probably needed for such instances like the Covid pandemic. However it can be a slippery slope to start down.

 

Janet, if you remember those bylaws were rejected in favor of the sloppy mess we had to deal with.

 

During COVID the large issue was masks, unfortunately a large group of people decided they were special and didn’t have to follow this requirement. Guess they slept through history in elementary school where you study the Black Death which wiped over half the population of Europe in less than two years. The predominant method of spreading the bacteria was through the air. There were two other methods but airborne was the most lethal. As for Covid, the stats for cases and mortality were greater during the winter months because people spent time together indoors. The most lethal time was during the Holidays because of family get togethers. That showed the importance of masks.

Happy to discuss the similarities and differences between these diseases any time.

 

And that may have been a good thing?

Results from a study, the “Foegen Effect”, strongly suggest that mask mandates actually caused about 1.5 times the number of deaths or ∼50% more deaths compared to no mask mandates.

Deep re-inhalation of hypercondensed droplets or pure virions caught in facemasks as droplets can worsen prognosis and might be linked to long-term effects of COVID-19 infection.

A rationale for the increased risk ratio by mandating masks is probably that virions that enter or those coughed out in droplets are retained in the facemask tissue, and after quick evaporation of the droplets, hypercondensed droplets or pure virions (virions not inside a droplet) are re-inhaled from a very short distance during inspiration. The virions spread (because of their smaller size) deeper into the respiratory tract. They bypass the bronchi and are inhaled deep into the alveoli, where they can cause pneumonia instead of bronchitis, which would be typical of a virus infection. Furthermore, these virions bypass the multilayer squamous epithelial wall that they cannot pass into in vitro and most likely cannot pass into in vivo. Therefore, the only probable way for the virions to enter the blood vessels is through the alveoli.

 

In looking at the Title 10 versus Title 33, one also needs to consider the complexity of trying to change.
First thing is this could change the registered status of the corporation. Within the scope of Title 10 are the components of a nonprofit corporation. Title 33 is about shared community operations. Two distinct elements within the Arizona Revised Statutes.
In desiring to become a shared community, the RCSC needs to be dissolved and the assets reallocated in accordance with dissolution of a corporation. Then the RCSC, or whatever the new entity would be called, would need to file the application with the ACC to operate within the state. New Articles of incorporation would need to be created as well as new bylaws. No, you can’t copy and paste as the corporate structure will have changed.
I also believe it may take legislative action to allow the RCSC to change to a Title 33, as the governing laws are as such that the statute is the legal framework for the business.
Now, the age overlay is a Federal mandate and would need to be applied for all over again. The 501c3 tax exemption would also need to be revised and redone. Think about how a tax exemption looks like to an investigator who finds a $20 million dollar theater in the works looks?
So, after the state allows for the dissolution of the corporation, all of the assets have been removed, what happens when you try to get everything back? What kind of a shell company can you build to handle all of the buildings, the golf courses, the maintenance sheds and equipment not to mention the laying off of the employees?
It’s not accomplished by making a motion at a board meeting. I wanted to offer a glimpse of what would be needed to change governance of Sun City to Title 33. There could be more, but I thought this was enough.
I forgot to mention the restructuring of the assessment system and how much the new assessments would be. The current structure is per person, so married couples would face a double the cost increase.

 

The bylaws revisions were rejected because one Director changed her vote on the second reading. Later the March Membership meeting was adopted by the Board.

Dave, I doubt that any of us need your history lesson. I chose to wear a mask and get vaccinated. Others chose otherwise. I just mentioned the Covid pandemic because the RCSC Membership meeting was either delayed or not held during the pandemic. John suggested the bylaws should include a procedure in case the meeting couldn't be held in March. No one, but you, wanted to get into a lecture or argument about wearing masks to prevent illness.

 

Sounds complicated to me. Did Sun City West have to go through all of that when they changed from a Title 10 to Title 33?

 

Sorry Janet, posted the reply on the wrong thread.
As I recall it was a vote by the residents of SCW. Flash forward all these years, and the legislation has changed to become far more difficult than it was previously. And as litigious as society is today, forget a minor step in the process and a real fiasco could ensue.

 

This seems to me to be something that needs expert advice.