"A Watershed Moment...Indeed."

Dave,

At some point one has to say some must make a very small sacrifice (one less row of bingo tables) so that all can benefit. Or is everyone entitled to everything they want?

John

 

Opinion Sun City PAC
RCSC Theater Proposal

I have heard many opinions on the Recreation Centers of Sun City (RCSC) proposed Performing Arts Center, in fact, too many to remember. Equally as numerous, is the amount of times I have changed my mind about it! So…after much thought and consideration, and admittedly sharing the many thoughts of others, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps the following alternative offers the best use of our Preservation and Improvement Funds (PIF) and our annually assessed dollars.

But first, consider this; we live in a land-locked community where there is no more room for growth, meaning the Community will always have a pretty much fixed population. With no growth there really isn’t any need to continue to build new buildings.

First of all, what are some of the concerns? A new building requires finding a location not only large enough for the building, but additional space required for parking. It also will increase our annual expenses, for such things as maintenance, staff, utilities, and insurance.

One of the most recent recommendations from the architect (or was it really by the Board?) was insane! It made no sense to me to tear-up a perfectly good, well utilized, as well as being an expensive to maintain amenity like the Lawn Bowling Courts at Lake View to not only build a new building, but also with the promise to replace the Lawn Bowling courts at a different location?!?!? Let’s just throw more good money on top of bad! We’ve already spent thousands of dollars on no less than three architectural firms to come up with a plan for Mountain View and the PAC, only to be not much farther into the process than we were years ago!

We have already increased the number of our Recreation Centers when we purchased and built the Grand Center and Vintage Vehicle Clubs building. Do we really need to continue to build new buildings? We already have our plate full with just keeping up with routine maintenance, the scheduled renovations of the existing Rec. Centers and proposed new golf maintenance buildings. So…here’s what has been suggested as an alternative that I’ve come to agree with.

Sun Dial! Why? The Sun Dial building checks several boxes that can’t be checked at any other location.

· First and foremost it fulfills the Board’s fiduciary responsibility for spending money wisely.

· Sun Dial is centrally located within Sun City

· No need to find a location

· No need to build a new building

· Basically already wired and technically set-up for performances

· Has the second floor control room to video record performance or show movies

· Has a kitchen, more on that later!

· Parking is not a problem.

· Several points for traffic ingress and egress

· Already has a Ticket Window

· The breezeway is the perfect place to congregate before a performance

· There is still room to extend the building if necessary for storage without infringing on parking

Many theaters now use projection to create backdrop images rather than building physical sets and props eliminating the need for a large storage area.

What would a theater at Sun Dial possibly look like? Consider this. The center portion, which is the Main Auditorium at Sun Dial, can primarily be used for the Players and other small venues. Retractable tiered theater type seating that will only extend from the back wall of the auditorium to about 1/3 or 1/2 the distance to the stage, the rest of the flat floor space can use multiple banks of theater type removable seating which will better accommodate those using walkers, wheelchairs and the handicapped.
Here’s the best part! Sun Dial does, after all, have the kitchen facilities that are used by many Clubs for their annual parties, etc. The flat floor space would allow for the occasional set-up of tables and chairs for a diner theater performance, and have a catering service come in to provide the cuisine!

During those twelve paid Winter Concert Series performances, when they open both wings for additional seating, they could continue to just set up the tables as they do now or perhaps partial smaller retractable tiered seating and/or more banks of removable theater seating. Same for Bingo! Close up the retractable seating unit, store it against the back wall, (only occupies 4'-6" of floor space) and set-up all the old folding chairs and tables as is typically done!

I suspect they could extend a back portion of the existing building without even infringing on the parking lot to store the additional seating. Strategically located access would allow the additional banks of seating to simply be rolled directly into the auditorium!

YES, I believe Sun Dial is the perfect location and will provide fiscal responsibility and more bang for the buck. And I think the whole transformation could be done for much less than 14 million dollars and we can get on with the renovation at Mountain View once and for all?

I believe the pros strongly outweigh the cons by a large margin. If anybody can come up with a good reason not to use Sun Dial I’d like to hear it…and don’t tell me it’s about damaging the floor! The floor can be protected!

Just doesn't seem to be fiscally responsible to spend multi million dollars on a facility when an existing facility can provide everything needed at much lower cost especially when the only real excuse is scheduling!

Use the PIF dollars allocated to build the PAC at MV to facilitate the upgrade at Sun Dial. That would certainly lower the cost to renovate MV at the projected 40 million dollars.

Plus, an upgrade at Sun Dial could give the Players their theater a lot sooner!

Just my opinion

Tom Marone

Sun City

 

We have discussed our thoughts ad nauseum on this project on this thread. In my heart of hearts, I believe the MV project would have been done long ago if not for the Player's Club refusing to practice their favorite hobby at Sun City's performing arts center, Sun Dial. I think this board and prior boards have done a disservice to the community by not facing the fact that we cannot afford to indulge the dreams of a small group of folks that love performing plays. I am grateful to have these folks as fellow members but must keep my perspective on how MY (AND YOUR) MONEY is being spent.

Everyone realizes the plays performed are not original works of the Players Club and are open to non-members on the same basis as they are to members. Why should I pay big bucks for nonmembers to attend rerun plays?

Every other performing arts group is satisfied with performing at Sun Dial and their rehearsal accommodations. In fact, the theater size contemplated at MV would not support the other groups performances. Why then is the Board not looking for ways to make Sun Dial work for the Players Club? Tom Morone has a perfectly sensible plan to modify Sun Dial to enhance the members' enjoyment of all performances.

If this theater is ever built, the rent RCSC should charge the Players Club will go up by at least ten times. Can this small club afford rent upwards of $300,000 per year? I am not willing to subsidize it.

The option approved by the Board could result in the largest special purpose theater of any 55+ community in Arizona at a time when new developers are not building special purpose theaters and major theaters are shutting down all over the place. And, IMHO, it is clearly a budget buster.

Look folks, I stood tall when others hid behind me. I will not now, nor will I ever be intimidated by bullies. It is our money, and we should insist on getting the best recreational experience for the hard-earned money we paid.

Best regards,

John

 

John,
Not to be a stick in the mud, but how do you propose we, the membership, take back or even claim ownership of the money being spent?
It’s already in the coffers of the corporation. Going to a once a month meeting and being allowed to speak for a few minutes is not going to be effectual.The board, and the various members control the outcome of expenditures. When it comes to having any sway or input has been removed from the conversation by the board.
And we are a Title 10 corporation, so there are limited protocols around the budget and how it’s managed. Short of storming the castle and removing certain directors, changing money management and expenditures are not going to happen, not in a way that involves members participation.
I truly feel your desire to infuse change, but I feel it is going to be a lone battle fought at the board level unless you form a constituency with a few more like minded individuals who also want to run for the board. I am not saying it’s impossible, but it could make your tenure on the board rather ugly. I would normally caution someone to pick your battles, but it appears everything is going to be a battle going forward. Just my opinion.

 

Carol,

The short answer is it takes a village! How did the softball club get their new clubhouse; they showed up in mass. How did the Golfers get the sand trap redesign in the budget, for now; they all showed up. How did the library closure fiasco get reversed; they all showed up. How did the PAC at Lakeview get squashed; they all showed up. The message we need to send loud and clear is the board needs to be accountable to the membership and not just some members.

I hope that helps.

John

 

So showing up en masse creates a different outcome? I find this tactic flawed, as when members are limited to speaking for 4 minutes a month, they are not allowed to speak for themselves or their cause. Why should it take assembling a mob be the only way to create change? Chaos is the answer? Strike fear in the board members? This has happened before and there were armed security and a brief meeting before the board members made a hasty retreat.
I don’t know what the rewrite of the bylaws looks like, weren’t they supposed to made available today? Did member benefits expand to allow for a greater level of involvement? Or is it going to take an insurrection to accomplish better member/board interaction? IMHO

 

It's actually only 3 minutes and Yes, I think an insurrection is probably the only way!

They won't listen to common sense and would rather spend several million dollars rather than to reschedule some Clubs to other facilities!

It's infuriating to me! It's my money!

 

Carol,

I don't think the library turn out or the annual membership meeting was a mob scene. If the Board does not want to reach out to the membership the membership must reach out to them.

John

 

John,

I never stated any of those events were mob scenes, I asked if it takes creating a mob scene to garner attention.
Clearly, the members were not the focus of attention at the annual meeting. The library issue created its own group action just by the nature of the cause.
The sad part is that the members, those that should be the audience that is paid attention to is primarily ignored. Here’s the really sad part: these people are nothing more than fellow members given a title and keys to the company. They are not any more important than you or I in the scheme of things. Yet, they seem to have forgotten that there are term limits and the title will disappear and then, once again, just another name on a placard hanging on a wall no one pays attention to.
So, this brings me to the point of where do the rest of us fit in. I don’t know at what point board members lose sight of the obligation to be answerable to their fellow members. I have not been privy to the changing of mentality from members matter to becoming omnipotent corporate talking heads. I understand the importance of running a financial empire, as an unpaid volunteer, and being tasked with keeping the lights on. What I don’t understand and can’t wrap my head around is the complete absence of consideration for the very people who live in this community just as they do. Numbers and financial statements are the rule of the day? I digress, as I know the burden placed upon the board members, especially this year, when there will probably be an increase in annual assessments, and they have to be the ones who announce it.
I will be accused of once again being too harsh on the people who comprise the board. I am sorry. My heart goes out to those in the hot seat. But, at what point can the membership expect to be considered a high priority and not an afterthought? Why should it take creating chaos to get attention? This scenario seems to be repeating itself and it shouldn’t be. As far as I know, Del Webb created Sun City for the benefit and enjoyment of the people who would purchase and reside here, these are the people who were the focus of this organization. When did those people, the buyers, get forgotten? When did the corporation become more important than the members who pay to support it?

 

Carol,
What you described is what I call the systemic flaw in RCSC governance. Members get elected to the Board and then realize there are no effective controls on their authority (as long as they get 5 people to agree with them) and no accountability for screwing up. They have often hidden behind the lawyer who tells them what they want to hear; they can't be sued unless they steal something or are grossly negligent and he will gladly represent them at hundreds of dollars an hour if they do get sued. So, in the words of one current board member, the board as a body can do whatever they want and is under no obligation to involve the membership in the decision-making process. Thus, the cycle repeats itself over and over again and the dollars at stake keep getting bigger.
Sadly, I am one who believes SC has so many potential advantages over other communities, but we just lack enlightened leadership.

John

 

Wasn’t October 1 the date for the release of the bylaws rewrites? And the adjudication results of the amendments submitted at the non-members meeting from March? You know, the ones that were pulled and members lost their rights to vote? Waiting to see what the results are on behalf of the membership. Or is everything going to be a surprise and you have to wait until the special meeting?
You have the information in your hands, release it so the members can review it? This reflects back to the annual members meeting that was subterfuged by the board at the behest of the attorney.
There’s no existing bylaw that states the board has the explicit right to deny access of member information from being disseminated. Just trying to stay correct on my part as to my requests. This is beyond the needs of the corporation. This was a date stated by the board as I recall, and it should be honored. IMHO

 

I was forwarded a copy of a transcript from board notes stating there was a hope the bylaws revisions would be completed by the working group by the October board meeting. Or the end of October.
There are special sessions scheduled to present them, with the adoption of the new bylaws happening at the October board meetings. So much for member input prior to them becoming the law of the land. It would appear that amending anything put forward by the board will stand, no matter what the outcome.
And the outcome of the pulled proposed amendments that were a safety measure for the corporation, what is the outcomes decided on that? 9’people can now decide what over 1700 members didn’t get access too? Can’t wait for the reading on this. The non-members meeting still has unfinished business. IMHO

 

I was told that the bylaws are currently with the lawyers for their review.

Based on previous decisions made by the lawyers....?

 

Member opportunities to speak to the proposed bylaws:

• Town Hall (Bylaws Presentation) - Monday, Oct 20, 2025, 10:00 am-1:30 pm at Sundial Auditorium

• Town Hall (Bylaws Presentation) - Wednesday, Oct 22, 2025, 5:00-9:00 pm at Sundial Auditorium

• Special Session (First Reading of Bylaws) - Wednesday, Oct 29, 2025, 6:00-9:00 pm at Sundial Auditorium

Support documents to review are usually online at least a week in advance. If you choose not to get the RCSC e-mail blast notification, you can visit the archive site daily or periodically to see what is being communicated:

https://us10.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=100083ab001c5179fefc4e0a7&id=81e1c172e3

 

If the theater becomes this overwhelming expenditure, then a push to build a small 200 max theater with groups having more performances and less amenities, or we continue the conversation to rebuild Sundial. We can't allow one club to dictate an entire community, unless the new building would be a multi use auditorium, which is what Palm Ridge is in SCW. Also The Grand went that route in the mid 1990s when they built SC Grand. We absolutely would have to have a building for multiple uses otherwise we are throwing l our money away.

 

I would still strongly suggest that they use Sun Dial because they could upgrade Sun Dial for probably half the cost it would take to build a new theater from ground up at MV, and give the Player's their theater probably 3 years sooner!

Any additional added space or building required for storage at Sun Dial for theater props, equipment, etc.., does not require additional parking spaces (according to Maricopa County) as long as the space is considered not inhabitable.

Now...they keep on complaining that the auditorium at Sun Dial is to heavily used. So I say, build just a "simple" building down at MV that would partially be used to upgrade the fitness center, then leave the rest of the square footage as a flat floor open space.

They have already approved 1.5 million PIF dollars for an indoor, air-conditioned dog training area, so use that money to supplement the construction at MV, and the open space at the new "simple" building can be used for the dog training in the Summer months, it could also be used to move some of the activities currently using Sun Dial, and it could possibly be used to set-up a couple of temporary indoor pickleball courts with removable nets, etc.

I believe this concept would save a lot of money.

Just my (common sense) opinion!

 

I want to apologize for being so caustic in my comments about the board and the members. I knew when I wrote what I did, it was overly critical of 9 volunteers who are showing up to work. Doesn’t mean I agree with their actions, but they deserve accolades for being present. So, my apologies to those who show up and do their best, thank you.

 

I like Tom's idea because it provides greater use for each facility. Dances in particular could be held in a large multipurpose auditorium at Mountainview and free up time at Sundial. Moreover, the parking at Sun Dial is much more accessible for our residents with mobility concerns. Makes too much sense for many.

 

John,
Sorry about the sarcasm but I came from a career where it was an everyday occurrence when submissions made for bonding were a joke. Further, if you have worked with attorneys down in the trenches of both criminal (just a bit for me) and many areas of civil law and that included maritime law, sarcasm was part and parcel of what was happening.

That said, I had the degree of slope, number of chairs per row and numbers of rows for 400 people. Now seeing talk of 600 seats in a one story building we are back to degree of slope (even with pull out seating) number of seats per row and number of rows. You have already admitted that bingo would have to give one row of their tables to accommodate your plan. Politely the blowback on that idea from the Men’s club and bingo players is going to be monumental.

My opinion is still that this PAC is a white elephant and a waste of money. It’s just a big shiny Christmas gift to the Players who feel entitled $20M+ and their pitch it can we used for other performances rates from humorous to down right absurd, such as rainout our heat out at the Sun Bowl wherein 4000 people will be playing a weird musical chairs for either 400 or 600 seats. Tell me that this is not an accurate statement.


Peace brother and talk/type to you in the future.

Roger Tawney

 

John, I just returned from a camping trip to NE Az with no internet nor cell service. Loved it and made listening to the wind much easier. Consequently I could no read the posts made while I was gone.