Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jun 8, 2022.
Duh is right. Anyone know where the Golf Committee is coming down on this?
I heard they were recommending a $500 a year increase, no golf car included. No motion, just their recommendation. Which is really interesting because the latest "rumor" is after the fiasco at the last board meeting is they want all motions to come from committees, not board members. Explain the logic of that gem?
Thanks, Bill. Logic? Hmmmm....
That's so the Chair can simply thank the committee for the report and place it on file without taking any action, unless of course, a motion was actually made! But don't forget who typically would make that motion! It would be the Chair or Co-Chair of the committee who are members of the board and we all know most motions have already been decided on before the meeting even takes place!
I found it interesting that at the last board meeting when John N. wanted to make a motion on behalf of Steve Collins, who was absent, the Chair allowed Sue to withdraw the motion because she was the Chair of that committee? The mistake John made was that he allowed it to happen. He should have and could have made the motion on his own behalf.
Perhaps that's another reason for that rumor. Dale allowed the committee chair to withdraw a motion so now she has to continue to allow that action?
There is no rhyme or reason why things happen at a board meeting. We have all seen the rules changed to suit the situation.
So.....just so we all understand why Bill keeps reminding us that golf was suppose to be self-sustaining:
In the Agreement way back in September of 1975, when the Trustee (Arizona Title Insurance and Trust Company) conveyed all the properties consisting of 7 golf courses, Viewpoint Lake and the Recreation Centers to the RCSC Corp. for $10.00, that Agreement stated, "...It is the intent of the Trustee that the golf courses will be managed in such a way as to match the income derived with the expenses incurred in the operation of the golf courses, thereby making the entire operation attain a break-even point..."
We all understand that golf is, or was the big attraction that brought people to Sun City. Not sure if the attraction is still as great as it once was, in fact, I kinda doubt it!
So...I guess the question is, "How should we feel about that $36.36?"
I guess if you play golf you don't give it a second thought, but if you don't play golf how should you feel about subsidizing it? You could either be pissed-off that you're paying for something that you will never use or you can justify it by realizing that your annual assessment is also subsidizing every other amenity provided by the RCSC that you may not use!?!?!
Bill never said he was against subsiding golf and I don't believe he has an objection to it. His main concern is the fact it has been subsidized to the tune of 50 million dollars over the last twenty years and we (Members) never knew about it!
With the advent of the upcoming water restrictions and the mandatory obligations to convert green-space with desert-landscape at a cost of ten's of thousands of dollars for each golf course, one has to wonder how much will that $36.36 increase?
It appears no one cares how much golf costs us. There is the odd perception that half of Sun City residents are golfers. They're not and never have been. When Sun City opened DEVCO projected around 15% of the seniors buying here would play the game. Golf course lots were popular, and often non golfers bought them simply because of the green space out their back window. That's still the case, at least regarding green space. Best guess is 12%, but just to error on the safe side let's say 15% play golf, 85% don't.
FYI is right, i haven't argued against subsidizing golf. It's an important amenity and the courses need to be kept up. Which is where this gets so convoluted. The RCSC doesn't publish PIF expenditures. We know they started collecting it in 1999, best guess to date on collections is somewhere the upside of 100 million dollars. We know they shoved golf maintenance buildings into the facilities side of the ledger rather than on the golf side. Not sure how other things were handled, they just don't show it.
My best guess is we are hovering around 50 million dollars from PIf over the past 21 years. No argument, other than they don't show us. The second piece of the finances comes in the yearly budgets. The agreement said golf would be revenue neutral and everyone that lived here understood that. Hell, last year several board members admitted knowing it was supposed to be and the also said it never quite made.
Now that the federal form 990's are posted online, we know how much the RCSC subsidized golf. My argument was the membership should have had the right to vote on that. Now the RCSC argues it was never intended to be self-sustaining. As well they should because we now know in the last 15 years they've spent some 25 million dollars to keep golf affordable.
Let me shock you all, i don't care. It's yesterday's news. What i care about going forward is we get our heads around how much it is costing us. After watching yesterday's presentation it;s clear to me the board doesn't care one whit. Doesn't matter if tee times are given out to non-members ahead of members, doesn't matter is golf loses a boatload of money; apparently all we care about is whether we can keep rounds of play in the 350,000 range.
I'll come back and finish my thoughts.
After yesterday's meeting, i was stunned. The board was fine with EVERY HOME OWNER IN SUN CITY SUBSIDIZING NON-MEMBERS TO PLAY OUR COURSES. WORSE YET, THEY WERE FINE WITH NON-MEMBERS TAKING TEE TIMES FROM MEMBERS. Do me a favor, let that sink in. To be even more blunt, i defy any board member or RCSC employee to jump here and show me i am wrong. Please, take me up on this challenge. Send your best, your brightest. Please.
So you understand my frustration. We bought our first home in 1999. The good news was our PIF was only $750. We bought our second home around 2017 and when we bought it the PIF was either $3000 or $3500. We didn't sell our first home until well after the year allowed and so we paid the PIF again. Nope, not complaining, we knew and understood that was the case. What does piss me off is the PIF we paid on the second house was in part used to remodel golf courses that non-residents are playing on for less than i can step on and play for. Don't tell me about the passes i can buy. The RCSC lets non-members who have never contributed 5 cents towards our PIF golf for $20.18 a round while if i want to golf on a Sunday in March it costs me $34.00.
Let's be even more clear, those same non-member full play cards they are actively still selling in record numbers (that's not hyperbole, it's true) are paying less for a round of golf than it costs to maintain our golf courses. We know in 2019 the expense side of golf was 8 million dollars. We know the last two years they played 350,000 rounds. To break even, every round of golf should theoretically cost $23. That would get them to the 8 million dollar break even point. It's a silly number because there are so many gimmicks, cards and special deals it is impossible to find the exact number, but for purposes of this discussion, $23 is as pure as anything they could show you.
Now consider this, every time a Sun City resident plays a round of golf at the full rate $34 or $24 (summer rate), they are also subsidizing that non-member full play card with the rate they are paying. That means that every household in Sun City pays $36.36 each year for a non-resident, but every time they golf at the full rate they are subsidizing them even more. Does that make any sense?
Here, let me make their argument for them. We need that money from outside play or the members golfers costs will go up, or, hold on tight, they'll have to raise our annual lot assessment to cover it (don't believe me, watch the video). They want it so badly, the 85% of us that don't golf should help pay for the non-members round of golf. This is what happens when no one pays attention to what is going on. This is what happens when no one is held accountable.
It's just wrong on so many levels, but if you watch the video from yesterday, all is right with the world. They are going to do nothing until at least next year. Freaking shameful.
Watch Video Here: RCSC Member/Board Exchange Meeting - Monday, June 13, 2022.
Tap “Watch on YouTube “
Let me help you get your head around it this way; how would you feel if you wanted to go to one of the amazing concerts they put on at the Sun Dial auditorium in the winter/spring, but couldn't get in. The ones where you buy tickets to but in this case someone decided that outsiders could buy those same tickets but for less money than you did? You simply couldn't come. Or perhaps more on point, they told you the evening program was sold out but the afternoon performance was available.
Let's get even more bizarre; how about Sun Bowl shows, let's start selling tickets to outsiders who could then bump you from attending because they were given special access via the website. Those shows are free to members but think of the potential for revenue by pre-selling access to those shows in that incredible venue on gorgeous Sunday evenings. Then to cap it all off, the argument would be that they may someday buy a home here, or better yet, that revenue from ticket sales will insure we don't have to raise your annual assessments.
Now with these 110 plus degree days, i suspect there are outsiders living around us who love access to our pools. How about if we start selling them passes and we charge them $20 a day. Stay with me here, it gets better. We also include an option for an unlimited access pass for $100 month. Imagine the sales we could have in June, July and August. Make it even more attractive, let them go on our web site and book a lawn chair on the sun deck to insure they can get in.
The possibilities are endless. If all that matters is revenue, we have the potential to make millions, and no one even has to buy into the community for access. While the absurdity is off the charts, what they are doing in golf is exactly that. The reason Webb built golf courses was to sell homes. The companies goal was never to own them or run them. It was always intended they be turned over to the community to own and run.
The reason it took so long for the RCSC to take the golf courses was because they feared they would become a money pit. They were right. They are, and they have. The RCSC is in a butt ugly position. They know full well the covid bump will flame out in the next couple of years, golf numbers will start dropping again and they will be forced to make tough decisions. They found the bandaid, but it at best is a fallacy. Selling under-priced rounds of golf is a losing proposition. The fix is to sell them to outsiders and next year they will do virtually nothing to fix or stop it. The $250 increase they are proposing won't stop it from being the best bargain in town, it will only force those who do buy it to play more.
Now we know there are 1610 residents buying full play passes. We know there are another 136 outsiders buying them. We know the average cost for an insider is $12.37 and for an outsider is $20.18. We know the composite rate for the two is $17 and change. As the board president likes to say, data matters. What they never want to talk about is the expense side. We know in 2019 the RCSC's costs were a dab over 8 million dollars, does anyone think they went down? Golf course expenses, like everything else will continue to rise with water leading the way. The heavy play will also take its toll.
There-in is the problem, when you sell golf rates for less money than it costs to run them, the money has to come from somewhere. The answer, after the meeting the other day is clear, from each and every one of us who don't golf. Worse yet, even more so from those that do on a sporadic basis. Think about it this way, all of the latest price increases in golf have been directed at those who are already paying more than their share. Those paying the least haven't seen in increase in a very long time. Explain the logic of that to me; please.
Does it matter? The board will make its own recommendation and the GM will do what he wants.
There-in is the problem for me Larry. Sun City was built by DEVCO, but they understood it would ultimately be run by the community, for the community. We've lost much of that mindset over the years. I heard the golf advisory committee recommended a $500 increase and no golf car included. That would have kept the price at $2500 a year but at least the more you played, you had to pay for a car rental rather than getting it included. Obviously the recommendation of the committee didn't matter.
Hence your point was spot on, other than i suspect the board had little or no input and the gm and director of golf just told them what they wanted.
Separate names with a comma.