If nothing else, Director Collin's motion pushed the RCSC management team to act on their potential fix they were wanting to implement next January, 6 months earlier than planned (watch the golf presentation from May). A poster on the SCA Facebook page said the increase was on their website. Indeed it was. I guess we should all be ecstatic they've fixed the problem...right? Let me give you a worthless analogy, but it will help you get the picture. Let's say your favorite "all you can eat" buffet raises the price by $2; what's a normal reaction? Eat more? And let's say you could buy a pass that allows you to go as often as you want for one flat rate price...do you go less? I know, silly; kind of like the resolution the RCSC management team and the board gave us just this past month. It doesn't fix anything. Hell, it may may it worse. For those of you clueless about what i am talking about, the RCSC has been selling record numbers of non-resident full play golf passes the last three years. Back in 2018, it wasn't an issue, there just weren't enough of them being sold to matter. Golf numbers were dropping and they wanted to tap into those living outside the walls to help cover exploding costs and keep the community from having to subsidize the game beyond the already 2 million dollar per year price tag (they never bothered to mention to anyone). When the pandemic hit and golf became the only game in town, golf realized a sudden growth spurt (that's a good thing). The problem was, some of that growth was from outsiders who found golf to be cheaper at Sun City courses than most others around the area. So i am clear, we're not talking about tee times that aren't filled, because those spots are most often taken by those coming into Sun City and paying the visitor rate that is $2 higher than a member, is renting a golf car for the $12 and is clearly helping cover the actual cost to run our golf courses. The problem came when the non-member pricing was realized to be the golfing bargain of a lifetime. The old price was $2000 (no golf car), $2500 (with golf car). This provided unlimited play, but more importantly access to booking tee times through our web portal as if you were an RCSC member. It also guaranteed a golf car (at the $2500 price tag). It also allowed these outsiders to be considered insiders for purposes of small group bookings. Which meant for a $2 or $3 fee you could bypass the lottery. Invaluable during prime tee times (Nov- April). All of this caused an uproar in the golfing community. In 2018 there were roughly 50 of these passes sold. They've blown past the 150 mark and that has caused a squeeze on available tee times. Imagine again that all you can eat buffet where you want to bring your family to and pay full price but those with passes guaranteeing them a seat in the restaurant and you can't get in. Anyway, all of that aside, the RCSC management team's solution was a $250 increase in the cost of the full play pass to non-residents. They still keep all of the same access, the guarantee of having golf car and still claiming tee times ahead of the members. Ask yourself this: Did it fix anything? A couple more dollars, perhaps, but the problem of course is the basic flaw in the discussion from the very outset. The golf courses were never theirs (managements) to give away to those not living in Sun City, they belong to each and everyone of us living here and paying for them. This is long enough but i needed to set it up, stay tuned.
Let me do a really quick down and dirty that many people either don't know, or perhaps simply don't care about. From a historical perspective Sun City (DEVCO) went though some very interesting times with the IRS. At one point, very early on, the Feds wanted Sun City to pay taxes as if it was a private country club. The tax rate the IRS wanted them to pay would have choked Sun City out of business. The resolution came in part because of the way our Articles of Incorporation were written. Most people fail to understand the unique way Sun City was constructed. As the first of its kind, it paved the way for a thousands others like us. This clause was the defining difference: "To do anything and everything lawfully necessary in the interest of the Members of the Corporation, including, without limitation, the following." We were established as a community and not a business. The sole purpose of the organization was to provide for the membership. It's one of the reasons over the years the RCSC, the membership and the board were so exact in not allowing outsiders access except in very minimal cases. So much so there are actual, limits allowable under the IRS. Exceeding them jeopardizes our tax status. Think not? You only have to look at what Sun City West did two years ago. The new general manager looked at how things had evolved over time and righted the course. Let me be clear; i am not saying the non-member full play pass will cause us to lose our tax status. I am saying the very essence of how and why Sun City was built and successful is predicated on a community created for the membership. Allowing outsiders in and accessing our amenities for less than what members pay has never, NEVER, been of interest by or from the members. In my humble opinion, it never should be. This proposed fix, won't do a damned thing because they (management) full well knows the sale of those non-member full play passes is tied directly to their ability to book prime time tee times. I cannot be more clear when i say this: Those tee times belong to the membership, not somebody living outside our walls.
I'm in the mood today, so hang with me as i anger some of you. I've been accused of being a touch uncouth from time to time, so once again let me step over the line ( i know, click bit to keep you reading; my apologies). Not really. Any of you remember the old line parents used to tell their daughters about having sex before getting married? Come on, because when i saw ow the management team solved our problem with an increase on non-member rates, it was the first thought that jumped to mind. Nope, not kidding, here it is: "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" Before anyone jumps down my throat about anyone calling anyone a cow, not the case. It's just a saying. Here's why it is relative: When a golfer buys a Sun City home and then buys a full play pass for $1550 dollars, there's actually more to it than the cost of the pass. We know he/she is also paying their annual lot assessment at $496. We also know when they initially buy their home, they pay the $4000. I'm not going to waste my time breaking it down in half (assuming it is a couple). Let's just use a single person. That $4000 over a ten year period is $400 a year. Add on the $496 and you come up with $996 per year. Add on the cost of the pass, $1550 and and you fall into the $2500 range. Let's also assume they own their own golf car. If they buy a new one, 10k plus; a 20 year old used one, 3k . With insurance, gas and plates, we are talking an annual additional amount. Nope, not going to calculate it for you, let's just say there's an added cost to the $2500 plus. Then let's take that guy who is retired, lives just outside our walls and buys a full play pass, His house is paid for, has no interest in living with a bunch of old farts, or picking up and moving. However, golf is his passion. He can join a private country club or can go pay, during prime time (Nov-April) anywhere between $50 to $100 for a round of golf. Fortunately he has some really good friends who live in Sun City he used to golf with. They invite him to play with them 3 times a week. He buys the full play pass, they form a small group of 30 who pre-book tee times and by-pass the lottery completely. Let's say he buys the the new pass at $2750 (with golf car). That 3 time weekly golf outing is equivalent to 156 rounds a year. That's unrealistic to assume he plays 3 times every week, let's say he only gets in 120 rounds. He also has a neighbor who joins the group, but he buys the $2250 pass (no car). They've figured out, they can split the additional $500 for a golf car which is guaranteed and now that golf car rental comes in at $4,17 per round, but then you divide that by the two riders and it comes out to just over $2 each per round. The 120 rounds divided by the base $2250 just under $19.00 a round plus the $2 per round golf car add on and you are at $21 and change. Then factor in the $2 or $3 for the small group pre-booking fee and you are $23 or 24 per round. I'm not going to even try and summarize any of this, because the point i am making is really quite simple. If you do the math you will see the cost to live and play golf in Sun City may even be higher for the members of the RCSC than some man or woman living in Peoria. And to be clear, way less than playing anywhere else in the West Valley. It is the bargain of a golfing lifetime. Hence, my old adage: Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
Okay, I've been one of those reading all the posts but just too frustrated to do any posting. Lots of things going on in our life right now that take precedent. I hope we get some resolved in the coming months. So, just a few things to throw out there. It's not just the retired non-resident folk that can take advantage of the full play golf passes. Any 45+ year old can buy these non-resident bargain passes. Why 45?? To bowl at one of our centers a non-cardholder person has to be 55+(unless they are also a current league bowler) to open bowl and then just pays a small amount over the resident per game cost. Looks like non-resident golfers can sign in guests and they can golf as often as they want. I was under the impression that members are limited as to how many times they can sign in guests if they live locally(even with punch cards)for facilities i.e. billiards, darts, pickle ball etc. Am I mistaken? If not, shouldn't there be some restriction on how many time non-cardholders can include all their guests to play our courses?
RCSC Golf Fees Scroll down to see all types, including non-resident bargains. https://suncityaz.org/golf-courses-pro-shops/green-fees-annual-golf-passes/
Thanks eyesopen for the link; it's a little like asking what the bible says...which version? One number to focus on Peg would be what we all know as the high season; basically the winter months when our winter residents are living here. That's when the prime tee times become the hot button issue. To be even more precise during that time period, the resident rate is $35 while the guest is $44 and the public/non-guest is $46. Those aren't the rates in question. The real issue here are the gimmicks the RCSC has in play to increase the numbers of rounds played. They sell member's a full play pass for $1550. They sell an $800 surcharge pass where members pay $7 in the winter and $5 in the summer each time they play. The issue that has golfers angered are the full play non-resident passes they are selling for $2750 and $2250, the cheaper one doesn't include a golf car. The bigger problem is those full play non-resident passes are able to sign up early like they are living here. And in the cases of being in small groups can buy their tee times and bump members.
I wasn't imagining it. I found the exception in the Corporate Bylaws that spells out how "special" golf is when it comes to who/how often non RCSC Members are allowed to bring in guests and other outside friends to join them on our courses. I have heard complaints from Member billiard players that want to play with friends on a weekly basis by buying a punch card but it isn't allowed. Here goes: Neither spouses nor any Sun City, Arizona resident, whether considered seasonal (30 days or longer) or permanent, can be considered guests. Guests who live within seventy-five (75) miles of Sun City, Arizona are limited to fourteen (14) guest visits per year to RCSC Facilities other than RCSC’s golf or bowling facilities which have their own respective guest rates and policies.
Hey aggie, long time no hear or see. Miss you girl. Good points made, and the whole 10 pin bowling deal is another in the question (i know, not your main point and i will get to that). When they did the golf presentation in May (i think), they also did the bowling as well. I was stunned to see the non-member line rate in bowling was so cheap. Seems to me like it was only 30 cents more per game (than residents). When they compared rates at bowling alleys around the west valley, we were way cheaper than everyone else. So you know, according to the 990's, bowling has been losing money as well (nowhere near as much as golf). Nope, not getting excited by it, people just need to know. At the very least they should raise the rates for outside bowling. To your bigger point, i actually started reading the bylaws and board policies about guests, and visitors and even more bizarre, spouses who are not listed on a deed and aren't a RCSC member without buying a privilege care. That's always been an irritant of mine, members who own multiple homes, remarry and then live in a home in only one of their names. The whole rules about how many times they can visit amenities is really convoluted...except when it comes to golf, then all bets are off. Not to get your blood pressure up here aggie, but are you following the new high end units Royal Oak is building. I know this is a pet peeve of yours. I asked the general manager if the RCSC was charging Royal Oak the $5000 builder buy-in fee to access our amenity package and he didn't answer the question. With 156 apartments, that comes to 3 quarters of a million dollars. We know because the "buyers" don't own them, they won't pay the PIF. For those who don't know, Royal Oak has a buy-in package not tied to ownership. Royal Oak does pay half the fee per unit (not sure on how many of the doors they pay on though). Then if the buyer wants to pay the other half they get a privilege card(s). The deals created on all of the continuing care arrangements around the community vary. While on the board i questioned them, but was never shown them. Same old same old. It is troubling with the new development because with that number of units, i suspect most will be to couples. With potentially 300 new younger residents, some will be golfers and some will buy the full play passes and clog up our courses even more...the question is simple...are they doing it without the access fee?
BP said: "Royal Oak does pay half the fee per unit (not sure on how many of the doors they pay on though). Then if the buyer wants to pay the other half they get a privilege card(s)." Yes, you do know how to raise my blood pressure. My point is why would the residents of Royal Oaks or other continuing care facilities buy a privilege card when they have access to our facilities for golf and bowling? Some of these long term living centers have extensive exercise and club amenities. These non-member residents also can come toRCSC events as a guest from a RCSC member. I hope someone is able to pin down just how many privilege cards are purchased through these continuing care facilities and if Royal Oaks truly pays something per unit for all this new construction. It's bad enough that Sun City property owners foot the bill for their property taxes.
I defy anyone to go to the RCSC financials and find any breakout, breakdown of of the various continuum of care facilities. You can't. In fact, i would be willing to wager there's not a board member who could tell you much of anything about how it works. The minute the general manager told me the RCSC was getting "80 k in free money" from Royal Oak a year, i just cringed. I'm not going to blame him (or anyone for that matter) for deals done years ago. Where i take exception is in what has happened over the past several years as Royal Oak has bought up acres of Sun City property and added to their campus. Are they paying their fair share? Or is the arrangement they have so sweet the incentive to keep enjoying the benefit of a poorly negotiated deal encouraging them to buy more? Who knows...which is even more troubling. In the early 80's a university from the south sent a team here to do an evaluation on Sun City. The results are floating about and they were/are intriguing. The massive report written fills a three ring binder. The summary of the community was it was near on perfect. One problem, the options of continuing care were woefully inadequate. Like always, where there's a deficiency, solutions are found. My best guess is, most of you would be surprised by the number of options that exist for those who want to sell their homes, but remain in Sun City. None of them as successful as Royal Oak. Makes sense they are religious based, because the saying goes; "they have more money than God."
I'm hoping this will be my last post on this issue, but it is important. Have you been to the Royal Oaks website recently? Take some time to really explore it. The costs are staggering but that's only part of it. They actually brag about being a 501(c3) religious organization which means they have no taxes. They also extensively use the RCSC website to brag about all the amenities that their residents have access to when they live in one of their units. They make living in Sun City and the access to RCSC facilities seem one and the same. There is no mention of the need to purchase a privilege card to use the RCSC facilities. Over and out.....
