18th...REALLY?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    For years now I have been touting the brilliance of the website 55Places. They were way ahead of their time when they began showcasing age restricted communities and allowing potential buyers an option to see them from a distance, yet still get a feel for what they have to offer (at least on paper).

    Bill, Dan and their staff do a great job. They visit communities on a regular basis, in an effort to see them up close and personal. That said, doing brief walk-throughs is wholly different than living in them and getting to know what a community is really like.

    The challenge is that since the beginning of time (January 1, 1960 when the original Sun City opened), there's been a stigma, a perception that these types of communities are a place where old people go to die. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    John Meeker (Del Webb's VP of operations in Sun City 1965-1978) understood that and why he introduced the Stay and Play packages; he realized once people actually immersed themselves in the lifestyle they would often fall in love and buy. To this day, new developments still use that strategy because it works.

    The one over-riding theme I've found from these types of communities is residents almost always think theirs is the best. It's why I seldom try and label one better than the other. It's a losing battle to make the argument, because it is more an emotional argument rather than one steeped in logic.

    I will take the opportunity in coming posts to logically address some of what I know about the list posted below, but for now, here is the top 20:
    1. The Villages – The Villages, FL
    2. Sun City Hilton Head – Bluffton, SC
    3. On Top of the World – Ocala, FL
    4. Sun City Summerlin – Las Vegas, NV
    5. Solivita – Kissimmee, FL
    6. Sun City Carolina Lakes – Fort Mill, SC
    7. Sun City Huntley – Huntley, IL
    8. Sun City Anthem – Henderson, NV
    9. Sun City Texas – Georgetown, TX
    10. Stone Creek – Ocala, FL
    11. Sun City Grand – Surprise, AZ
    12. Carolina Preserve – Cary, NC
    13. Laguna Woods Village – Laguna Woods, CA
    14. Sun City Center – Sun City Center, FL
    15. Sun City West – Sun City West, AZ
    16. Kings Point – Sun City Center, FL
    17. Lake Providence – Mt. Juliet, TN
    18. Sun City – Sun City, AZ
    19. Del Webb Ponte Vedra – Ponte Vedra, FL
    20. Del Webb Naples – Ave Maria FL

    You can access the full list and an explanation on how they arrived at it here, as well a quick summary of the top 5.

    More to come, is should be fun.
     
  2. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    So, let me continue with this exercise: Seems only fair to start with number one on the list. The Villages of Florida is easily the most recognizable name in age restricted living these days. They spend a fortune on marketing (yup, still in development after 50 years) and spread over 33 acres and 3 counties.

    Again I would never tell people it isn't a great place to live. I've never been there but from all of the promotion they do, it clearly is a cut above. The problem for me is what is never said. The owner (Gary Morse who recently died) was most of the genius behind the community.

    Rather than posting my thoughts on his actions, I will provide a couple of paragraphs from articles about him:

    1).Morse owns the local newspaper, a television channel and an AM radio station. His realty company controls 60 percent of the re-sale market in the Villages, whose commercials have been fixtures on the Golf Channel. His bank lends to retirees fleeing south; his insurance company provides them coverage. He even gets paid to pick up the trash and organize tee times. For all his ubiquity, most outside of Florida have never heard of him.

    2). In 2011, the Holding Company of the Villages Ltd., which is owned by Morse and his family, generated at least $550 million in revenue, according to regulatory filings. Based on the value of his various businesses and real estate -- plus the almost $1 billion in estimated profits the closely held company has earned over 29 years -- Morse and his family are worth more than $2.5 billion, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. He has never appeared on an international rich list, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its July issue.

    3). But he’s unlikely to need much help opening doors on Capitol Hill, at least on the Republican side. Contributions from Morse and his family, his companies and their employees to federal GOP candidates and committees over the past several election cycles have been prolific. Morse and his wife have given $2.2 million since 1999, according to OpenSecrets.org research. And his children and their spouses have given another $2.1 million. Employees of the Villages and related companies? Add another $2.7 million.

    There's volumes more, but I suspect you get the point. Morse used the bonds to develop the Villages. He controlled much of the community by enveloping it with his own media saturation and then better yet paid millions to republicans who are all about "free enterprise." There was nothing free about this game. The IRS is looking closely at their actions; but what the heck, with the right grease, almost anything is possible to skate free on.

    Compare that to the original Sun City where DEVCO picked up the tab on everything: Streets, sewer, water, you name it, Webb paid for it. And when is was all said and done he gave it away to either the community or the county. Staggering differences in how each community was built and why it was successful.

    Don't get me wrong, politics exists in Sun City. We have both a republican club and a democrat club. People as they age tend to become more right leaning, but in the end, we all work together to make Sun City a great place to live. Given the two articles I have quoted from (and there's dozens more) the very thought of living in the Villages would make my skin crawl. I wanted to be in a community where ownership meant taking responsibility for it's success. Not one where the owner/developer bent the rules to make billions and then throw millions at politicians to bail him and the family out.

    It's the dark side of the Villages and always gets a pass from these kinds of lists. Wonder why?

    Here is the link for # 1 and 2 above and here is the link for #3. If you have any interest, take a quick peak, it is quite the story when you compare it to what Del Webb accomplished on his own.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I'll focus on another that surprised me in placing higher than Sun City. I've not been there but I have some knowledge due to the history of our community. And again, let me say this is not in any way disparaging them as a retirement destination.

    Sun City Center Florida was number 14. I've not been there but have met a group of folks who live there. Three years back we were the kickoff point for a several Sun City Center residents who were doing a cross country bike trek from here to there. Called Sammy Rides, it was a fund raiser for child cancer in memory of one of the groups grand daughters who had died.

    I took them through the Del Webb museum and showed them where it all began. Sun City Center was originally Del Webb Sun City Florida and in fact the Webb Corporation replicated Sun City and virtually dropped it in Florida (up to and including street names and the Rec Center name). It opened in 1961/1962 and along with Sun City CA they used a joint national advertising campaign to promote all three communities.

    Both California and Florida failed miserably. Throw into the mix, our own Sun City AZ was on the ropes in 1964 and age-restricted communities were in jeopardy. Had it not been for John Meeker coming to the original Sun City and retooling the game plan, who knows, we may well not be where we are today with senior only living.

    But I digress, this is one of the reasons I was surprised to see Sun City FL place so highly on the list. When I showed folks around, they were stunned at how we had evolved. Of course we had the advantage of spectacular growth from 1968 through 1978 (averaging 2000 home sales per year). And with 27,000+ rooftops and 6 to 7 million dollars a year in preservation fees (point of sale revenue), we have been reinvesting in our community with massive dollar infusions.

    In fact, I was given a cost analysis and is at the Museum done in the early 1990's. The Sun City resident was a claims adjuster specializing in communities and after careful review of all of our amenities he calculated our net value to be well in excess of 100 million dollars. In the past 15 years (since the creation of PIF) we have invested almost a like amount in rebuilding, updating and remodeling.

    Simply put, i'd be surprised if Sun City Florida came close to those kinds of figures (and in fact know they haven't). And while this isn't empirical proof we are "better," it certainly on a logical level tells me something that would give rise to questioning exactly how or why they placed higher on the list.

    Say tuned, more to come.
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I've been told brevity is not my strong suit E, so I understand having to come back and read it. People have argued when I write too much I lose them. The funny thing is I write as much for me as I do for others. I find myself processing the things I write to help me think through issues, agendas and goals. Perhaps a bit selfish, but a great way to keep from getting stuck in the status quo.

    Let's move on to number #4 on the list, Sun City Summerlin. We visited it in 1999 and it was absolutely beautiful. The model homes (as are all Webb Sun City properties in development) took one's breath away. Of course the problem is you look at the base price of the homes and they seem almost within reach. Then you tour the models and there can be as much as $100,000 in upgrades.

    But the real issue here was cost. Sun City Summerlin was off the charts higher than Sun City, Sun City West and Sun City Grand (all of which we looked at). And of course it was still being subsidized by the Webb Corporation. The rec fees were three times what Sun City was, the properties to buy were twice as high and then there was the bigger issue...living in Las Vegas.

    While it's called Summerlin, it's a mere 10 to 15 minutes from either the Vegas strip or downtown. And if you don't like the long commute, it's 5 minute's to the Red Rock or Sun Coast casino's. Point being all too many retirees move to Vegas and find themselves becoming casino junkies. They end up going bust or going back to work.

    At one point our goal was to move to Vegas. Once we saw how expensive Florida was, we looked to Vegas as a second choice. We went a lot and while we weren't degenerate gamblers (maybe close), we did enjoy the escape from the daily grind. I love to hear people claim they move there for the buffets and the shows...it's akin to the argument they buy Playboy for the articles.

    All in all, coming in at number 4 is quite an honor. The real question is, how much value is there in a community that is far more expensive and with far less amenities. Add in the whole Vegas experience of traffic, smog and gamblers anonymous flourishing and it wasn't for us. Especially when compared to what we got here in Sun City. Besides, we can be at our favorite casino in 4 and a half hours, even with a pit stop or two along the way.
     
  5. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    OMG E; those links are quite the read. It's interesting because in 1999 we had seriously considered Sun City West but there was an ongoing controversy by a group called something like Sun City West Citizens for Open Government. It filled the papers on a daily basis with strife and caused us to quickly abandon ant thoughts of moving there. I'll come back to that at a later post.

    Great summation on the list btw.
     
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Continuing on here, Sun City West came in at an impressive number 15. The fact they scored highly doesn't surprise me, it is a great community. I get over there often and there's lots of good reasons to buy into it. The homes are newer and the golf courses better than ours (from a more challenging standpoint).

    That said, there are issues that would drive me wild. I truly dislike the ingress, egress. The limited number of centers means traveling more than we do in Sun City. The streets are narrower, which makes it more difficult for golf cars. But the biggest thing is their financial positioning. When we almost bought in 1999, their yearly fees were very close to Sun City's. Now they are twice (on a two family property) what ours are. While we have taken 50 cent a month ($6 per year) hikes in the last years, they have taken 5% per year (or higher). When you factor that into an $800+ annual assessment, you are looking at $40+ a year.

    The bigger concern for me though would be their preservation fee (they have a different name for it). They have less home sales because of the smaller number of properties, but they still collect significant dollars. The troubling part is, i'm told, almost half of it is used to subsidize golf. If true, that does not bode well for the future.

    Just as a footnote to this discussion, Sun City West was to be 30% larger than the original Sun City. Meeker's plans for a bigger better community quickly went awry when interest rates soared to 22% in the early 80's. He was let go as the Webb Corporation was in a state of flux and the new president Swanson started selling off assets to keep the company solvent. Interesting to note, part of what was sold, the Webb Corporation bought back in the 90's. Unfortunately by then Surprise had become the taxing district, hence the newest homes in Sun City West pay city taxes to Surprise as does all of Sun City Grand (the land that was to have been the bigger Sun City West).

    And on a sad note, last year we watched the dismantling of the 7000 capacity Sundome. By then the community didn't own it, but the tragedy was it was a wonderful venue, loved by Sun City West, Sun City and surrounding communities. In it's place now stands a quite nice Fry's grocery store, but hardly a replacement for the once grand dame for entertainment. The good news is the Del Webb Sun Cities Museum got 6 of those awesome seats and visitors can relive those golden years in our theatre watching The Beginning. part 1 and The Beginning part 2.
     
  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Sun City Grand comes in at a lofty number 11 on the 55Places list. I can't argue that it is impressive and when it opened in the late 90's driving in was breathtaking. There was only the one entrance in those days off Grand Ave and the gated setting and majestic golf course lining the drive in to the model homes was spectacular. In the later years they added the Bell Road entrance and that too was a thing of beauty...especially when you came upon the golf course and the island hole surrounded by water.

    Like most Webb communities built in the later years, they spared no expense when it came to wowing you with their community buildings, sales offices and the model homes clustered over two or three streets filled with every model available. The sales office was a virtual taj mahal, and the sales people were all well versed, younger and quite knowledgeable. The oddity to me was when they were built out, they demolished the sales office for more homes.

    Anyway, as we wandered the models I was in awe. Everyone was nicer than the next. Massive master suites with huge bathrooms, walk in closets, dens and high ceilings and kitchens to die for. Then we came upon the larger models with casita's and I was drooling. Best of all were the base list prices, as they fit my budget and made me immediately calculating how we could make it work.

    Reality set in as almost every special touch was an upgrade. Homes that had a base price of $139,000 quickly skyrocketed to over $200,000. Lot sizes were smaller and streets were even tighter than in Sun City West. The rec centers were gorgeous but one quickly came to understand they were built first for show. The grounds were immaculately groomed and water features were in abundance. Everything was built to impress and while it did that, anyone with an ounce of common sense understood that once Webb left, those costs would be passed on to the owners.

    In later years while reading John Meeker's memoirs on building Sun City, he had just the opposite mentality than those that followed. His goal at DEVCO was to build homes and price them with almost everything included. He did have a handful of upgrades, but nothing like the game played these days.

    The real problem for me at Grand was the monthly costs. Rec fees were high (even with Webb Corp subsidizing them). It was in the Surprise school district and taxes were at least two times what Sun City was. Golf was and still is twice as much for the yearly pass. Pulte bought Webb out in early 2000 and the problems began. Sales exploded four years after the buyout and in an effort to maximize profits they hired some questionable contractors. It took a few years, but there was a substantial class action settlement with several owners who had bought after the Webb corporation had left.

    Fast forward to today and some of those concerns I had have emerged. Costs have soared and they have gone through a couple general managers who try and balance keeping everything beautiful while not busting the budget. It's a difficult balancing act as a good share of those living there have no financial concerns, while some of the older folks that bought in early on weren't as well healed.

    Grand also let's up to 20% of the owners be under 55 (but at least 45). The federal statutes allows that, but it is most be strictly enforced or they could lose their federal age overlay. While I wouldn't want it for Sun City, I see that as a benefit to them. Typically they are people still working and they have less of a "volunteer" based community.

    I have friends that live there and they love it. I have had visitors visit Grand and see it in a wholly different light than Sun City. It's exactly why the variations in age restricted living is so great, there are options for everyone. Grand wasn't for me or my wife, but clearly there's lots of folks who would find it picture perfect.

    From a strictly value standpoint, there is world of difference.
     
  8. Rusco

    Rusco New Member

    I once owned a villa in The Villages, Florida. In 2003 I paid $165k for a 3bed/2bath just over 1600 sq.ft. place on a golf course designed by Nancy Lopez. Arnold Palmer designed one of their other 18 hole courses. I loved the home and the place.

    Some of the comments by OP about "controlling all the media" are a bit of a stretch. Yes, the family does own and publish a Villages Newspaper, they have an AM radio station that originates in the Villages and they have their own cable tv channel. All of these outlets cover only very positive goings on, not tragedy, politics, fires and car wrecks like many other outlets. (I worked in radio for decades and have been a student of media my entire life). You can also buy other newspapers and receive dozens of other radio and tv channels in The Villages. (doesn't Sun City have it's own paper or cable tv channel?)

    I would return there in a heartbeat if it not for the humidity and bugs (common in any area in the south). The Villages is truly a spectacular place. (My ex wife still lives on that golf course :)

    Having come to the defense of The Villages I must add that I really appreciate the time, effort and information put forth on this thread.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2015
  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks R for the comments regarding The Villages. Having not been there it's impossible to talk about how nice it is, though I've been on their website any number of times and it truly looks impressive. The Villages has scored high on everything 55Places puts out so obviously it is for a reason (obviously they are that darned good).

    To answer your question about local media in Sun City; the RCSC puts out a monthly paper on the clubs and events in the community called SunViews. Additionally there is an almost daily, The Daily News-Sun and a weekly called the Independent. Both are owned and operated by multi-newspaper chains.

    My aversion to the Villages is truly based on a political perception. Yes I am a bleeding heart liberal and the best analogy I can give you is I won't shop at Wal-Mart. I find massive organizations who try shape everything to make billions to be a bit disingenuous. I don't and won't argue politics on here, but suffice to say when comparing the Webb/DEVCO story to Morse's scam creating taxing districts...there really isn't a comparison.

    Here's another cutline from one of the articles:
    Since 1992, Morse has raised at least $1.16 billion through 41 tax-exempt bond and note offerings in 11 special taxing districts, according to documents filed with the offerings. The districts use the proceeds to buy assets and services -- such as golf courses and water utilities -- from Morse, who has earned more than $900 million from the transactions.

    Florida state law allows for the special taxing districts, including entities known as community development districts, to issue bonds exempt from federal income tax so long as they perform a “wholly public purpose,” according to IRS guidelines.


    Webb's story was simple. He and Jim Boswell put up almost a million dollars each and built it themselves. And once it was built he gave it to the community and county. The whole idea behind Sun City was always about ownership by those living here. It's just a story that resonates well with me while The Villages doesn't. Clearly there's lot's of folks who could care less about the backdrop story, and I get it.

    And thanks for the comment about the time to write this thread and those that have contributed. For me it's akin to having a hobby. I only wish we could grow this site or another like it so we could share our knowledge, thoughts and ideas about age restricted living.

    If you get a chance Rusco, i'd love to hear more about the Villages, especially from someone who has owned there.
     
  10. 4n6

    4n6 New Member

    Hi all,

    My wife and I will soon be newbies in Sun City - snowbirds and love the forum. We won't be of age until 2016 but look forward to being in Sun City - Phase 2. We presently have a house about a 40 min drive away, just off of 17 north in a newer community, which we just sold. All I will say at this time is that we fell in love with Sun City and look forward to being part of this community - 2016. So just to reiterate on what Emily has said....we will be "youngsters" moving into the community.

    Cheers!
     
  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Welcome 4n6. We're looking forward to your joining us (both online and in Sun City). Since it's opening in 1960, those moving here have always expressed their love for Sun City and how it changed their lives. There's just always been something special about how we live, how we take ownership and pride in keeping it a great place to live.

    I always try and be careful to not to talk down other communities because they are all wonderful; but the comparisons to what we have for what we pay almost always are unimaginable until a person experiences the original Sun City.

    You're going to love it here.
     
  12. 4n6

    4n6 New Member

    Thanks BPearson and Emily....we can't wait!!
     
  13. Fiona

    Fiona New Member

    We have a home on the family side in Vistancia and enjoyed life there for over 8 years until all our kids launched. We had considered a move across the road to Trilogy/Vistancia and I have to admit, I loved touring their model homes over and over. What interested us in Sun City the original was the low tax bracket, what you could do to these little boxes and the tidy neighborhoods here...and the rec centers/gyms. I love Trilogy still, but the taxes were too high and the HOA was at that point $200 a month. We don't golf, so what was the draw? We have never looked back and love living here.
     

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