Did You Know????

* Did you know, during those first couple of Sun City's beginning years, the three organizations had term limits of 1 year as a board member?

* Did you know even with the small community population, all three organizations held those yearly elections and had 20 or more candidates for those 1 year terms?

* Did you know, by 1968, the Home Owners Association was free-standing and the rec centers merged to become a single entity (by a vote of the membership), the founding documents called for three year revolving term limits?

*Did you know it wasn't until November of 2003, the Articles of Incorporation were changed (the last change made), the documents allowed for a second three year term of office as an RCSC board member?

I've often debated (with myself) whether that change was a good thing or a bad thing? I know how and why it happened, so initially i felt it made sense. Having board members become better versed in their roles as board members should net out to be a sum positive.

Some 21 years later, in my opinion, it might have been one of the worst choices an RCSC board has made; yes the membership had to vote on it, so its not all on the board. While board members became better versed (theoretically), they also became self-reliant on their skills to solve/make all of our decisions (or worse, allow the GM to make them).

They argued, they alone knew/understood the facts. If only that were the case, the outcomes would have been far better. The past ten years, we have witnessed a number of board members, who after serving their three year term, elected to get elected again.

God love them for giving six years of their life/retirement, but how did it work out for them/us as a community? They sat by passively as the general manager ignored our miserable technology and frankly covered for her as it happened. They kept our lot assessments low, while ignoring the needed maintenance and upkeep schedule. They watched as she surrounded herself with loyal staff members rather than demanding job performance be results oriented. Don't even get me started on golf.

I could go on, the list is way longer and frankly, it serves no purpose other than as a tutorial. Once we got through the pandemic, conditions worsened. Say what we will about the retiring GM, she had a vision and she stuck to it. The problem was board members missed their biggest obligation: Oversight, accountability was nowhere to be found.

One would think, serving 6 years would have resulted in better outcomes. They meant well, but as we look back over the past 10 years, we have to ask, what did that net us? We'll be hiring our third general manager and we've watched a parade of RCSC employees coming and going and board ideas and efforts that have resulted in more often than not a shit show. Think not? How's the Mountain View remodel coming?

One would think, with that consistency coming with longer terms, life would be good, or certainly better than it has been. We've all argued why? Some more rational than others, and when i write these things, one might think i am questioning or insulting those who have served. Thank you for your service.

I'm not, i am simply looking at the outcomes. When i see the list of stuff facing the current board, i struggle with any logical conclusion we (the board and the community) made the right decisions. I know, Monday morning quarter-backing is easy, but i've been arguing these same points for years; at least since i ran for the board in 2011.

Which brings me full circle to the purpose of this thread: I saw where one poster suggested i run for the board, lead the charge. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that. I was 63 when i ran, was full of piss and vinegar and had a grasp of the community's history and an even better grasp of how Sun City worked. I was convinced i could make a difference.

I made none. I won't bore you with the details of how and why, there were plenty; some of them i have laid directly at my own feet. Some were institutional and had begun in 2006 when we hired a general manager and let her have control. Some were because boards weren't looking for more work, but less and the GM understood that fully and completely.

The bigger/biggest disconnect came regarding the membership. We decided they weren't all that important. The mantra to move here and have fun resonated in organizations across the community. Which is exactly why we are in the trouble we are in.

Without the members, we allowed the general manager to have all the answers. As she came to the end of her overly-long stay, she shoved those responsibilities at the board. Unfortunately they became the owners of a similar mindset: The board must have all the answers, and by electing them to multiple terms, they would do/be even better.

Through the cascade of GM's and slew of employees, we are on yet another iteration of grand new expectations. Maybe they'll do better, though after attending the June board meeting, i'm not holding my breath. And, after following closely the Long Range Planning Committee members quit (after 4 or 5 board members descended on one of their meetings), i've lost some of the faith i had placed in this newest batch of those elected to represent the membership.

Sorry, but actions always speak louder than words. They always have, they always will.

My single most frustrating outcome as a board member is the one i still chide this board and all that came after i left in 2014: Trust the membership. Listen to the membership. Engage and nurture the membership. Treat them and their ideas as if they matter.

I'm not the answer nor should be anyone's solution to the challenges we face as a community. I wasn't in 2011 and i won't be in 2026. The answers have always been smack dab in front of each of us: It's the community stupid. The choice to allow six year terms worked to destroy the need to encourage and engage new members to become involved and listen to what they had to say. Now days, board members just run for a second term.

I knew most of those serving on the LRPC, they were our future and the next generation board member. How did chasing them away because you didn't like their ideas work out for you/us? It's been happening since 2006 and at this point, it appears as if the board feels they should be the ones to have all the answers.

Nobody is that good, nobody.

As always, just one man's opinion.

 

I keep on saying it; we need to see what the revised bylaws look like!

I fear they will only become longer and more wordy but no real relief to the Members.

The answer isn't the board! Lord knows they're the problem. The more often the board changes, so do the PIF projects. That's why Mountain View is still a never ending cycle of hiring different architects. I believe the answer is exactly what you eluded to, and that's the need for the community to get more involved, but for that to happen, the board needs to make some concessions!

The board needs to start trusting the Members. First stop...committee meetings.

I put the blame on the committee Members as much as I do the Chair and Co-Chair.

It's the Member's fault because they allow the Chair and Co-Chair, and any other Director who decided to attend, to drive the initiative. Just because the Chair doesn't like the idea, too bad! The committee gets to vote to decide whether something happens or not, not the Chair alone. The members fail to force a vote!

As far as the Chair and Co-Chair, and guest Directors goes, they need to just shut-up! They like to take part in the debate process and try to sway the members, but when the time comes to vote they don't! If you're not going to vote, then I don't really care what you think!

And let's not forget...there's no need to occupy the time of two directors to serve on a committee. One director is all that's required, and they should serve only as Chair or Co-Chair and allow a Member to hold the other position.

And just as a side note: Can't say I've seen a definitive limit on how long a director or how many time a director can serve without seeing some sort of eligibility to run and serve again after being out of office for a specified number of years! But I guess at our age, time is running against us anyway?

 

It’s like the old ad said : “The system is the Solution”. In lessons/or until the system is repaired, the answer will remain the same. A group of nine unqualified do-gooders making decisions about millions of dollars based on making sure they don’t make their friends mad. Is that how you want your community run?

 

Well, these are some strong statements in regards to the current state of affairs.

Larry, the group of nine do-gooders, fellow members who step, up are the basis for self governance. Is the suggestion its time to do away with our current methods and employ a city manager type position, along with other positions such as a paid govening body? Just asking, as this would be a first that I know of for Sun City.

FYI, I take umbrage with the statements made that it was the committee members themselves who are at fault. Please allow me my explanation as to why. Not all committee members are aware they are in a position to challenge the leadership of the committee. Next, whether the member chose to confront the offending directors at the moment the meeting went sideways could have caused a great deal of stress of the individual member, or the total group of committee members who felt pressured by the offending directors. Lastly, to have taken a stand at the meeting could have caused a huge confrontation that was not desired by anyone. So the individual committee members resigned in protest, their dignity intact. To have taken a confrontational position would mean these same people, in my opinion, would probably still eneded up removed from the committee, only with a pall cast over their tenure and their decision to take a stand. Again, strictly my opinion. I beleive the LRPC members beleived and trusted in the process and the process let them down. I cannot hold committee members responsible when the entire governing process, as described in the by-laws as to attendance by directors to a committee meeting is clearly spelled out. Again, in my opinion, the committee members were blindsided with little recourse. If they confronted the directors in attendance, it would have been a very awkward and stressful situation. The only other choice I can see is if the committee members left in protest, again, removing them from the committee. So, I don't feel it fair to place the members of the committee at fault.

As to the other comment in regards to former board members running for office again, no matter how long they have been removed from the governing process, is a valid one. What standard would that look like? Should there be a test to qualify to run for the board to begin with? There are current guidelines as to the total number of years and total number of full terms a director may serve. Do you feel there should be additional language added to further qualify someone's ability to run for office?

I wonder if the current placement of new directors needs to be reviewed. Perhaps, when a new member elects to run for office, it is automatically for a one year term. If a comprehensive training program were brought into play, the newly elected director would get a cursory training session, prior to taking office, to go over the duties they are required to meet as a new director on the board. Don't brow beat them, but give a precursor overview of what it means to be a board member. Maybe even assign some light homeword, such as reading about the Arizona Revised Statutes and how they pertain to Title 10 and Title 33 corporations. This way when they return to take the oath and undergo formal training, they stand a chance of understanding their role in Sun City. The training can offer the information as to the scope of fiduciary duty and what that really means in context to their new role. How the board members do their work and emphasize they are one of nine, not another lockstep vote in the current process. This way the turnaround time to feeling more confident in their choice as well as how to be a good steward for the members is offered a shorter time frame then learning by the seat of your pants. Should this director decide to run again, then its for a three year term. The two year term limit remains in place, but the total tenure is now 4 years instead of 6. Again, just an opinion, and am not suggesting that the entire process be revised. Heaven knows we can't get the current system fixed, let alone suggest changes for more change.

I thank you all for your time and patience in allowing me to write these ideas and thoughts down. They are truly not intended to inflame, but rather, to seek additional ideas as to the thoughts offered here. It has been mentioned before the concern over a multimillion dollar corporation being run by volunteers. What alternatives are available? As for the LRPC, this was a horrible ending to a very talenented group of people being placed in this type of situation. Are we telling committee members their rights to be able to challenge those who defy the rules as written? In my opinion, another training opportunity.

 

After spending some time on another platform people are angry with Sun City. It is the belief nothing is working in here, and it's not just a few. Some were thinking of moving here but have changed their minds. How many more years will it stay like this before a professional consulting company is called to help (which has been talked about many times before), or at the very least talk with other Sun Cities to find out what works or doesn't work for them. I have said for a long time posting here is futile. It's just words and no actions are attached.

Disclaimer: I mentioned no one, am not accusing anyone of anything, not on any drugs. This is just my opinion. Nothing else.

 

It's only my opinion, but if a confrontation occured, I would suspect it falls on the shoulders of the Chair?

The way I see it, if the Members vote on a motion I believe they all understand the process, at least well enough to know that it either passes or it doesn't. The confrontation I would see is if a motion passes that the Chair refuses to pass on to the board for a vote, which was the cause of the loss of members on the LRP committee.

I've attended too many meetings where the Members allow to be stonewalled by the Chair.

 

Thanks for the comments. Before i begin, we should note the power of social media when used as a tool to reach people/members. I wrote and posted this thread 22 hours ago, we are now approaching 600 reads. The biggest reason is the link i posted on the Facebook group i used to be an administrator off. Imagine if we created a social media network with a goal of reaching both members and potential buyers?

Given some of the comments, i reached out to my Realtor friend with the question of how many homes were sold in June? 129 sales, and i suspect the RCSC will have some additional revenue with deed transfers during the month. While the number is far from record shattering, it's not bad given the mortgage rates are still high and the weather is what it is. He also told me July sales are doing well.

Sun City has been an attraction for retirees since the day it opened in 1960. It's never wavered and it never will. What is most often lost in the translation for new home buyers is what we were compared to what we are. For most, they have no idea of why the community succeeded like it did. No idea what it took for the members to be treated like owners. No idea of the millions of hours that were invested by those living here to become what we became. No idea on the sense of community that evolved and then devolved; or why?

It only matters to me because we can be better. It also matters to most of those posting and or reading, they know we can be more by doing more. The problem is when the board hears "doing more," they think we are talking about them. I'm not and i suspect most of you aren't either. Nope, we mean the board letting go and shaping a community of members who help take ownership of the process of self-governance.

It's a long first step and sadly one we have run from rather than embracing.

Either we do, or we don't. Sun City will survive nicely, one way or the other.

 

The problem with "views" on most social media sites is that they also count multiple views by one person as another view. Even you tube which is a pretty sophisticated site does that. I have stopped and started Board Meeting videos several times and the counter always registers another view when I log back in. Unfortunately, it's very deceiving.

 

One woman's opinion:
Don't apologize for talking about outcomes, Bill. We measure outcomes. Not ideas, not good intentions, not persona, not credentials, not process, not systems, etc, etc. At least, we should be measuring outcomes. Not that the other values aren't important; they are admirable only if they lead to decent outcomes. Measurable outcomes. I like that the Board is posting regular updates on Mountain View. That is an outcome and is measurable. However it needs to result in a completed project in a reasonable time and with a sensible budget. That's what will be measured by the Members.

I don't think the length of service on the Board is the problem. It's what you get done while serving that is important. I served on a school board for eight years and a hospital board for nine. Other boards, such as United Way, American Red Cross, adult literacy association, golf and tennis leagues, as well as others, had terms anywhere from three to six years. We accomplished a lot during those years. There were various amounts of input from Board, Management, people served or affected.. None operated the same. There were differences in communication and transparency.

I will say that I have never seen as much information withheld than I do in RCSC business. Does knowledge become power? I don't know. Does Management have too much leeway and authority? Who knows. Is our legal advice the best? Again, I don't know. There has to be a balance between protecting the organization legally and involving the members through information and connection. Right now I think we are leaning too far to covering ourselves from any potential legal implication. Because of that, we have alienated too many of our members.

Instead, I wonder if nine board members are too many. Don't gasp at that statement. When I was on the school board, there were six elected members, nine appointed on the hospital board, at least a dozen on the United Way Board, as low as four on some others. I know the Board members serve on various committees and commit a great amount of time to their duties. Personally I think they need to scale back on those duties and hand some off to others, either staff members, community volunteers or outside consultants. Board Directors should be policy makers and assure that those policies are followed or changed. They need to set the budget ensuring that it is adhered to or amended as needed. They need to point the organization in the direction approved and see that it stays on that path by monitoring a master plan and adjusting it under current circumstances. Lastly they need to hire a competent general manager, give him/her clear direction, and keep the GM accountable to those. Everything else the Directors do is "just fluff", in my opinion. They don't need to have their fingers in every pot.

One thing that has stood out to me recently: There is a lack of business on the meeting agendas. With a size of organization that RCSC is, the vast amounts of money that are involved, the thousands of members and guests served, the number of employees and the real estate that is owned and maintained, I am surprised that there are only one or two items on the agenda to be voted on at the last couple of meetings. Even consent agendas have a scant number of items. I have never experienced that in any of the Boards on which I served. Especially when there won't be any meetings again for a couple of months. Also I never experienced a long absence between meetings. What that says to me is, "Business is being conducted and decisions are being made elsewhere."

I love our spot in the sun. I have no intention of leaving but hope things improve, not just on one project or two, but universally throughout the system. Our Board and members deserve better.

 

Janet, such a great and inspiring post. Thank you.

I think it has been emphasized, repeatedly and strongly, to give the members back their power to influence the future of this community. There has been numerous suggestions as to the direction of such efforts and the potential rewards, for both the community members and the board members. Until such time the board members choose to embrace the changes needed, those of us posting and sharing our ideas are left with the frustration of seeing what could be done and that it’s not happening.
What I feel we all seek is a different approach to help achieve positive outcomes. Instead of the board trying to do things without member participation and input, there should be a transition to a more inclusive approach to achieving positive results. We are all left with writing about the desired changes, but the board needs to be the catalyst for change.

 

Exactly Janet and even more exact in that my remarks and feelings for former board members or general managers should never be taken personally. Irrespective of being paid or as a volunteer, over these past 20 years, i've known no one who took the job or the position to harm the organization. No one.

On the other hand, as i sift back through the years, i have watched the dismantling and shuddered as those decisions resulted in outcomes that were less than desirable. We, as an organization and as a community, opted to ignore and act as if everything was beautifully well done. It wasn't, not even close. The tipping point was when Karen McAdam was fired and the board had embraced the 40-50 million dollar, 8 year fiasco at Mountain View.

We finally came to understand the folly of our ways. The list of failures was long and rather than embrace and admit, we again pretended a few band aids would get us through. There was no chance and rather than looking outward towards the community and the membership, we allowed common sense to be overrun by personal agendas.

I've written it many times, the Strategic Alternatives Committee (SAC), was the single best exercise in all the years i had lived here (20 at that point). While some of the flaws became obvious, by the committee's end, Plan M had all the earmarks of a final resolution. Sadly, personal agenda's once again got in the way. No point in blaming anyone, hopefully we have have learned from it. Asking members to be involved and then kicking them to the curb resulted in both anger and frustration...and worst of all, distrust.

It reminded of my time on the board, that point when the GM told us to dump the long range planning committee. A couple of us asked why and the answer was "committee members had an agenda." If only life was that simple that anyone who puts up their hand, as a committee member, board member or the paid general manager didn't have their views and opinions, everything would function perfectly. Nothing wrong with agendas, if in fact there is a broad mix of ideas and opportunities to sort out the best.

The challenges we face are the same we have faced since 1960 and our founding. Our history has taught me/many of us, the broader the discourse the better the outcome. The narrower the focus and the more we keep everything internal and in the boardroom, the more short-sighted we become. The upside of tightly controlled decisions is they can act more quickly; at least until the plan is previewed by the membership and the shit hits the fan.

If you think not, one only need a quick look back to November of 2024 when we saw the PAC stuck atop the Lakeview bowling greens and the explosion that resulted from it. I know many of the board members thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, but the members were livid over the idea; worst of all it appeared to have come from the same organization that has done a brilliant job (so far) with the current Mountain View project. It was pretty clear, the results tri-Arc had presented were board member directed.

In a perfect world, none of our imperfections would show through. We aren't, nor will we ever be perfect. No one expects it. What we need to be as a community is inclusive. Pushing members away is how we got here. Pulling them back is how we will get out of the mess we have created.

Breaking the mold and returning to our roots will be no small task. It will mean the board and whomever they hire as the general manager looks beyond the boardroom for solutions. I've longed for that moment in time, i've yet to see it happen.

The Mountain View/triArc meeting was a beginning, the June board meeting along with the LRPC member departures tells me they still can't/won't let go.

We'll see eh?

 

I have also noticed since you shared this post on FB there are now 3 new accounts where the person is promoting their web page link or business. It will be interesting to see if or how many more there will be.

Posting something to an open chat room on facebook is just like asking everyone on earth to join.

 

I have admired the writers and their creative work posted in this thread. Such great ideas and motivators listed as a way to regain the momentum of Sun City as it once was. It’s always inspiring to take in the various proposals offered as a way to make Sun City great again. Each one is absolutely amazing and doable.
How do these ideas get implemented? Who can accomplish the goals laid out without board approval? Without the board, how is any of this attainable?
Really not trying to be the wet blanket, but once again, great ideas and inspiration, how can any of it be achieved without board approval? Do we need to form a coup and take the boardroom as hostage? I know, most silliest of ideas, but how do we, the members, affect the desired changes written about so often into action items?
I, as well as others, strongly desire the lifestyle that Sun City was. The decisions made by the board has removed the impetus to change the direction of the board it’s currently taking.
Would love to hear of ways to change the course of this ship to a new direction for the benefit of the community, the members, and potential buyers. Looking for a way to create an action plan that is actually achievable.

 

With all due respect it’s the several posters here, in my humble opinion, that are the problem. I have said things on this site and been treated horribly. Someone says the same a few weeks later and are praised. You accuse people of unimaginable things then claim drugs were the problem and delete your post. I say the assessment fee was changed in 2003 because no one here could keep track of the population and got ripped. Chris says it on Nextdoor and all is fine.

You get on this site and gripe and complain but never do anything. About a year ago I offered to help with a walk around (golf cart around) to try and get people involved and hand out issues that needed to be addressed. You all hate me so much I even got grief for that.

Now I am in a place where I discourage people from purchasing here, especially singles. Believe it or not there are cheaper places with amenities, just smaller. Personally, since I joined this site, I think smaller would be much better. I tell people to beware of purchasing a condo here due to management companies. I encourage people to watch board meetings on you tube prior to purchasing and pay close attention to the interactions. 6K is a lot to shell out if you are not 100% sure. I post a copy, or tell them how the assessments will rise over the next few years. I let them know about all the other fees and about the only “free” thing to do here is swim, pretty much every other club has a fee. Most are not aware of this.

The day after I joined Bill graciously “unwelcomed” me to the site, and even though I never met or even heard of any of you, all followed along like sheep.

Best of luck trying to Make Sun City Great Again.

 

Truly sad to watch as ass-hats invade the site and try and shut down the discourse. What could be the possible motivation?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

Don't post links to this site on FB chat rooms. They are not private. Look bac, same happened here in the Summer/Fall 2023, and no, I was not a member then.

 

Duh, the Facebook page i post on is a private group. On the other hand, it appears as if someone who is technology savvy has decided to try and wreck our community.

So sad.

 

Duh, anyone can request to join, and unless you do a search to find out if they live in SC and just accept a request you don't know where they live. Your personal profile can be blocked from everyone except your friends list. Nextdoor will not accept anyone without proof of residence, eg. utility bill etc.

And the extra bonus is anyone on your chat group can share any post with whoever they want to. Private? I think not. Maybe stick with SC history.

So much more sad.

 

Click on the "ignore" feature and they will disappear when you are logged in. Easy peasy.

 

I have sent a message to the admin requesting assistance. Because it is a weekend, I don’t know if the site is monitored. I have hit the report button on every one of these spam messages. Hopefully it does some good soon.