Given the commentary of late on this site, and across social media, it seems to be a reasonable question to ask. Sadly, you won't find an answer to the argument/debate here on TOSC or anywhere else for that matter. It's a little like the question about the chicken or the egg coming first, but without the high price of eggs these days. The interesting aspect of the discourse of late regarding the bylaws is fascinating on its face. Before there were bylaws (and even after they were written, changed and voted on a hundred/thousand times), the only document that truly matters is our Articles of Incorporation. You can find them here. They are worth a quick read. Their value and importance cannot be overstated; everything flows from and through them. And for those who don't know or understand; all of the other non-profit organizations spread across the community also have similar documents explaining their purpose and providing the blueprint of how they are supposed to function. It should always be a straight line from Articles to and through the Bylaws. More importantly how an organization functions should be clearly spelled out across each of the following documents starting with The Articles of Incorporation, followed by the Corporate Bylaws and finally the RCSC Board Policies. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. For years our documents, when oversight was provided by the Legal Affairs Committee, were pristine. The committee was made up of retired attorneys and judges who were fiercely diligent in reviewing any changes to be made and insuring what they said was what we did. Then it all changed, the committee disbanded, and handled in house/differently. The general manager became the chief author of changes, all followed with board approval. While there were occasional disputes over the documents, most often what was written was passed with little fanfare. That was when the Bylaws went from 18 pages to more than 36. I would argue, they became unreadable and often times not followed very well. We've spent much of the past 4 years trying to claw back some of those lost member rights and condense the bylaws, but even that has been a struggle. If you think not, look at the motions filed by members, for the annual membership meeting. They were staggering in size and scope. But alas, i've drifted and we need to get back on task and try and answer the question; Who Owns Sun City? I'm going to step away from the keyboard and return later. But as i close the thread out, here is one of the cuts i use from time to time from the Articles that helps provide guidance (and it is similar in other organizations' documents): Article XII In the event of the dissolution or winding up of the Corporation, all assets not otherwise disposed of and not subject to any trust, shall be transferred as the Board of Directors may then decide for carrying out the purposes or similar purposes of this Corporation. What does that tell us about ownership?
Not sure that the responsibility of ownership is the right question because as far as I understand it, corporations are not owned, but they are governed and run by the Board of Directors.
“Who Really Owns A Nonprofit? (Excerpt) A nonprofit cannot be sold. Again, without an ownership mechanism, it simply isn’t possible. If a charitable nonprofit winds down operations, the board of directors must distribute all of the nonprofit’s assets to another 501(c)(3) after all debts have been settled. Some other non-charitable nonprofit types, like 501(c)(7) social clubs, distribute residual assets proportionately to the existing membership. A nonprofit organization is not “owned” by the people who start it, nor their successors in leadership. These individuals operate in a position of trust and accountability for the public at large, who, via government, allow nonprofits to operate exempt from the taxes that for-profit businesses must pay.” # • Recreation Centers of Sun City, Inc. is a 501(c)(4) nonprofit corporation. Source: Foundation Group https://www.501c3.org/who-really-owns-a-nonprofit/
What to you holding shares in Microsoft? I know your out will be that you were talking about non profits. Learn to be precise because it eliminates confusion like your previous posts where you trashed me for not commenting on what you meant. Ready to take my Constitution test on the 11th? Probably not.
Of course I will fail YOUR Constitution test because we don't necessarily agree on certain interpretations. You still believe the Constitution gives the Federal Government the authority over abortion! You probably also believe it's against the law to yell "fire" in a theater? It's the World according to Dave!
In my Constitution test, it’s quite explicit. Yes I still believe abortion is ingrained in the Constitutional, you just don’t know how to read it, it’s actually quite explicit except to Clarence “Slappy” Thomas, his pet person Samuel Alito and the rest of the Slapettes. Like that stupid gun control decision.
Thanks for trying to get us back on track Janet, truly a challenge these days as pissing on threads appears to be the new normal. Oh well, that's life in and on social media these days. This one is the classic example of the "idiom wrapped in an enigma." To make matters worse, i made the header and the lead in even more challenging. The question was "Who Owns Sun City," while included in the first post was the language you questioned about dissolution within the RCSC? Eyesopen cited some legal definitions about ownership and even those make it pretty clear, no one owns it. And, if it is dissolved the assets have to be moved to a similar tax friendly nonprofit. Sun City's origin, because we were the first of our kind community, were deemed to be a for profit operation (for tax purposes), so taxes were paid as if we were a private country club. DEVCO spent nearly two years resolving that difficulty; without the reversal, Sun City would have died on the vine. Once we achieved the nonprofit tax status, moving forward became much easier. Better yet, it opened the floodgates, for the rest of the community organizations that followed. Which is where/how i mislead you, a mistake often made by many of us. I cited the RCSC's Articles of Incorporation while asking you who owned "Sun City?" We all too often think of Sun City as the RCSC; which to me is almost always the fatal flaw in our thinking/planning. Anyone who has read my rantings over the past 15-20 years knows i talk often of "big picture Sun City." By that i mean the rest of the community of nonprofit organizations that all exist in the same scope/space (not size or importance) as the RCSC. Would it surprise anyone if i told you these myriad of organizations have the same dissolution language in their Articles of Incorporation? That they were all created by those living here making application with a tax exempt request letter giving them a specific function within the community. And, the IRS granted that request which put them, as well as the RCSC, on a course to create a massive community infrastructure built by and for the membership/residents living within our white walls. A quick short list would be: SCHOA; the PRIDE; the POSSE; the Friends of the Library; The Del Webb Sun City's Museum; Sun City CAN; the Sun City Foundation (a subsidiary of the RCSC but with it's own entitlements); and easily one of the most successful, Sunshine Service. Interesting to note there were a lot more, with some closing for various reasons and some smaller ones still in existence to this day. Don't even get me started on the Boswell Hospital foundation and the Sun City Saints Boosters. The point is; Sun City is way more than the RCSC. We were built to be way more than that. One of the reasons we were so successful was because the community was inclusive of promoting each aspect of our internal governance and insuring we all survived through at least the most minimal of cross promotion. Like so many other things, we drifted, and watched as each organization was forced to fend for itself. Think back a few years and the ugly fight with the POSSE and the RCSC GM, it was nuts. It's what happens when that sense of community is dissolved. It's what happens when we forget about the we and think only about the me. Is it societal? Or have we just become that focused on what i want? In team sports, the old adage was; "we are only as strong as our weakest link." Over the years, we simply slipped away from the concept of community with an eye on what we wanted rather the what made the community unique/special. My love of our history was paved by Meeker/DEVCO making a concerted effort to convince members they were the owners of the community. They always anticipated we would become a city (like everywhere else was), but the vision they shared with the residents was as owners, they were entitled to make that decision. Suffice to say, they did one hell of a job. It was only in later years where the divorce from the ownership concept was popularized. Owners tend to take better care of their stuff, while those thinking they are merely here to enjoy all that is offered, creates disassociation. The choice made was done intentionally and impacted organizations across the board. While some minimize the role of volunteers, Sun City would have died long ago without them. Is there an answer to the question; "who owns Sun City?" In my mind, we all do. That said, if we fail and all of the organizations have to close up shop, there are no winners, there are just stakeholders with nothing to hold. The assets would be passed on to another nonprofit in compliance with their Articles of Incorporation. Will it happen? Not likely, but should we ever see the demise of many of the smaller organizations that make "big picture Sun City" function, our uniqueness goes away and we become like so many other places...just a place to live. That would be tragic in my mind and why i will take to the grave the belief we are the owners, we are responsible, we should be accountable.
Boswell Hospital did not have its own foundation, Sun Health Foundation was/is the fundraising entity for all things Sun Health. I don't believe SHF owned property. That would have been Sun Health/Sun Health Properties that owned it. Joe La Rue was VP, and is now CEO of all Sun Health. I do remember the baseball games. Weren't the saints a women's ball club and also wasn't the ball field used for the Brewers practice? They had a foundation?
Boswell Hospital did not have its own foundation, Sun Health Foundation was/is the fundraising entity for all things Sun Health. I don't believe SHF owned property. That would have been Sun Health/Sun Health Properties that owned it. Joe La Rue was VP, and is now CEO of all Sun Health. In my research I found a post with you as the author about meeting Joe. I would have paid to see that. I worked with Joe from 2001 to 2017. He is the kindest, most soft spoken person I have ever met. I never heard him raise his voice, cuss or be anything but kind for 16 years. Wow, he asked you to call about the Lakes Club purchase and you didn't. What a missed opportunity. "At the members only Sun City Museum addition grand opening i was standing talking with Jerry Svendsen. He worked as the PR guy though all of Sun City's development for DEVCO. We've become friends and enjoy talking with him. He knows tons of folks from those early years and has stories in abundance. As we were chatting in the kitchen a guy walked up and said hi to him and they began talking about the good old days. I had never met the man but quickly realized it was Joe LaRue with the Sun Health Foundation. Jerry introduced me to him and i was at my usual worst. We shook hands and i said "i can't tell you how many times i have taken your name in vain over the past years Joe." He looked at me shocked and asked pointedly what he had done to deserve that? I told him i was on the RCSC when the Lakes Club had come up for sale and i would have killed for us to have been able to purchase it. You may recall, the Lakes Club was owned by a separate corporation (that wanted to sell it) and the land was owned by the Sun Health Foundation. As board members we were told the RCSC was trying to work out a deal with Joe to secure the land in a trade for some office space in the building for the Foundation. It would have been a win/win, but allegedly Joe never followed through on making it happen. I always felt he was in part responsible for our failure to go after it. Shame on me. He told me he had no idea there was any real interest in it. In reality, there probable wasn't, other than from Carole and I. As we chatted, he indicated there was always the opportunity moving forward for that to happen. I explained i had no authority to do anything but as we talked about the importance of that building in Sun City's history be quickly understood why it mattered." BPearson, Nov 27, 2019
