Let’s get real

I’m really tired of the half-assed comparisons being made about the number of residents that are golfers and the fees vs what SCW charges. Let’s look at another view: how many people use MV and how can you justify spending $20 million or more on that renovation? How many people patronize plays and how can justify an absurd number for a new facility that will serve a very small percentage of residents?

When you start comparing fees at SC vs SCW, don’t forget to include the PIFs. Obviously RCSC is a bargain. So when you keep harping about numbers, remember that the majority of members don’t use MV or will ever use a PAC.

 

What is your point Larry? The majority of RCSC members don't golf and in fact never will step on a golf course. If you really want to dive into data, how about the fact that the 2100 golfers who buy the cheap passes have shoved the cost on the 4500 golfers who are being gouged to support your well under-priced golf (even with the increases). And, if you really want to drill down deep, the GAC lobbied to keep non-resident passes because they too were subsidizing their cheap golf.

This happens when you when a board member tells the small number of pass buyers they are getting screwed, you rip the community apart. Then throw in his goal to do away with the PIF, convert it all to spend on capital expenditures and blow it on golf courses. I guess the 50 million dollars (it's way worse, but we'll just leave it there for now) that's been pumped into golf isn't enough eh? But wait, it gets better, or is it worse, the 20-30 million dollars for desert landscaping coming due in the next couple of years will blow up the PIF budget even more.

Losing sight of the big picture Sun City is really the issue/challenge here. The theater should have been built years ago. The Mountain View Center should have been replaced years ago. Instead we had a GM who said all golf all the time and a board of golfers who said hell yes. It's what happens when we lose that sense of community and just demand wanting what we want, the community be damned.

 

There is no activity or club in RCSC that serves or is used by a majority(51%) of members. Any one pool is likely used by a couple hundred individuals. The same can be said for the workout area.
The beauty of Sun City is the availability of a wide range of activities.

 

I just read that Palmbrook full play pass is $5200 for members. They get some perks with that, but, let's talk golf fees! And, there is a water resource surcharge included with that fee!

 

Linda,

You are correct that a full play pass is $5200 per person and $7200 for a couple if they become Members at Palmbrook Golf Course. That is $3400 more than a full play pass at RCSC courses or nearly three times as much.

However let's compare the daily walk on fees. The Public rate at Palmbrook is $54 for 18 holes and includes a riding cart. (I think it also includes range balls; at least it did last year.) Our RCSC walk on rate for Members is $39 and about $12 for a cart. So we are comparing $54 (Palmbrook) to $51 (RCSC courses). If you add in the approximately $2.50 for range balls, it's virtually even. Plus Palmbrook has Daily Deals that they will text to a golfer for $40 tee times that include a riding cart. For tomorrow (October 16th) there are three prime time tee times available for $40 as well as many earlier and some later for less money. The owners of Palmbrook know that they can't let tee times go unfilled so they offer these last minute deals to increase their revenue.

In that same vein, a person must give a credit card number when making the tee time, either online or by calling the pro shop. The credit card is not charged until the golfer shows up for their time or is a no show. Their website doesn't say how far ahead a golfer must cancel to not have the no show charge.

You should stop by their clubhouse (25,000 square feet) to see it. Tuesdays are Taco Night and the public is welcome. Although somewhat dated, it has a very nice ambiance.

As you can see, it is much cheaper to buy a full play pass at RCSC than Palmbrook. However, it is basically the same amount between the courses for walk on green fees and a riding cart.

Since I am a snowbird and the full play pass isn't feasible for me, please tell me why I should play at the RCSC courses rather than Palmbrook.

 

And, that's the kind of comparison that's helpful and makes sense. Their full play pass comes with perks for their friends to play, etc.

And, didn't someone at the Exchange say we (RCSC) couldn't figure out a way to assess a fee for no shows? Is it a technology issue, an implemtation issue, or we just don't like that idea thing? Seems like that high percentage of "no shows" could be knocked down pretty quickly with the Palmbrook method.

Thanks, Janet.

 

The no show problem was quickly shot down because, wait for it, this is Sun City and we are all old and stuff happens. I think the figure that Kevin put out for March of this past year was 22% no shows. Mind you, that includes a 4some or a 5some where one (or more) players in the group doesn't show. I guess one could argue for a full play pass, there's no lost revenue other than had they been able to re-book the tee time. On the other hand, the surcharge player is both the lost revenue ($7 high season) and the revenue had they been able to book it unless it was filled by a full play pass buyer. See the consistent theme here on full play passes?

I know i went to an extreme to detail the differences between Sun City and Sun City West but it was both staggering and telling. Our daily rate is $3 less (after the $4 raise) while every pass in Sun City West is at least twice as much. The funny (not really) thing is i suspect Director Darbut looks at all golfers and sees votes. We'll see how that works out when the daily walk-on players (4500) of them come to understand they've been the fodder for the pass buyers (2100).

It's going to be a really ugly fall but i see no way around it. We've been down this road before and it played out horribly.

 

Bill, as my grandmother used to say, that's just popycock! Grownups giving excuses like that are ridiculous. I know you know that. It's long past time to get serious. I'm not against golf. I'm a former golfer - not serious, and not great at it, but I get it. I've run 14 charity golf events that raised a lot of money. I know golfers that eat, live, sleep and yes, drink golf. Golf is important, but for the remaining members, so are the rest of our amenities. Everything needs similar consideration. I'm not sure how we overcome the built-in belief by some very vocal and persuasive members that golf reigns supreme.

One final thought as some are suggesting members pay for Pickleball. Before we jump there, we need to look at the cost to build and maintain pickleball courts, costs and any maintainence of equipment and staff (?) and compare it to a couple of golf courses - equipment, staff, water, seed, fertilizer, etc. For outdoor courts, periodic resurfacing is pretty minimal and equipment is a blip on a spreadsheet when compared to golf. If RCSC builds an indoor facility at some point it's a new discussion, but also one that needs to be thoroughly researched. If the only retirement community possibly charging for pickleball is the largest and wealthiest in the country, it's probably not a legitimate comparison. Just a thought.

 

I don't know about the courts within the Villages but this article clearly states the courts will be at another location and might not be accessible with a golf car!

https://www.villages-news.com/2022/...y-1000-initiation-fee-at-new-indoor-facility/

 

More importantly, it says this: The Pickleball Club is acquiring sites and plans to build at least 15 indoor private pickleball clubs throughout Florida, to the tune of about $180 million. This is a for-profit business, not even in the Villages.

 

One of the opinions I've been hearing is perhaps Pickleballer's should have to reserve court times just like golf because the truth is, as I have heard, the data doesn't really show the need for more courts. It's just that everybody wants to play at the same time!

Another suggestion was, when they renovate Mountain View convert the tennis courts to Pickleball courts but leave room to add more if it really becomes necessary. I suppose that extra room would be where the Lawn Bowling courts are, which could probably accommodate another 6-8 courts! This also seems to be the direction the SAC is going. Let's not put the cart in front of the horse. As the sport continues to grow so should the number of courts but not until the real need presents itself with data!

Let's face it folks, I don't think an air-conditioned indoor Pickleball facility is in the budget unless you want to trade-off building the PAC, which ain't going to happen.

 

I still am having trouble with budget numbers. I mean PIF at $8 million per year for 10 years is $80 million. Plus annual assessment $525 per year with 30,000 households is $157.5 million after 10 years. Which gives a total between the two categories in the budget of $237, 500,000. Seems like a lot of money to cover what is needed in Sun City! Now compare this to expenses for next 10 years and explain to me the problem? Be specific please!

 

Tom, the short answer without getting too far in the weeds: assessments pay for operations. Also included in the annual budget is income from a wide wage of other revenue sources: golf, bowling, food and beverage, events and some smaller miscellaneous items.

The years preceding the current increase, assessment collections were shy of $13M: 2023 increased that amount to 13.6M (not fully implemented until Feb). Total revenue for 2023 was budgeted at $25.8M.

Total RCSC expenses for 2023: $22.9M. There was an "excess" projected for 2023, that would add to that "non-accounting" carry forward fund that will cease to exist moving forward. Those dollars will be spent on the deferred maintenance projects being put forward by the Budget and Finance Committee.

PIF is not included but I don't think it's hard to imagine spending $80 million on infrastructure - sad to say. But, if we are going to keep Sun City an attractive retirement community for the next generations, what choice do we have? We have investments to protect. Our personal investments - and a responsibility to the community that we also own.

I hope this helps. The numbers are definitely large to operate RCSC.

 

Thanks for this! Though I did not include in the PIF category the existing $31 million. So that account would actually be about $111 million. Remodel at MV. Work at Lakeview. State regs for golf courses. What else in next 10 years? I assume all will be discussed at the town halls, but I mean, “really”. Lots of money!!

 

Couple of problems with you assumptions on yearly revenue Tom. There are roughly 27,500 households and some of them (no idea how many) are not paying $525. they were grandfathered at the half rate (per person). If you calculated the full 27,500 rooftops at the full $525 it would be $14,437, 500 but we know from Linda's numbers the revenue was in the 13 million dollar plus range. Added to the revenue is golf, 10 pin bowling, rentals, privilege cards and punch cards which got us to the budgeted revenue for 2023 of $25.8 million dollars.

As Linda said, the PIF is independent of the operating expenses. By now you've read at least two board members are lobbying to roll up the PIF into a different concept where capital expenses (that have come out of operating expenses for years) would now be able to come for the elimination of PIF and the criteria (15 year life and $300k) being gone. It would fairly well insure we would never have the revenue to do a remodel like we need at Lakeview (40-50 million dollars or more).

The argument is other age restricted communities don't have independent funds like PIF but there are no other communities as old as ours and with the needs we have. We also know the one director pushing the hardest for this change has stated we need to put 10 million dollars into our golf courses and this is how he do it, from PIF once it's converted to a capital account.

The good news is, the budget and finance committee recommended to increase the PIF to 5k (same as Sun City West), with $1000 into a capital reserves fund (2 million a year) and 4k going to the PIF account (8 million dollars a year). By the way, this years sales are off and we are projected to end the year around 1700 sales rather than 2000. The budget and finance committee meets tomorrow to review the budget; we'll see what comes of all those extra meetings they held this summer.

 

Hope the B$F committee presents detailed budget info. Especially the why’s, what’s, and where’s. And that the budget includes future spending and income for say next 10 years.

 

I think their goal is to work off a 5 year plan which is 5 years more than we did in the past. Sadly, the closest thing to a plan was projected PIF expenditures which were little more than what they lovingly called "place holders." Most of us watching knew they were nothing more than WAG'S (Wild Ass Guesses).

 

Understood, though I’m okay with the numbers I used. $8 million for PIF is a good average. One question I was pondering is: are the residents of facilities like Royal Oaks,etc. counted in the 27,500 households mentioned? Just curious.

 

The committee is proposing a five year plan that will roll forward each year; in other words we're always planning ahead. The committee is working on a line item detailed budget by department.

 

Good question Tom T.

I've never heard any definitive explanation on that. Always wishy-washer answers which make me think that even the RCSC doesn't have a good handle it!