Something fishy is going on with the bylaws??

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by FYI, May 31, 2023.

  1. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Just took a quick look at the online bylaws on the RCSC website. For some reason Article X, Standing Committees no longer exists????

    Who the heck made that decision? That was never voted on!

    So I guess Standing Committees no longer exist?

    Standing Committees must be authorized in the bylaws!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2023
    Janet Curry likes this.
  2. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    It was eliminated at the last Board meeting, 05.25.23:
    “Director Nowakowski – I move to amend the Bylaws by deleting the sections currently replicated in the reinstated Board Policies, listed below,…”
    INCLUDED in the list:
    BP#27-Committees – Article X the entire Article
    https://470eec.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/BOD-Mtg-Summary-5-25-23.pdf

    There are these still listed on the RCSC website:
    Corporate Bylaws
    Amended May 25, 2023
    Article VI Committees
    https://suncityaz.org/corp-by-laws/

    RCSC Board Policy Resolution No. 27
    Standing Committees
    https://suncityaz.org/committees/

    2023 Standing Committee List with each assigned RCSC board chair & co-chair
    https://suncityaz.org/rcsc/board-of-directors/
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2023
    Janet Curry likes this.
  3. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Thanks eye open.

    I forgot about the Board Policies, however, depending on how the stated tasks and responsibilities of Standing Committees are written, some committees may have to be stated/authorized within the bylaws or special rules of order and cannot be authorized by a simple Board Policy/Standing Rule.

    I need to do some checking and will get back to you!
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  4. Janet Curry

    Janet Curry Well-Known Member

    Ok, Tom, but let's keep it simple. The last few meetings of the former Board were bogged down with the minutiae of bylaws. I prefer to start with the general first before moving onto the details.
     
  5. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Alright, I just got confirmation that the tasks/responsibilities of the Election Committee meets the requirements of Robert's Rules 50:8 meaning the Standing Election Committee CANNOT be authorized by a simple Board Policy.

    The requirements state that if any of the following conditions apply, then the Standing Committee can only be authorized by a bylaw or special rule of order. The conditions are as follows (RONR 50:8):
    • if the committee is to have standing authority to act for the society on matters of a certain class without specific instructions from the assembly;
    • if all business of a certain class is to be automatically referred to a committee; or
    • if some other rule of parliamentary procedures is affected by the committee's assigned function.
    So to put it another way, (from the parliamentarians at Robert's Rules) it appears that, even though only meeting one of the requirements is sufficient, all 3 conditions have been met!

    1) the committee is charged with acting on specific matters related to elections, all of which, with the possible exception of "review and recommend election procedure changes" seem to be on the committee's own authority;

    2) business regarding the election procedures, recruiting of nominees, conducting candidate forums, and announcing election results appears to be automatically referred to this election committee; and

    3) the committee's assigned function clearly affects parliamentary procedures, namely those involved in election procedures and announcing election results.

    Therefore it seems apparent that this election committee cannot be established by a standing rule or ordinary resolution, but requires either a bylaw amendment or a special rule of order.
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  6. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    But Janet, they don't even understand the basics!

    At the last board meeting John Nowakowski made the motion to call the question to end debate, which the chair immediately ended and called for a vote on the motion. A motion to call the question officially known as "Previous Question" requires a second and a 2/3rd's vote to end debate!

    Might be time to have somebody actually educate the Directors rather than hand them cheat-sheet and a copy of Robert's Rules in Brief?
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Sorry gang, but i get headache when i read these kinds of debates/discussions. The easiest way to avoid Robert's Rules of order discussions is to create documents that spell out the organizations commitments as to how to function. The rub obviously comes when motions are made while arguing an issue and then procedure is dictated by RR. Of course, if they met in work sessions away from the maddening crowd, they could avoid silly motions and simply vote for or against.
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  8. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Isn't that exactly what the document's do? They spell out Robert's Rules as their parliamentary procedure used to conduct their meetings.

    The problem is they don't have a very good working knowledge of Robert's Rules.

    Look, I'll be the first to admit that I have a love hate relationship with rules but when they keep on pushing "We have to go by the bylaws" they also should have to go by Robert's Rules which instructs them how to conduct a meeting.

    Why should they have to comply to the State statutes and Articles of Incorporation and bylaws, but not to Robert's Rules?
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  9. GenX

    GenX New Member

    It seems to me, that this new board is trying to bring us back to self governance. Which from what I’ve heard, disappeared for many years. Let’s cut them some slack and maybe even try to be a little supportive.
     
  10. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    I get it, nobody likes a nitpicker but I don't view it as nitpicking, I view it as trying to educate. I just think that perhaps the boards need to better understand the procedures because when the meeting isn't properly administered you could be depriving other members of their rights.

    I raise these issues in an attempt to educate not persecute. Besides, I have no authority over what they do or how they do it. But every year there are new members, with who knows what understanding they have of the rules, and no basic training so nothing ever changes.

    But...I agree that this board is MUCH better then the recent board in so many ways. I think Kat is doing a very good job at allowing the directors to speak and not just shut them down like previous chair had done. She's doing the best she knows how and has been very willing to take suggestions.

    I hope everybody who reads this blog receives my comments in a positive manner and perhaps gets a little better understanding of how things are suppose to work. You're never too old to learn new things so just stuff the information into your memory bank, but don't shoot the messenger! :)
     
    Janet Curry likes this.
  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    My good friend Ben Roloff is the most knowledgeable Robert's Rules person i know (no offense Tom). As a 20 plus year county commissioner in WI they followed RR to the letter of the law (along with open meeting legislation he tells me there should be little fear of). Anyway, we sit together at meetings and casually points out the occasional errors made regarding motions. He's pretty tame about it as most often it's the terms used regarding motions and while they are from time to time incorrect, the intent was more important. Doing it right is good but these folks who volunteer their time aren't experts on RR and i don't expect them to be.

    Serving on the board is an exercise in continuing education. Honestly i have been amazed and delighted how quickly the new board got up to speed given a couple of their self-inflicted wounds and the sudden departure of 3 board members and now the GM. Their plates were already full and now they are more full. The demeanor and the hiding behind the hand-picked parliamentarian last year was off-putting at best and downright nasty as she was used to shield the president from the scorn she sometimes deserved.

    I think it is safe to say GenX, most of us on this site are delighted with the remarkable turn-around by the new board in such a short period of time. Anything we say is intended to help them be more successful than they already are.
     
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  12. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    And that's my exact point. If nobody tells you you're doing something incorrectly, how will you ever learn to do things right?
     
    Linda McIntyre and Janet Curry like this.

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