Another good crowd for an off-schedule meeting yesterday. The Exchange meeting, normally held at 9 am on Mondays was shifted to 3 pm. I expected the crowd to be tiny; yikes, wrong again. Lots of new faces and some new comments and questions. As usual, there was still frustration coming from the golfing community. We know the RCSC has raised the rates for full play passes, but it hasn't done anything to alleviate the prime time tee time debacle. We heard several golfers tell us about the number of times their lottery request was denied causing them to be bumped to a different course or a different starting time. Let's recap; this all started a year ago last April of 2022. It was the first board/member exchange meeting and we found out several things. Full play non-resident pass buyers had full access to our web portal, could join small groups of 30 or more and buy the $2 charge to override the lottery when playing with the small groups. We also came to understand how inexpensive those passes were (especially when buying the $500 golf car included pass), but to the RCSC's credit, they have increased those passes (not that it has mattered because they are still the cheapest golf rates in the West Valley if not all of Arizona). Over the past year we have been heard motions that would have addressed several of these issues. They failed. Management told us they didn't want to disturb the quest for balancing the golf budget and this added revenue from outside passes was getting us close. The problem was easy to identify as outsiders were getting tee times ahead of members. I would and have argued that should never happen. Never. Since that first meeting we have been treated to a host of statistics that have minimized the problem. At first it was only a small percentage of tee times. Then it was even without those outsiders, not everyone would get their requested tee times. Yesterday we were told the outsiders joining groups was only about 10%. I really hate when people use percentages because it covers the actually numbers. No matter how you disguise it, the problem persists and it won't go away. Not as long as non-members can access our courses before the RCSC membership. The $2 charge is meaningless because most of those playing in small groups buy the full play pass and already benefit by paying the least and getting the most preferable tee times. They bypass the lottery altogether. Yesterday i hadn't intended to speak, but i couldn't help myself. The golfers who stepped to the mic repeatedly had their comments rebutted by management and minimized. Their argument was it wasn't as bad as golfers were claiming. I finally had my fill. From this year through last year, in spite of the increases to outside play, the same problems exit that were raised in 2022. Nothing has changed as we have allowed non-residents to use our courses by joining their friends who live here and get the best tee times at the lowest rates. It's crazy. I made the comment; the golfing community, even though they've suggested changed have been treated like schleps. The director of golf approached me and wanted to make it clear, he never suggested, stated or implied they were schleps. I agreed, those were my words, my phrase related to how they were being treated. Hope that is clear enough. For anyone interested; the word schlep as a noun means to haul or carry something. I was using it more as a verb which means they were part of a very long and tedious journey. Ask anyone who over the course of the past year, that has watched outsiders take their tee times, if they feel the anger and frustration they've felt has been real? I made some additional comments and will come back and address them tomorrow.
I suspected i would get this type of comment which is why i took the time to post the difference used as a noun or a verb. While you don't know much about golf E, do you think a one year time frame to fix it is enough? Because once you watch the meeting from yesterday, listen to the words from the mouths of the golfers, nothing has much changed for them because the system we use is broken. I further splain tomorrow.
So Bill, with me not being a golfer, can you please explain the purchase of the Full Play Pass. Must someone purchase that pass at the very beginning of the year and it will be valid throughout that entire fiscal year, or can you purchase a pass in October and will it be valid until the following October? My point/question being; any changes the RCSC makes to the cost of those passes it will take over a year, and until those already purchased passes expire before the new rates can be charged to those who regularly purchase them every year!?!? Seems to me that some issues simply can't wait an entire year to see how they affect the purchase of Full Play Passes. Perhaps a rate increase should be accompanied by a 3 month or 6 month pro-rated pass to expedite how the increase will affect the sale?
We should be expecting a report from Management about how the straight sheets and lottery worked throughout March. From listening to some complaints, I would guess it didn't work too well. As I pointed out at the meeting, Chris, the Assistant Director Of Golf, recently said at a Board meeting that small groups were not much of a factor until the pandemic. Since there is obviously an issue now, why don't we go back to where we were before the pandemic. At the very least, the Resident full play passes need to cost more since those rates haven't been raised in five or six years. The option to reserve prime tee times before anyone else should also cost more than $2. I hope I can attend the Golf Advisory Committee meeting this month. I have been told that there seems to be a pretty even split between those Members on the committee who are in small groups and those that are not. In full disclosure, I am not a Member of any small groups. For the most part, I only play on RCSC courses on Tuesdays for Ladies League. Otherwise I have been playing at one of the private courses so that I can reserve a riding cart if I want one. Bill, you are correct that Management says we need the nonresident full play passes to make ends meet on our golf courses. An alternative solution would be to raise the cost of the resident no fee passes to help fund the shortfall. I sincerely wish that I would hear that mentioned from Mr. Cook or Mr. Duthu but I haven't as yet.
Nobody ever mentions opportunity cost. That is how much we’re losing on a daily basis because neither members or non-residents can’t book a tee time because non-members are basically playing for free on their annual pass. It really doesn’t take many players to make up the revenue of an annual pass if you run the numbers.
schlep (n.) "stupid person, loser," 1939, short for schlepper "person of little worth" (1934), in Yiddish, "fool, beggar, scrounger," Good job Bill, I have a solution for golf and all the crybabies that want a 9am tee time but can only get a 907 tee time. Solution: Kick all the outsiders out and let the RCSC raise our rates to $2000 a year. All your hand full of friends here will be on their knees kissing your feet. Nice insult to everyone.
Not quite to everyone SW, just the majority of golfers who are being dictated to by those that buy the full play passes. The rest of the schleps are paying for the full play pass buyers to be granted their every wish. Since the pandemic has run its course, we've been told non-stop about run away inflation...especially on golf courses. Seed, water, fertilizer, equipment costs and way higher labor rates have driven the expense side of the ledger off the charts. Guess which one group hasn't suffered any consequences? Come on sw, pull on your big boy pants and tell us who has not seen a nickles worth of higher golf rates since 2017, or was it in 2016? We'll take a deeper dive when i return.
The other day at the meeting, someone suggested we go back to the time before the pandemic and try and reinstall what was happening then. Apparently scheduling tee times wasn't the nightmare it is these days. To satisfy my curiosity, i pulled the end of year financials from 2022 and 2018. For those who don't know, the RCSC breaks golf revenue into three categories: 1), Prepaid green fees (member); 2). Prepaid green fees (non-resident) 3). Daily green fees and surcharge (which includes guests and visitors). Let's break it down from 2022 back to 2018. 1) Full play member: 2022: $2,075,102. 2018: $1,798,179. 2). Full Play non: 2022: $319,581. 2018: $97,542. 3). All other revenue: 2022: $4,456,767. 2018: $3,280,615. The first notable is the pandemic did indeed drive an increase in the revenue from golf. If you look closely the largest revenue stream is from #3 which is in fact where the largest percentage of golfers are; somewhere around 70-75%. The rest fall into the full play pass buyers, so clearly the minority population of golfers. The second factor that should jump out at you is the huge increase in revenue from non-resident full play passes. There hadn't been an increase in the cost of the pass till almost the end of 2022, so the nearly 225k plus increase is all from the number of passes sold. Worse yet, we know the changes in outsiders accessing both our web portal and playing along with small groups of 30 or more became the thing that was driving the sale. Someone in management decided to give them equal access. Here's where this all gets so complicated because this is the simple reality of the scheduling brutality where the minority of the Sun City golfing population (Say What's friends) have dictated the terms and conditions used to set tee time selection. But wait, it gets worse. The lottery doesn't even exist for those groups of 30 or more. They override it with the $2 charge and are guaranteed they get exactly what they want when they want it. The other 70% of the golfers get the leftovers or what is available through the lottery. But wait again, it gets way worse (i know, hard to believe). The 70% of the golfing community has had regular increases for a round of golf (usually $1 per year). The only exception to that are the surcharge buyers, but for them, every time they step on a golf course they pay the set fee based on the time of year. On the other hand, the full play pass purchasers end up with this equation: THE MORE THEY PLAY, THE LESS EACH ROUND COSTS THEM. That's the economic side of the equation. The bigger issue causing the angst is this; those playing the most and paying the least (per round), have dictated the terms of how tee times are allocated. The system is built to reward the minority population who are paying the least per round rates. Let me be clear, not all small group players are buying the full play pass. If i were a board member, or a member of the golfing community, i would want to know that data. Arguing it's only 10-12% of the golfers that are joining small groups are non member full play pass buyers is a meaningless stat. We know there's somewhere between 130-140 of them so the real question is; How many are in small groups, pay the $2 per round and then get tee times ahead of the members? Larry is spot on because the argument about lost revenue is silly on its face. We know from looking at the huge increase of revenue from category #3 the opportunity to golf on Sun City courses, based on cheaper rates than anywhere else, has driven huge increases in rounds played...and better yet at prices that actually pay for the massive price increases for all things golf. The good news is, the summer is just around the corner and everyone will be giving tee times away. No one will be buying the override because there simply isn't the demand. They'll have all summer off, but in my humble opinion, it's time for the tail to stop wagging the dog. And for my good friend Say What, those full play passes we've been subsidizing for the past several years at $1550 (that hasn't seen an increase for at least 6 or 7 years) should be looked at closely. Sun City West's full play unlimited pass for members is around $3600 and Grand's is well over $4000.
I am all for balanced budgets. In my experience, most public golf courses receive some subsidies from their governing body, usually the city. Privately owned golf courses either have to rely on memberships or players paying enough to cover expenses or they have some benefactors who are willing to write healthy checks to keep things afloat. RCSC is different in many ways from both public and private courses, yet similar in other ways. Since it is unlikely that RCSC golf will ever be self-sustaining, there will probably always be a need for subsidies. This should be expected since some of the annual assessment, as well as part of each payment into PIF, helps support and subsidize other amenities, such as swimming, pickle ball, the Vintage Car Club, softball, clay clubs, etc. Since I always hear that there are limited funds for all of the projects, the Board will need to set their priorities and could seek alternatives to funding them. The Sun City Foundation, which has done tremendous work soliciting funds for our citizens at holiday time and when lot assessments are due, could be the vehicle for a broader mission and scope. I am thinking of the lady who donated $100,000 (an amount thatI have been told) and the donation that one of our Management team has acquired from Desert Diamond Casinos. There are many possible sources for funding programs for seniors staying healthy and active, both in the business sector and individuals who would like to leave a legacy behind in Sun City. Did RCSC receive any of the pandemic funding or the more recent and expansive federal infrastructure bill? If not, why? Perhaps it has and I missed reading about it. I wrote the above paragraph before reading Say What's latest posting on TOSC that showed up in my email. Wow, Say What, you always seem to be a very bitter person! Your attack of Bill Pearson was uncalled for. It is fine to disagree with someone, but such caustic personal comments only reflect poorly on you, not him. Apparently you are afraid of having to pay a bit more for golf or losing your small group of 30 0r more. At least Bill, many other RCSC Members, and I have the fortitude to sign are names. I am reminded that newspaper editors rarely print or pay any attention to anonymous letters to the editor. If you are convinced you are correct in your views, you should be proud to attach your name to them. Nothing you have written has given any solutions to the issues RCSC currently faces. Really, who is the "crybaby" here? Janet Curry
Dang Janet, what the hell happened to say what's post? If you have it still, copy and paste it here. I do want to respond. It was one of his/her's more lucid posts. I also respected the fact he took the time to get the comments in readable order. Doesn't mean i agree with his comments but he's entitled to his opinions. I did want to write a rebuttable and use it to explain exactly what is going on with guys (or gals) like say what.
Actually SW, it was one of your more lucid posts. You took the time to make it clear and concise and when i finished reading it, i knew and understood exactly what your had said. I was hardly offended, the only head scratchier was your comments regarding my lawn bowling abilities. In over 2000 posts on TOSC, you would be hard pressed to find one where i bragged about my skills on a lawn bowling green. That would suggest you know me on a personal level but even with that i don't tout my abilities. Much like golf, it's a very humbling game. The other area you were wrong on was how timid i was while serving on the RCSC board. Back in those days we did everything in work sessions. I was never a shrinking violet in those closed door discussions. I have no problem expressing my opinions nor fighting for them. I was also a realist and when it came time to vote, Carole Martinez and i were just out voted. It's how the system works and public displays or attempts to embarrass the board or GM were counter-productive. The bigger questions your raised regarding Sun City history and more significantly, me telling/using it were nothing i haven't heard before. I'm often accused of living in the past and unwilling to accept both times and people have changed. The second topic was regarding golf and was more telling about you than anything else you have written. My goal was to use both subjects as teachable moments. Let me be clear, these were your opinions which i believe we all are entitled to have. Once you dump them in front of us, they become subject to scrutiny. Let me do that here: Golf and preserving the status quo: It's clear from reading a number of your posts you used to be an avid golfer who still has lots of friends who enjoy the game. I would guess, the bulk of them purchase the full play pass for $1550 dollars and are part of the minority of golfers who have dictated the terms of the game and how tee times are scheduled. Nothing wrong with residents fighting for what benefits them, but recognize it becomes an arguable reality it will be challenged if it doesn't make sense to the majority. By the way, i've never hated golf and written a hundred times Sun City was is and always will be a golfing community. The problem is we have clung to an archaic structure that has spiraled out of control. I know you continually bitch about the newcomers who want equal access, but from a practical standpoint; why should they be second class citizens? The problem isn't on their end, it really stems from those who have what they want and expect to keep it. If you haven't read my thread on "I want what i want." you should. It's how we got to where we are today. That 25% of the golfers paying the least for a round of golf and getting the exact tee times they want because they pay the $2 override (as part of the small groups of 30 pr more) have created an imbalance for the remaining 75%. Of course they want to keep their $5 or $10 rounds of golf. Of course they want to keep bypassing the lottery and just be awarded what they want, when they want it. They shaped the system to fit their needs. Then they went a step too far; they started bringing in their friends from outside and shaped the process to fit their needs. The problem was obvious, the outsiders hadn't paid a nickle into the 100 million dollars we will have invested in golf from PIF (by 2030) and worse yet, they were and still are taking tee times from members. That should never happen. Never. Trust me, i get it. They want what they want and don't want to lose it. The problem is, our documents expressly call for RCSC members to be treated equally. When a small group of long time members dictate the terms, there's nothing fair or reasonable about it. Beyond that, i really have to laugh when you suggest $2000 for a full play pass is something that is unreasonable. I would argue any full play pass is unsustainable...but the good news for you and your golfing buddies is i have no interest nor do i care about being involved in fixing it. The golfing community should be making those decisions and i'm not talking about the 2-5% that have been driving the bus. History and why it matters: This is one i could and have raged on forever about. It's not because i'm fixated on it per se. but because virtually all of this has been covered time and time again. I've long argued we should learn from it, rather than make the same dumb mistakes. Those first 45 years (1960-2005) shaped and defined Sun City in ways that was near on perfection. It wasn't until the new GM started tinkering with it and changed us into something that was unlike how we were built and why we were so successful. She had her vision and she took us there (with the board's approval). Let me be really clear; the bulk of our history, at least that matters for purposes of this discussion, can be summarized in these handful of words: Ownership, accountability. responsibility which ultimately led to a sense of community. They defined who and what we were. They were the reason we survived when the experts said we would fail. Why in the world would we run from them? Sadly we did, and now we find ourselves trapped in a malaise of a bunch of cardholders who simply want what they want when they want it. We find organizations that have little or no connectivity to the community and we all suffer. Think not? Look at where SCHOA is and how disjointed it is viewed. As the RCSC drifted away from other organizations, those same orgs struggled to find footing. The RCSC used to be the glue that held it together. The question we all have to ask ourselves is; are we on the right path. I see glimmers of hope from the new board. I see the general manager becoming more willing to listen. The challenge is, it's a long way back. Baby steps have been my best suggestion for the new board. They appear to be listening and working toward a more member-friendly community where their voice matters. Unfortunately, that old adage, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, has most often proven to be how we have functioned over the past 15 years. Small minority groups of golfers, or theater lovers or lawn bowlers (that ones for you SW) should never dictate what's in the best interest of the community at large. Like my signature has stated for a very long time...Community before Corporation.
Since Say What deleted his post and admitted he went to far with it, I have forwarded it to you, Bill, at the email address that I have for you. Please let me know if you didn't get it.
Thanks Janet, got it. I won't post it either as SW felt it crossed the line. My points were made without it.
Mr. Say What made a suggestion to raise the full pay, no fee pass for RCSC Members to $2,000. (However I think it was a tongue-in-cheek comment.) If RCSC had raised those rates each year at the rate of inflation, the current Members' full pay, no fee passes would now be $1888.54, getting pretty close to the $2,000 Mr. Say What mentioned. Here is how I arrived at that amount, making the assumption that those rates had not seen an increase from $1550 since 2016: Year / Inflation rate / Increase/ Cost of full play, no fee pass 2017/ .0211% inflation/ $32.70/ $1582.70 2018/ .019% inflation/ $30.07/ $1612.77 2019/ .023% inflation/ $37.09/ $1649.86 2020/ .0123% inflation/ $20.29/ $1670.15 2021/ .047% inflation/ $78.50 / $1748.65 2022/ . 08% inflation/ $140.00/ $1888.54 Golfing Members, not non-golfing Members, should be paying the cost of inflation for golf expenses. (BTW, I am a golfer.) Mr. Say What, when the rates are raised for 2024, $2,000 for a full pass, no fee resident pass would not be out of line. Thanks for bringing it up!
The really, really good news is this is in the hands of the golfing community and it appears as if those that have been treated poorly (the schleps) have had enough. We've listened for a entire year now how management had a plan and the reality is the plan has done little to nothing to fix prime time tee times (Nov-April). Most of us knew it was all happy horse manure, because what management really wanted was to keep the revenue from outside play flowing. I cannot make this any more clear than to cap it, bold it and repeat it: SUN CITY WAS BUILT BY AND FOR THE MEMBERS, NOT TO BE USED BY OUTSIDERS WHO WOULD BE GIVEN PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT OVER THE MEMBERSHIP! SUN CITY WAS BUILT BY AND FOR THE MEMBERS, NOT TO BE USED BY OUTSIDERS WHO WOULD BE GIVEN PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT OVER THE MEMBERSHIP! Hoping that is clear and concise enough even for the most mentally challenged amongst us who are reading this.
You are right, Bill, and please keep saying it. Some people need to hear it over and over again. I just checked the CPI so far for 2023. (January .05%, February .04%, March .01%.) That would make the fee $1921.87 if the rate was changed now using the Consumer Price Index. I am not necessarily suggesting that, but it is something the Golf Advisory Committee should consider. However that doesn't solve the problem with small groups. If the fee is raised and some Members are still not getting prime tee times, I think they would be very unhappy.
I'm less concerned about what Sun City golfers are paying for their full play passes than i am by those from outside our walls being allowed in and bumping members from accessing our courses. That said, no increases for 6 or 7 years to the folks getting the best tee times for the least money (per round) is crazy. If we've learned nothing else from the past years angst, it's that a small minority of the golfing populations (roughly 25%) has dictated the terms of play, costs and selecting tee times. Let me be very clear: Management had every opportunity to address these issues but elected to just hump along as if there wasn't a problem or concerns from the majority of the Sun City golfing community. That's just freaking nuts. I also heard a disturbing comment the other day and i don't know if it is still the case. We know the other organizations around Sun City hold regular monthly gatherings to discuss community concerns or problems. This has been going on for years and years. A while back, the RCSC opted out (don't ask me why, i have no idea). I thought that had been addressed and they were going to start going again. The story i was told was that it hadn't happened yet. I hope that's not true and i hope the new board and the GM all understand the importance of that sense of community that made Sun City so successful. Which is exactly why one of their butts should be in a chair and attending those meetings.
“We know the other organizations around Sun City hold regular monthly gatherings to discuss community concerns or problems. This has been going on for years and years. A while back, the RCSC opted out (don't ask me why, i have no idea). I thought that had been addressed and they were going to start going again. The story i was told was that it hadn't happened yet. I hope that's not true and i hope the new board and the GM all understand the importance of that sense of community that made Sun City so successful. Which is exactly why one of their butts should be in a chair and attending those meetings.“ ~ Bill Pearson RCSC has been the rich, big kid on the block refusing to work and play well with others. Far from the original vision of Sun City life. Progress is in motion with the 2023 member minded board! I’m optimistic there’ll be a renewed commitment of cooperation to restore that sense of community as well.
