Blowing Smoke…

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Feb 22, 2023.

  1. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
    Nia N Maxwell likes this.
  2. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    How can the board plan on spending $40 million when they don’t even know what the hell they should be looking for as far as optimum size for a theater?
     
  3. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It's a good question and one many of us have been asking. We keep hearing seating for 400, but is it really? We are caught in a catch 22 because we need to pay the architect to draw the plans (something in the neighborhood of a million dollars) and then we need to find what will actually fit on the site and the parking that will go with it. Worse yet, we have been told the contractor will build the building for the specified 27 million dollars, BUT, they will have the latitude to shrink the design to fit the committed dollars.

    My concern is if the Lakes East/West maintenance building was 4 million dollars, what can we reasonably expect to get for 27 million? I made a point to stop at the opening of it and while it is nice, it is a pretty bare bones structure. Then compare the ornate and stunning drawings approved by the board at the June 22 meeting and you are comparing an elephant to a chipmunk. It simply does not compute.

    I was so disappointed by the former board presidents comments the other day. Her closing monologue was a giant pat on the back for how well they had performed in securing the 40 million dollar project. What she fails to remember was they (the board) jammed through the re-vamped plans without a second reading on the largest project in Sun City's history. Just freaking DUH! They were terrified of the shit that was going to hit the fan come Sept following the break. That was truly shameful behavior!

    It also need be noted, nothing regarding this grandiose plan had a price tag attached to it when it was passed. All of that came later, when the board (or finance committee) asked the GM to attach price tags to the PIF projects. I remember the meeting well because director Hoffer questioned/challenged the GM's 3-5% inflationary adjustment, stating with supply chain issues 10% would be far more realistic.

    Now we know we have a double whammy on the 40 million dollars. Inflation is closer to 10% and home sales have soften dramatically. I was looking forward to seeing the collections from PIF for January at the meeting but by the time i got there they had run out of printed materials. Note to board and management; print extra when you know there will be a crowd.

    Lastly, i am more than willing to engage anyone regarding the MV project. The theater folks and the handful of others clamoring for it speak loudly about how it has to proceed. I get it, they have waited too long for it to happen. That said, the minute i raise the question of cost, they go silent and pretend it isn't an issue. I read one argument online where someone argued those of us against spending 40 million dollars just resented those living in Phase 1. Utter nonsense. I don't care where we are talking about in Sun City. One has to consider the size of the investment against the numbers of users impacted. Fairway for example came in at 16.2 million dollars but the numbers of users dwarfs the numbers at whatever they do at Mountain View.

    The point here is simple; when we bring up the cost of the project, answering "whatever" isn't an answer. It's simply ignorance.
     
  4. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
  5. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    How can any board approve a project without knowing what it’s going to cost. Here’s a great idea: let’s put a dome over all of Sun City and control the temperature year around so the summers aren’t as wicked. I’m sure everyone will agree that it’s a great idea. Let’s get it approved and then we’ll worry about what it costs. Reminds me of Nancy Pelosi’s statement about Obamacare. We’ll read it after we approve it.
     
    eyesopen and Janet Curry like this.
  6. Janet Curry

    Janet Curry Well-Known Member

    I find the concept of a Performing Arts Center at Lakeview very interesting. Lakeview was opened around 1970 . Mountain View is a mere three years older, opening in June 1967 so they are of the same vintage. I would say both have served the RCSC Members of Sun City very well!

    I live close to Lakeview and like using the outdoor pool there. I would hate to lose the pool, but, quite frankly, I don't think many people use it. (RCSC has that data. Mine is anecdotal.)

    I walk over to Lakeview almost daily so I have a pretty good idea of what areas get used and which ones don't. Most of the time, there are people using miniature golf, Hilltop trails, fishing when there is water in the lake, and lawn bowling. The shuffleboard complex sits empty most of the time and there are usually only a handful of riding golf carts in the covered space provided for them. I have heard/seen one of the tennis courts used twice since November. The fitness center is so small and crowded with older equipment, that only one to three people at a time use it. Very occasionally I see someone in the indoor spas, but the smell of chlorine can be quite strong. There is some use of the three social halls with the nice outdoor patio, but that space is empty a great deal of the time. A few of the club rooms are quite actively used such as the Women's Club, Sewing Club, Lakeview Painters, Leather Crafters and Wood Carvers. Of course the Members' Services office sees quite a bit of traffic and the Board room is used frequently. I do not bowl so I cannot speak to the use of that or the billiards. Nonetheless, all of this is over 50 years old and shows it age. Technology capabilities are marginal at best. I recall that the restrooms at the bowling alley were recently upgraded because of the smell. Let's not let that happen again......anywhere!

    Having no idea what the Directors who proposed this idea, are thinking, I am trying to visualize an auditorium with ample seating, parking and good traffic access and egress. There is plenty of room on that site for a fine Performing Arts Center. One Director even mentioned a patio overlooking the lake where Members could meet with friends before an event. Sounds charming, doesn't it?

    I presume the Hillside area would remain with the waterfall and water areas. Other than that, I suppose everything else will need to be considered for staying, replacement or removal. There is a large grassy area with trees and flags on the corner of Thunderbird and Del Webb Boulevard that could be partially converted to other needs. Also there is a large area between the lake and the bowling alley that is for storage and maintenance. Could some of that be moved to a different area? Currently there are four or five generously sized parking lots. Do we need two bowling alleys? If so, the one at Lakeview is still over 50 years old, so will a new one be constructed on the site? What about George's Restaurant (a mainstay of Sun City, for sure)? How about a coffee shop like the one in the new hospital lobby where people can gather for coffee or a small meeting? Again, looking over the lake would be appealing.

    Someone called this new proposal "The Sun City Arts Center". That got me to thinking that is could be more than performing arts. How about visual arts? An art gallery with revolving shows, both local and outside artists brought in? Oh, the possibilities are endless!

    I have been told that stand alone facilities are difficult to keep secure. If the Corporate and Member Services Offices are located on this site, as well as a few other amenities, this Performing Arts Center would not be a stand alone building.

    If I lived in Phase One, I would welcome the idea of Mountain View being mostly a sports complex. Lawn bowling, miniature golf, pickleball, tennis, multiple pools, and an indoor multipurpose area, etc. There would be adequate parking and the residents wouldn't have to worry about excessive traffic. Quite simply, the site would be very cramped if all three of the current proposed phases would be built on that footprint.

    Let's look at the RCSC amenities for each of the three SC Phases:

    Phase 1:
    South Golf Course and new Pro Shop and Snack Shop
    Mountain View Recreational Center
    Sun Bowl Ampitheater
    Sun City Softball Complex
    Fairway Recreational Center, with attached Maricopa County Public Library
    North Golf Course and updated pro shop and snack shop
    Oakmont Recreation Center
    Grand Center, with Posse office
    Quail Run Golf Course, 9 holes

    Phase 2:
    Lakeview Recreation Center, with Viewpoint Lake, Hillside Park, restaurant and bowling alley
    Lakes West and East Golf Courses, with new Maintenance Building
    Riverview Golf Course, with updated pro shop and snack shop
    Duffleland Dog Park
    Sun Dial Recreation Center
    Bell Recreation Center, with bowling alley, restaurant, and attached SC Visitors Center and Maricopa County Public Library

    Phase 3:
    Marinette Recreation Center
    Willow Creek and Willow Brook Golf Courses

    Looking at the above listing of amenities, I can't buy the argument that moving the auditorium leaves Phase 1 without enough RCSC facilities. If anything, it appears that Phase 3 is the area that has been shortchanged. Please tell me if I have missed something. (I found the above listed facilities on the RCSC Website.)

    My heart goes out to the Players Club who keep asking for an improved venue, but delays continue. I also understand Director Lehrer's frustration because she and others have put a great deal of time and effort into their vision of the Mountain View rebuild. I am sure Management feels some of that same frustration because they have spent countless hours on the existing plans. Our RCSC Members are concerned about the amount of money already spent on architectural fees at Mountain View and the $50,000 to develop a plan for pickleball at Lakeview. However, I support Director Fast's motion to pause this until a committee can research the best way to move forward. My mother used to say, "Don't throw good money after bad!" ( It basically means once you realize the thing you’ve invested in is not what you thought it would be AND likely never will be, don’t keep putting new money into it just because of what you’ve already invested.)

    Let's stop the finger pointing and accept that the pandemic threw us into pandemonium, a place none of us had ever been. I hope everyone can work towards the best use of our current real estate and PIF budgets. It's always easy to spend someone else's money, but I think we are on the right track.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  7. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    A
     
  8. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    Absolutely brilliant synopsis. It’s so refreshing to have someone think outside the box and present an objective view. Somewhere along the line, people have to realize that dreams and reality have to mesh and this cannot be the only project for the next decade.
     
  9. Janet Curry

    Janet Curry Well-Known Member

    Aw, thanks, Larry!
     
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I agree with Larry; nice job Janet. I get snarky when members tell us we simply don't care about phase 1. Three golf courses, 4 rec centers and the Sun Bowl/softball field tell us a wholly different story. Let me be very blunt here: two/thirds of the membership live north of Grand Ave. To even begin to suggest it's time to dump 40 million dollars into Mountain View is craziness. And to be even more blunt, the charge is being led by the Players who simply have been put off for a very long time and now they want what they want when they want it...costs (and impact to the community) be damned.

    Over the years i have had these conversations with members of the Players and have argued a more central location would be better for them They were adamant it had to be Mountain View because that was their original home. Nope, it wasn't. Community Center (Oakmont was). Town Hall South (Mountain View) didn't come along till June of 1967.

    The biggest challenge is and has always been where it can go and meet the parking requirements from the county? In 2009 or 2010 the RCSC did a study about this very issue but only a chosen few have actually seen it. We know Sun City West, with less space to work with, created a space allocation committee whose sole purpose was to see how and where to best fit clubs and events as their community evolved. They also do strategic planning on a level far superior to us.

    Sadly, Sun City lest the GM decide what was in our best interests and as she was reaching retirement, she let board members pick a bunch of targets that appealed to them. It is what it is and we are where we are, but the idea that we continue to chase the 40 million dollar dream of two board members is foolishness. It's time to get real and put together a comprehensive strategic plan that will set us up to succeed as new buyers come with new wants and needs.

    We already know dumping PIF cash into golf is going to continue. There's nearly 20 million dollars committed to desert landscaping to meet the 5th water management plan starting in 2025. Throwing another 40 million dollars at MV simply means PIF will be tied up for the next 8 years and for two projects that benefit small minority populations of the membership. I can live with building a multi-use theater, but let's be smart abut how and what we do.
     
  11. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    When you say multi-use do you include basketball?

    My definition of multi-use is:
    The Players
    The Concerts that are now held at Sun Dial
    Dinner Theater Plays
    Banquets
    Ceremonies
    Lecture series
    Orchestras
    Renting the space to outside community.

    Basketball is not one of the events I would particularly like to see being held in a Performing Arts Center!

    And the Players need to start understanding that a Performing Arts Center is NOT exclusively for their benefit so it's not just their opinion that counts.

    Sorry!

    P.S. I love the idea of putting it at the Lake View Center next to lake...now....if we could only get the old Lake Dinner Club building and property back!
     
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    No basketball/volleyball in a multi-use building. No indoor pickleball there either.
     
    Linda McIntyre, eyesopen and FYI like this.
  13. Cheryl

    Cheryl Member

    Random thoughts:

    • RCSC owns the lake.
    • The lake is currently dug up.
    • There is an excess of land and fill from the lake which needs to be hauled away/discarded.

    Hillside park (Meeker Mountain) was created in part I believe from excess dirt from the lake, instead of hauling it off, they utilized for an elevated park.
    RCSC owns quite a bit of lake front by Lakeview Rec Center and also the lake.

    Could RCSC redesign and expand the land/shoreline to the west side of hillside park to accommodate a theater? Or alternatively, since they own the lake: Redistribute the fill to the land on the lake side of the old Lakes Club to build a new shoreline, and then build the theater on that newly created land?

    This would be the ideal time to do any shoreline redesign since the lake is empty and the shoreline needs to be rebuilt.
     
  14. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    HUBRIS?
    Blowing Smoke…
    Did you hear Dale say it? If not, watch the video of the RCSC Board Meeting, February 24, 2023. (3 hour 25 minutes 36 seconds) Dale desperately attempts to defend previous boards’ process and decisions for Mountain View. Advance video to 2 hours 52 minutes.
    She blasts the new board members for being hubris, lists false statements and ALL she personally contributed to the process!
    Me thinks Dale is confused about which year’s boards WERE hubris!!
    (“The term hubris derives from the Greek mythology, signifying the dangerous combination of over-confidence, over-ambition, arrogance and pride. In the ancient Greek world hubris was considered to be one of the most dangerous traits one could exhibit.”)

    In the black box, TAP “Watch on YouTube.” RCSC is anti- social media airing their meetings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  15. Janet Curry

    Janet Curry Well-Known Member

    I wish that Director Lehrer would stop talking down to the other Directors and the RCSC Membership who have differing opinions from hers. I especially take issue with her calling us "people" as she has on numerous occasions. To me, it feels like a "land baroness" talking down to her "peasants". Although we technically are "people", in this setting a more respectful reference would be "Members" or "Fellow Directors".

    I have learned to pay extra attention when she says, "Okay, people (sometimes folks), this is the story (or way it is)." Usually she is going to give us information that we previously didn't know. I first caught on to this when I was watching the video from the Candidate Information Sessions 1 and 2 in early June. In the morning session, she danced around a question about when the Board meets with Management to discuss things because there was little discussion at the official Board meetings. The potential candidate was quite persistent, but Dale kept saying that Mr. Cook's door was always open. Then President Lehrer gave a completely different response to a similar question in the afternoon session. She told us OK, people/folks, this is the way it is. The Board meets with the GM in Informational Sessions between the Exchange and the official Board meeting to discuss things and brainstorm ideas brought up at the Exchange. The Board no longer come to consensus in these meetings like they used to in similar meetings. She was proud that these were done in the spirit of transparency. Transparency, my foot! Most of RCSC Members didn't even know these meetings were happening. Therefore, to the angst of many others on the Ad Hoc Committee on Bylaws Revisions, I insisted that some reference be made to these meetings in the Bylaws.

    In my opinion, we are in our current predicament because of the past leadership style where no other options rather than Mountain View could be considered. At the end of this past Board meeting, both President Kimmel and Vice President McAdam gave factual information as to the current state of PIF finances and it was given in a calm, businesslike manner. Thanks to them!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2023
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I can live with most of her antics, but when she rewrites history my blood boils. Really Dale; you did everything perfect? Give me a freaking break. The largest approved expenditure in RCSC history was the $16 million-$18 million dollars allocated for Fairway. Their process began years before the work ever began by meeting with the dozens of clubs impacted by the closure. They did it the right way, allaying fears and explaining it was a lengthy process that would be worth all of the clubs and members wait. They were spot on.

    On the other hand the Mountain View project was always undersold and under communicated. Yes there were two "town hall" meetings with 450 people. Yes, speakers told us they wanted their pool(s), yes they wanted their theater, yes they wanted their pickleball and lawn bowling. The ad hoc committee served a brief stint and verified the expectations. All good so far, right?

    Then stupid hit the stage in May/June of 2020. The plan moved away from the original want list to some grandiose crap that most wouldn't even recognize. The woman touting the importance of "data driven" decisions went off the deep end with the new plans in June. The launch of the "Master Plan" drawings on June 14 had us all gasping for breath. Repositioning the building sounded good but the impact to pickleball, lawn bowling and mini golf was upsetting and it was all done without any discussion with the affected groups. I know she claims they talked to them, but it was well after the fact.

    But here's the real kick in the teeth that she loves to forget, they (the board) waived the next reading that was due in September. The net affect was she shoved through the largest project ever proposed in RCSC history (16.2 million Fairway compared to what we found out to be 40 million dollars at MV). Freaking brass balls to sit there and smugly tell the world how perfectly they followed procedures.

    I'm sorry, it was and still is utter arrogance. The membership deserves better.
     
  17. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

     
    Nia N Maxwell likes this.
  18. Larry

    Larry Well-Known Member

    Fortunately Bill the membership now does have better. It definitely appears as though calmer heads now prevail and the current board has found the voice of reason. The time has come to fish or cut bait. Determine how many PIF dollars are actually available after current projects are completed and what a realistic estimate is for other projects that are also committed for and then let’s realistically look at what the future funding is anticipated to be.
     

Share This Page