It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

If I could LIKE this post a thousand times, I would. We do not use any of the clubs or amenities or recreation centers, but I without question pay my annual fee to be able to use them, should I choose to. The lack of transparency about golf, and perhaps lies about golf, is and has been concerning. Is it true that if we change a golf course to a walking path, or community park. or bicycle path etc., that per the original documents SC would have to sell the land for development? I read that somewhere and don't know the truth of it. And just to make a point, I'd like to say, with tongue in cheek: Maybe an idea, based on what FYI said, would be that I could, for a small fee, rent the use of my Member privileges to friends? If the organization is being run based on partial truths and/or lies, then we need to step up. Bill emphasizes fiduciary duty often, and it is pretty basic nonprofit ABC's. Pay attention, please, and remember - from Bill's post: "...we get our special tax status based on being an organization created for the membership."

 

Yup! And now we have rules for me, but not for thee!

The community needs to get their head out of their butts and start paying attention or they will lose all of their rights, assuming we still have any right now! Seems we've lost the right to vote at our own Membership meetings, so you have to ask, "Is there really such a thing as a Membership meeting when you're not allowed to vote on anything?"

And we still haven't had a response to those 5 motions that were supposedly "sent back for review by the Board" other than allowing them to kick that can down the road by shifting the responsibility over to an Ad Hoc Committee. I'm not holding my breath and it will be interesting to see what sort of involvement/participation they allow us "Cardholder's" to respond to them will be! I certainly hope we get more than 3 minutes to state our comments!

So...
We can't vote at our own Membership meetings;
We can't file a petition for recall without the Boards approval;
And even if we could we can't collect signatures on RCSC property;

So...will somebody PLEASE tell me what form of reasonable recourse do we have on anything other than needing to get 10% of the community to agree...assuming of course we're even allowed to initiate a petition?

 

All valid points FYI and exactly why this has been such a frustrating journey. I watched as the GM dismantled every safeguard we had in our documents and the board sat there in compete denial of what was happening. Their actions leave us almost no other choice than to deal with them through the courts. I've never wanted to do that.

We are where are because of what was done. It wasn't an accident, it was intentional. I'm giving Allan and the bylaws committee the benefit of the doubt, but does anyone here think any of the motions we made and endorsed via Ben's straw vote has any chance of seeing the light of day?

I would feel so very much better if even one of them could/would come on here and challenge the things we are saying. Don't hold your freaking breath.

 

I have concerns over some of the decisions/rulings Dale made at the last board meeting! And just what sort of advice is she getting from the parliamentarian?

I'm no parliamentarian but I know when somebody is blowing smoke up my butt especially when I can quote the correct procedure out of Robert's Rules!

Yes, the results of the Ad Hoc committee is going to be very interesting as is the opportunity they afford us to debate some of their new bylaws. More than 3 minutes I hope!

If I had to pick one of the 5 amendments that were presented at the Membership meeting that may come to fruition it would be Ben's which was:
4. Ben Roloff – The 2022 RCSC Board of Directors be tasked with revising the Articles of Incorporation by expanding the language referred to in “performing his or her share of the duties and responsibilities” referred to in Article IX. A. by adding “due process’ language for the Directors of the Board duplicating protections prescribed for cardholders as outlined in the Article II Section 8 of the Bylaws titled Cardholder Hearings, Procedures and Suspensions.

That's the only amendment that does not grant any additional power to the Members because it's all about the Board of Directors!

The remaining 4 all concedes a power back to the Membership. We can't have that!

 

I've got a few minutes before we head out to the pool with the girls and hang out for the afternoon. In that my new best friend from the board meeting the other day told me i didn't know what i was talking about regarding golf, let me share those numbers with you, so you won't know as well. Mind you, these aren't a figment of my imagination, these are what the RCSC has sent to the federal government since 2008:
Calendar Year. Expense. Revenue.
2008 $6,648,397. $5,270,336.
2009 $6,685,952. $4,910,742.
2010 $6,879,743. $4,616,101.
2011 $6,358,743. $4,616,101.
2012 $6,371,127. $4,478,267.
2013 $6,710,874. $4,726,422.
2014 $6,472,755. $4,983,943.
2015 $6,632,002. $4,979,432.
2016 $7,334,931. $5,117,093.
2017 $7,802,129. $5,137,337.
2018 $7,729,191. $5,102,793.
2019 $8,011,411. $5,143,779.

If someone with a really sharp pencil, or better yet a good calculator, wants to add up the totals while i am soaking up the rays, feel free. Otherwise i will run them when i come in.

 

Can-Do!

Dry yourself off and read the following.

I think you may have miss copied some numbers so I went back and checked the 990's. (2010 & 2011)

We're approaching 3 million a year!

All number are publicly available!

2008 = 1,378,061
2009 = 1,775,210
2010 = 2,263,642
2011 = 1,725,577
2012 = 1,892,860
2013 = 1,984,452
2014 = 1,488,812
2015 = 1,652,570
2016 = 2,217,838
2017 = 2,664,792
2018 = 2,626,398
2019 = 2,867,632
Total = $24,537,844

 

Thanks for checking my numbers FYI. I was working from some old sheets of paper rather than checking them against the 990's. 12 years, 24 plus million dollars is pretty simple, more than 2 million dollar subsidy a year. Again, it might be a good investment but unless and until you let the membership decide, it's just one person making the choice with a handful of board members who paid little to no attention.

By the way, the water was drop dead gorgeous. Happy 4th of July to all.

 

An amazingly good article in the Independent Letters to the Editor today by a former starter at one of the pro shops in Sun City. He nailed the problems 9 ways from Sunday, brilliant. There's also another letter from a resident who brings friend in to play. Hard to tell exactly, but his complaint is when he goes to rent a golf car for them, they seldom have them. It begs the question; are those buying full play passes with golf cars included getting first crack at the limited numbers of golf cars available?

So freaking much we don't know because they simply don't want us to know. Let me be clear, outside play isn't the issue, it is outside play being treated as if they are members when they buy the full play passes. Read the letter and you will see exactly the problems caused.

 

Keep it up Bill, we could solve all this very easily by upping the price of all outside golf, golf now gets very great rates also. At least get competitive with the country clubs surrounding us. There is just something peculiar about how Brian and Gang are so well protected, I was hoping getting Jan out would force Bob Cook to really take a deep dive into golf.
ALESIA BROWN

 

Hey Alesia, welcome to Talk of Sun City. For those of you who don't know, Alesia was the first one to raise the issue at the member/board exchange regarding outside play. You know, when the board nor anyone there knew if non-members could access our web portal. Obviously they (the RCSC) didn't give two shits about what she said. And so you know, her husband Craig was on the RCSC board years ago before he passed. While he and i didn't agree on everything, what's going on these days would never have gotten by the boards and management back in his days. They always viewed Sun City as our community not theirs and especially not some peckerwoods living in Peoria, Surprise or Glendale.

My hope too was Bill Cook would see this differently than Jan, everything to her was about monetizing anything she could. Clearly he hasn't and it may even have gotten worse. The article by the former RCSC golf starter Mick McKenzie in today's Independent was pure gold. Everyone just says i hate golf, that's crap. It's just time we start paying attention to what is going on and not with just golf, everything.

Glad you signed on to TOSC Alesia. We'll get this fixed, one way or the other.

 

There was a second letter to the editor in the Independent regarding golf and outside play as well. When i read it, the light bulb came on and i saw how it fit with the first letter. The second one spoke of how a RCSC member has his friends come regularly to play golf with him here. On several occasions, they had to change to a different course, where there were golf cars available. Seems all the ones on the course they had reservations on were taken. How does that happen?

Then it dawned on me, full play golf passes at the $2500 fee include a golf car with it. With 90 to 100 full play with car passes out there, those golf cars are automatically reserved for them. They get first dibs if you will. As i thought about it, we know there are some who don't buy the $2500 pass with car, they opt for the $2000 pass, without car. Are these guys walking, bringing their own car or are they playing with a group of guys where half pay for the car and the other golfer rides with them, thereby reducing the cost of car rental even further?

All of this fits perfectly with Mick's comments. His letter was in response to the article on the front page of the Independent the week before. He was quick to point out, the bulk of the outside play revenue Sun City gets is paid for at the full rate. For example, a public, non-guest fee in high season pays $46, a guest of a member pays $44 while an RCSC member pays $35. These rates are all cheaper during the summer months, as is everywhere else in the valley.

The point is/was, the vast majority of the outside play was by golfers paying the full rate plus, and often renting golf cars for the full $12 price. In that article, he pointed out, the general manager made the assertion that if the RCSC stopped the outside play, there would be a massive loss in revenue that would have to be passed back on the RCSC golfing community. He rightly acknowledged that was pure BS.

In his article he stated 1.4 million dollars came from outside play. We know from looking at the financials from Dec 2021, the actual revenue from outside full play passes was only $229,447. The simple truth is, those full play passes are a fraction of the outside revenue while they cause an undermined amount of heartache and headaches within the golfing community because of their access to our web portal and their ability to grab golf cars ahead of those wanting to pay the full rate.

Mick was quite specific, in telling readers the numbers the general manager was throwing out to frighten golfers to just accept outside full play memberships was nonsense. With most of the revenue already outside being more than our full play rates, the actual loss from full play non-residents would most likely result in those paying $20,18 a round either having to pay the full rates like everyone else, or they wouldn't play, or they would just play less.

In the end, the loss of revenue would be minimal. Golf cars would be more readily available for those paying the full rate and prime tee times for members would be increased. The reason i had posted Sun City West's structure was because that is the formula they used. Non-residents are more than welcome on their courses, but not at the expense of prime time tee times and not by selling them rounds cheaper than members pay for them.

 

As i have mentioned above, my friends from the Sun City Advocates hate when i talk, write about golf. I get it. That said, if you are paying attention, there are folks who have no association with the SCA that are speaking out. There's a reason for this, what is going on is so far removed from 10 or 15 years ago, golfers, are speaking out. This is no longer angry (said with a smile) Bill Pearson, these are RCSC members trying to get the attention of management and the board.

The golfers know what is going on and are tired of it. One long time member of the RCSC who has been attending meetings for twenty plus years mentioned when her kids came to play they pay the member/guest rate. They should. That's how it works, how it has always worked. The difference today is we've lost that sense of community where it belongs to us, built for us. When i get on my soap box, the tirade about golf is less about golf and more about the values and tenets we've lost, thrown away or had stolen from us.

Listen to what people are saying. Unfortunately, the board and management turned their backs on the membership. They were given the opportunity to fix it and they elected to say, "not a problem, nothing to see here." Amazing when you think about it, truly amazing.

 

I agree that outside golfers need to pay the higher rate. I don’t think they should be afforded an annual rate period. I also think the guest rate should also be done away with. You are either a member or you’re not. Only members should have access to the website and all others can only reserve tee times one day in advance.

 

Agreed, 100 %.

 

Larry and i haven't always agreed on the golf issue. Not a problem. There should always be differing opinions, it's what makes the world go around. What a boring place if we all agreed every time. The problem isn't with disagreement, it's when those who disagree are stifled, ignored and left out of any solutions to be found. It's why when you watch the member/board exchanges you see how little interest the board and management had regarding the problems raised by golfers; not me, golfers.

In fact, you saw at the last member/board exchange the president declare the golf problem was solved. With the wave of a hand it was dismissed as being inconsequential. So what if non-members were paying less than members; so what if non-members had access to our web portal; so what if they were bumping residents because they got into the lottery just like a member; so what if once they bought the package with golf car they took cars from full playing non-members and bought them at a fraction of the price.

The header on this thread was on point and for a reason: "It's not even about golf anymore." My point has always been to use golf as the fulcrum, the tipping point. Those living here need to understand what has happened within the community. We no longer matter. That sense of community, the exact nature and purpose of how we were built and why we were so successful has been crushed by idea the RCSC exists for the RCSC.

When loyalty to the organization becomes the end all be all, the membership becomes a distance second. Serving one master, the organization, is flawed and wholly unsustainable. The movement away from people/members to one where they just do as they please has been a day by day exercise to divorce themselves from having to listen. I told you back in the day when Alesia's husband Craig was on the board, they were adamant about golf and the courses belonging to the membership.

After last weeks board meeting, we saw exactly how far removed they (the board and management) have become. It is preposterous at best to think non-members have any rights on OUR courses. The old guard would never have allowed it, the new guard thinks it is just fine. Freaking shameful. Golf has become a microcosm of what is wrong with the new paradigm shift over the past 15 years. Sadly, i watched it unfold and could do nothing to stop it.

 

Truly amazing, more than 1000 reads on this thread. When i started it, my expectations were fairly low. Clearly there is interest. As i have written numerous times, i don't have all the answers; we know historically those living here have been the go-to source for solving the problems. It's been my bone to pick with the RCSC for the past 15 years; failing to ask or trust the membership for those answers is a fools game...and one that has been played far too long.

 

Tournament play rules changed for RCSC courses in Sun City
Management left to make fee changes

The Recreation Centers of Sun City Board of Directors took the first step to make changes to the tournament scheduling for non-resident golfers. The board approved on a first reading changes in policy that would guarantee one regulation golf course on each side of Grand Avenue would be available for non-tournament play at all times. The proposed change would also limit non-resident tournament groups to two events per month on RCSC golf courses and they could not be on consecutive weeks. Those groups would also not be able to book tourneys during overseeding, when four or more courses were closed or have cart restrictions. Non-resident tournaments would also have to be booked 10 months in advance.

“This is what was asked for by members,” Collins said. Allan Lenefsky, board director, asked if the changes would affect gold revenue. Brian Duthu, golf director, said it would not. He added he could see no negatives to the change. The measure, proposed by Steve Collins, board director, must pass a second reading before it is officially in force. But that won’t be considered until the board returns from the summer recess. The next board business meeting is 9 a.m. Thursday, Sept. 29 in the auditorium at Sundial Center, 14801 N. 103rd Ave.
While the board passed the tournament changes, it did not approve a proposed change in the non-resident pass fee. The majority of the board preferred to allow the RCSC management team to do that. Collins also proposed raising the non-resident pass fee to $2,500 per year without a golf cart rental and change the non-resident booking to four days in advance. But the management team is already working on changing those fees and the board decided changing fees was not within its responsibility of setting policy.

“These fees need to change in July, not January,” Collins said.

“Residents should get the tee times they want and lower rates.” Duthu said the management team is already working on changes in the rates and they could be changed as early as this month, August at the latest. He added the management proposal would be to charge $2,500 for golfers who walk and $3,000 that would include a cart. However, the rates would be increased slowly over time.

“These rates are normally set by the management team and will be part of the budget process.”

If the board passed a motion increasing rates it would set a precedent, according to Bill Cook, RCSC general manager. “We can implement new rates at any time,” he said. “But the step approach is fiscally responsible.”

During the May member/board exchange meeting, residents expressed a number of concerns about play on RCSC golf courses by non-residents. They were frustrated the non-resident fees were not sufficiently higher than member fees, especially regarding the annual passes.

Residents were also concerned non-resident had access to the RCSC golf portal to make tee time reservations, believing it gave them an unfair advantage.

In addition, they believed some outside play tournaments were barring member access to courses.
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Posted Thursday, July 7, 2022 7:00 am
By Rusty Bradshaw Mail | Twitter: @SunCitiesEditor SUBSCRIBER EXCLUSIVE https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/...rcsc-courses-in-sun-city,311770?cb=1657206937

 

Just curious but does anybody know how many of the top managers actually live in Sun City? And I would suspect that as an employee they have access to the facilities amenities? I know from a former RCSC employee that he was granted free golf while employed!

Management

Bill Cook - General Manager
Chris Herring - Director of Operations
Mike Wiprud - Director of Building & Infrastructure
Brian Duthu - Director of Golf & Grounds
Mike Dirmyer - Director of Bowling
Theresa Cirino - Director of Events & Entertainment
Kevin McCurdy - Director of Finance

 

I believe it's just 2 out of those 7!