Seems only reasonable to give this discussion its own thread. One of our long time members of TOSC commented about his years of volunteering and i responded in kind. I've known him for years, know the incredible amount of time he has donated as both a member of the POSSE and as a SCHOA board member. In my comments, i mentioned he is just one of hundreds, thousands over the years who have made Sun City so unique, so special. I have always had respect for those who volunteer. Even when i disagree, i try and do it respectfully. They helped create the type of community the early pioneers envisioned. The type of community where those living here assumed the responsibility and accountability that came with forging a sense of community. I'm not sure how or why anyone would try and argue or dispute that. In fact, my dream always was someone involved in Sun City's governance (during the past 15 years) would step up and try and clarify the paradigm shift that was being foisted on us. The one where the membership was silenced and told just to have fun and they would do the heavy lifting. Late last night my dream was answered. A poster who had been coming and going finally stuck his toe in the deep water and decided it was time to help us all understand the new big picture Sun City. Except, he did it by attacking me (and others) rather than talking about this better vision that has evolved over the past 15 years. Then he went on to post some psycho-babble regarding hate speech. If you look, you will see that is the new normal, blame others for your own shortcomings. So we are clear, i suspect who the poster is, not because i'm that smart, but because someone else figured it out on his limited posting over the years, and pointed it out. I'll leave it to him whether he wants to step out of the shadows or stay anonymous. It simply doesn't matter. What does matter is if we can have a legitimate, open and frank discussion about Sun City's future? I've made no bones about it for all the years i have been here; volunteerism is a basic tenet built into the fabric of Sun City. Losing it is makes no sense to me, but to be clear, that's just one man's opinion.
My new best friend 3g had this to say late last night: "We've already seen your so called "qualifications" posted so many times before with nothing of real substance ever included, just the same BS we read over and over that just feeds your giant ego. Also, comparing yourself to someone who has volunteered over 15,000 hours with The Posse and SCHOA is laughable. Why don't you turn over a new leaf and shut up if you don't have something good to say about your fellow residents." Yikes, harsh words from a man i actually endorsed for his second run for another 3 year term on the board. To his credit, he helped restore the long range planning committee (more on that later) and he lead the charge to record the board meetings (that's a good thing). See, i can be objective and give credit when and where credit is due. In fact, if you do a search on this site you will see my endorsement for him and cited those exact reasons. What is laughable about his post was minimizing the hours i have volunteered. From time to time i post a brief recap of my resume so new readers to TOSC understand where i am coming from and why. Because he suggested i have never done anything of substance, let me unleash the beast and play his silly game. What's most curious is, several of the links i will post will be to the RCSC website where the work i did still is online; how fun is this going to be? *We bought our first house in Sun City in the summer of 1999. In Oct of 2001 we had made modest improvements to the house. We had renters coming November 1 and the stucco job had just been finished along with block and tile work clearly visible to those passing. Rather than having people knocking on doors asking the renters about who did the work, we posted a summary sheet of costs per job, the contractors name and phone number and an introduction about us and how to reach us back in Minnesota. When printed a hundred copies and headed home. Within two days, they were gone and we had my dad print enough to keep the information flowing. I knew word of mouth was the best way to support good contractors and sharing the information was the goal. * We moved to Sun City in May of 2003 and by the end of summer i had been invited by Paul Herrmann, the director of the Sun City Visitor Center (which was free standing and not a part of the RCSC at the time) to become both a volunteer at the center and to be on his board. I did so willingly and it was an awesome introduction to promoting Sun City. * After two years, i ran for the Sun City Home Owners Association board. There were a slew of us, including a guy by the name of Ben Roloff. Four of us were elected and it took a matter of months on the board to realize it simply wasn't functioning like it should. There were 75 or more open violations pending and we were getting ripped daily in the two Sun City newspapers. We told the staff we were going to help them succeed. In response, all but one of them quit. Over the years, SCHOA became the organization it was intended to be. By the way, while there i wrote two magazines we distributed to the entire Sun City population. In our second year we drove membership totals to their highest level in years, more than 9000 members. Today, the total is in the 4000 total range. * From my term there, i ran for the Sun City Historical Society board. In 2009 i became a board member and served as their president in 2010 and 2011. During that time, we worked with Pulte (the owners of the Webb Corporation) to change the name and use the pinwheel logo. We adopted the name, The Del Webb Sun Cities Museum. We expanded our hours in 2010 due to the 50th anniversary and had a massively successful year. We also applied for and received both state and national recognition as a historic site. In addition, we created a website, their first and on the back side i wrote a blog with over 100 posts on the joys of Sun City living. I also had the privilege of working with a dozen or more media folks who came through Sun City during the 50th Anniversary. It was an incredible honor to represent the community and explain our history. * Late fall of 2009, as we were approaching the 50th anniversary, the committee was in dire straights. The economy was in the tank and the committee could not find any major sponsors to help fund the year long activities. Their publicity was spotty at best, and my old friend Paul Herrmann was heading up the committee. He asked if my wife and i would join it and help. We said yes and i took over the publicity. Every month i wrote two articles for the newspapers; both different. We made it through the year due to a dozen of us who worked tirelessly at every event (at least one per month) selling merchandise and whatever we could to make it work. We got through the year and were able to donate back to the community some $40,000 we had made once all the bills were paid. * When i left the museum, after my three year term, i decided to run for the RCSC board. If you read my bio and my agenda when i ran, you would see i wanted to restore that sense of community we had been losing. I printed a 4 page newsletter complete with past, present and future to help get votes. It was silly because there were only 3 candidates for the 3 open spots. I served out the 3 year term, though i tried to quit half way through. When i submitted my resignation the gm didn't want to take it, i asked why not and she said i was the only one willing to argue with her (not true because Carole Martinez had some beauties). * While serving on the board, they gave me the co-chair of the Sun City Foundation position. My first meeting the board president was there (RIP Vance) and he got into a fight with the board members and promptly got up and walked out telling me i was now the chair. What was so fun was i knew several of the foundation board members (many were former RCSC board members) and we got along really good. During that 3 year run we adopted criteria (something they were never able to do) and at one point tried to take it to another level. Unfortunately the volunteer attorney we were working with had a family issue and moved back to his home state of Colorado. What we were attempting to do needed a legal perspective so it died there and has stayed in its current state of paying rec fees for those who have out lived their resources. * Also while on the RCSC board, and the the year after i had left, i was asked to write a magazine for them. I did not do the layout and design, just the writing. Here are the links as they are still posted on the RCSC site: 2013/2014 magazine. 2014/2015 magazine. 2016 The Best Is Yet To Come. Let's take a little break here and i will return to finish part two.
Here's the rest of the story (part two). * In addition to that while serving on the board i was asked to write a script for a video we (the RCSC) was going to produce. The company that was shooting it wanted some sort of a blueprint to follow, and of course i offered. There's several videos on line, not even sure which one it was for. I suspect if i dig through my old files i could find the script, but why bother. * After my 3 year term at the RCSC, i was delighted to be off the board. If you do a search on this site you will find a post where i elatedly stated; "Free at last, Free at last." Sadly, my expectations of my role on the RCSC board was wholly different from what i had expected it to be. * I returned to the Museum board (2016) and quit after 4 months. I have a simple philosophy i live by when serving as a volunteer; if it's not fun, i won't do it. I stretched my patience and limits while serving on the RCSC board and vowed never to do it again. * In 2018 i was asked/invited to return to the Museum. Some board members had left and there was a new energy and vision for the future of the Museum. I quickly said yes and returned for another 3 year term. I joined a committee of 5 who were looking to the future and it was exciting to say the least. In that time frame, the museum got a donation from the Del Webb Foundation to put on an addition. As we were preparing to open it (the end of 2019), i started writing a 19 part article on Del Webb and the building of Sun City. You can find it by clicking here on their website. * When the pandemic hit and we closed, we had remodeled and rebranded the Museum by telling the world we were the community that changed the nation. Our docent population at the time was older and many of them were nervous about covid19 when we reopened. I had the sheer joy of writing all of the displays in the Freeman Room which is where we tell the Sun City story. I also had purchased many of the vintage items we had added and knew their history. I offered to give personalized tours during those months we were first open and ended up doing some 40 or 50 of them. I loved it and it became my passion. * During this same time frame i was asked to become involved with the SCHOA committee to rewrite the CC&R's. I accepted and the SCHOA president Jim Hunter was amazing. He worked tirelessly to "fix" them so there was no misunderstandings. It was a labor of love on his part. We were just there along for the ride, he did the bulk of the work. Following the pandemic, he got sick and left it to his predecessors. It's in limbo now and when asked about it, no comment is the answer. BTW, while doing that, SCHOA dropped the phone book they had produced and Jim again was the inspiration for a Community Guide. I won't post the links for either but if you check the SCHOA website you can find them. A good number of articles in the first year were submitted by me regarding the history and much of the other regarding the CC&R's was lifted from those first two magazines i wrote during my term on the board in the 2000's. The latest issue, both of the historical pieces came from me and the old photos and cut lines came from the museum. * I left the Museum at the end of my three year term, but for the past year plus, i start almost every day with a picture and post regarding our history from the museum's amazing collection on Facebook Sun City Arizona Chat. It's just fun to share those old photos so people buying and moving here understand how special and unique Sun City is. When i stop down and grab new pictures to use, i often am told how many of our visitors are coming because of those photos. * I've left off the dozens of tours i have given foreign visitors over the years. The dozens of speeches i have been asked to make over the years. I won't bore you with my time with Meals on Wheels, club officer or the number of hours i spend with new lawn bowlers through our bowls program. It's all simply part and parcel of living the incredible Sun City life style. I know countless numbers of residents who do the same. Back in those early years, there were residents who made us all look like pikers. Here's the oddity for me: I moved to Sun City for all the reasons listed above. The first day i saw Sun City i knew it would be my final resting place. I loved everything it had to offer. But to be clear, it wasn't just about being a fun city, it was more about living in a community where we all could take ownership of just how special it all was and hopefully always will be. Hope that helps clear up your misunderstanding of my years in Sun City 3g.
I’ll make my post tomorrow. Hopefully you will be in agreement. One thing to remember, my Sun City nirvana was from 1960 to the early 1970’s. By the time your folks arrived in the early 1990’s the whole experienced had diminished. Believe me, the years after the full build out we’re not a good experience. While I believe you want to go back to 1993, I want to go back to 1974. Neither are attainable. Maybe Barb will lift us out of the funk and bring us back to running across the golf courses between Grand-parents back in the good old days when our grandparents met at the Friday fish fry at the Grand Center…..
Is that your winding babbling brook on the golf course turned into a cement runoff moment? Society has changed and we need to change with it which it tough for the end of lifers but if we don't make some big turnarounds, we will all be holding on to worthless properties. I know that your single point of reference is the horrible RCSC but look around, empty lots, empty store fronts, blight.... Scary because part of the DEVCO experiment did not include Self Governance 101 for Dummies. My entire purpose here is get people to look around and see the really dangerous threats to our community and long turn future. While I'm not sure I'm ready to raise my hand on a $41m rebuild the other issues are more important to our long term viability. People are fired up. Please help me help them see the whole picture....
Hardly a babbling brook moment, there was a logical explanation for converting those muddy ugly streams to the concrete water delivery system they needed to be. That was the entire point of the streams being on the golf course to start with. The biggest problem with the ARS movement was their end game, to be able to sue the RCSC. I could never get on board with suing ourselves. Through all of my years here, my goal was to involve the membership. Communicating with them more openly, educating them on the importance of ownership and including them in the process is a far cry from trying to burn it all down. All things the RCSC should have and could have been doing. You mentioned my 24,000 posts, no idea if that true. Volumes of them are of an educational nature, everything from housing styles to the evolution of entertainment over the years. Many of them were encouraging members to show up at anything and everything going on in Sun City. Taking away the City of Volunteers identity and adding the component of the community's lost voice via the documents had a cumulative effect and one of the reasons we are where we are today. So to be blunt, stripping members rights from the by-laws was significant. As i have asked before, what is there to fear from asking those directly affected? As far as about Mountainview, i'm ambivalent. The price tag is terrifying and in all likelihood low. We've needed a theater for years, but there need be total clarity it isn't just for the players. Now that they've solved the pickleball problem with converting the tennis courts at Lakeview it should all become more manageable. The bigger issue once again is how it was handled. Then there's the question, is a gymnasium right for a senior community? Certainly looking at utilization numbers at Marinette doesn't show that. Is that a fair way to decide? I've seen some suggestions about using laser lights on the floors to provide multiple uses. No idea if that is practical or possible but the more options for cross utilization the more sense it makes.
I've said this before and I'll say it now, you and are in agreement more than disagreement. I hear you, the by-laws are significant to you and I'm sure many others but I could care less about the by-laws or almost anything else to do with the RCSC other than over the years they have tried to be everything to everybody and please the highest number of people no matter the cost. I've seen a wider spectrum of issues and for some unknown reason, we got through all of them although not without more than a little pain and suffering. I was here as a kid during the rec center merger and then the Sun Bowl purchase, both of which pitted neighbor and against neighbor and resulted in forever broken friendships. Then during my parents time the DEVCO pullout, new shopping center failure and Marinette mess which resulted in people bolting to Sun City West, so just like my grandparents my parents lost friends and neighbors because no one in their right mind would even consider having friends in SCW and vice versa. Then along comes ARS and my realization that the RCSC finances were not in such good shape. Fortunately a couple of rebuilds went surprising well and without many broken friendships. I may be scarred from past RCSC drama but I see other issue that are my babbling brook moments. A major one is new residents don't realize that there is extreme poverty in our community. I did taxes for a few years and found too many folks living on $730 per month yet way to proud to even consider assistance, my first babbling brook. This brings me back to the RCSC and Board which manages for the most vocal and connected, wrong order, connected and then vocal and not to those folks living on $730 per month. This is why increasing volunteers is so important. Without them we're going to have to pay more which may not impact you and me but it will have a big impact on the people without not only a voice but phone service and other essentials. Thanks for listening to my personal rant!
According to Sun City CAN, 9.9% of the residents of Sun City live at or below poverty level. While this is not an insignificant number, over 90% are above poverty level. So I tend to get upset when someone refers to "Extreme Poverty" in Sun City. Yes, there is some poverty and it's sad. Sun City is one of the most affordable "active" retirement communities in the nation, if not the most affordable. So take that 9.9% and how much of it is due to just piss poor planning for retirement? Most people can afford to live here!
Having served as the Sun City Foundation president for three years, the problem used to be worse. During my term (2012-2014), we were caught up in some pretty ugly issues. The % of those living below the poverty level was twice what it is today. Those who had bought during the huge price increases starting in 2005 and culminating in the crash of the housing market (2009/2010) were trapped, especially if they had bought a house with a balloon payment on their mortgage. After the crash, we had seniors buying in Sun City because how cheap it was. You could buy a garden court apt in phase 1 for under 30k and a single family home for well under 100k. Both problems hit the Foundation simultaneously. The intent was to be able to help those who outlived their resources. It was never intended to subsidize people who couldn't afford to live here. Not trying to sound callous, but the role of the foundation was clearly to take care of long term members who had lost a spouse and a portion of their income or folks who retired and the cost of living had long since passed them by. That was the reason we established a set of criteria and who could qualify for assistance. I would suspect many of that 10% population LC mentioned are RCSC members who fall into that category. It will be especially difficult as the inflation factor hits everyone and everything they buy. It's one of the reasons it may be time to re-evaluate the single payment versus the couples payment structure. I suspect most people have no idea that has changed back and forth any number of times during Sun City's history. I know the argument; it's easier to calculate revenue when every household pays the same. It's also grossly unfair for singles to subsidize couples. It gets worse. Now that we know golf has been subsidized to the amount it had been (25 million dollars in the past 12 years), that single person is helping fund golfers who take maximum advantage and play a lot. I won't bore you with the details, but paying $5 to play a round of golf is shameful if you think about a person struggling to pay their lot assessment so they can do just that. Especially when you find out they can't pay it on time and goes to collection where the amount can double. This is one of the real issues 3G talked about and needs to be aired in a public venue and forum.
It is discriminatory!! Darla Akins repeatedly tells our membership how “the board” has kept the annual assessment low, no recent increase, compared to Sun City West. She fails to mention in comparison, they provide ONE Owner Member benefit/amenities access with payment of the annual assessment of $497. The Associate Member is also $497! Sun City not only gives a FREE membership to the dual owner (buy one- get one free), but all the expenses associated with the free member‘s use is subsidized by the singles, too!! This policy is only in the interest of dual owner/residents! It needs to be equitable to ALL members! Fair pay to play! https://suncitywest.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/MembershipDuesFees2021-2022.pdf
I disagree. Sun City is subsidizing everyone. It's the apathy in the community that keeps the fees so low. If 10-15% of the population decided to use all the facilities, the facilities would be overrun. Just imagine if 20-25% decided to become active. As for paying extra PIF fees, in many cases it can be avoided. Put that 2nd wife on the Deed. Save some money to allow for one dying before the other. Live within your means, not above your means. This is a callous opinion, but it is reality. We keep claiming we are smart, seasoned citizens. Well prove it. I can't feel that sorry for all the poverty level people. I have a family member who lived for many years at the poverty level. She wanted to keep getting FREE medical care and FREE services. During covid she managed to collect $20K in unemployment and not get taxed on it. I wish I could get that gift from the government. I wish I could have done Cash for Clunkers in the 2009 and gotten a new car for less than half price. I feel for people in real need due to some kind of unavoidable tragedy. I don't care for those that don't try and continue to milk the system. I don't feel for people that live above their means, and need new TVs and new Cars. I only bought 4 new cars in my life and I drove them until they pretty much died. None of this, "Oh! It's 2 years old and I should get a new one" . I took care of vehicles and got over 10 years out of each one. The last one I kept for 20 years and almost 300,000 miles. Taxes and Insurance on a new car are huge in AZ. On an older, well maintained car, its minimal. More money in my pocket. I've taken this thread off Volunteerism. Sorry about that. But the bleeding hearts boil my blood at times. Sun City has services for those in need. Volunteers help make the services go further. Sun City is the City of Volunteers.
Here I go again. I disagree. It something is sold at a 2 for 1 price, the seller doesn't have to give you one for half price. In Sun City, it's 2 for 1 when it comes to the assessments. Think of the overhead if it was just membership for each person. I live with my wife, but I go the the RCSC and tell them I live alone. My wife never uses any RCSC facilities, so that would be fair in your scenario. Your scenario is based upon one person using the facilities. It's easy to identify a property in Sun City and assess the property. Every other scenario is extremely difficult and can be equally unfair to a couple that doesn't use RCSC facilities. What a rabbit hole!!! Wouldn't it be nice if someone could do a real Census of Sun City Residents (not just properties). Just think of what we could learn. Reality, I would put this on the level of boiling ViewPoint Lake. See, I didn't pick the ocean. Both are extremely hard.
As for golf ... It is an expensive sport. Clubs cost a lot. Balls cost a lot. And so on. Golf should not be subsidized. Not to the tune of Millions of Dollars. $5 dollar rounds are an insult. It should be cheaper on Sun City courses for Sun City residents. But not nearly free or ridiculously low. Sun City residents should get priority for tee times. I used to have an all you can play pass. That pass was eliminated 2 years later. I worked out and I was averaging $15/round. After it was eliminated, I was on a pass that gave me lower rates. My rate per round went up by at least $10. It was still a bargain, but not ridiculous. Golf should be self sustaining. It's easy to do. The people running the course know how many rounds exist and what the demand is. Adjusting the fees is easy. Eliminate the all you can play pass in my opinion.
I totally agree, most people can afford to live here. And I also agree people don’t plan well for retirement. I can count many long time friends in this group….but all those expensive vacations, home makeovers via refinancing cash outs and expensive cars were just so worth it until they have the realization that may not want to or be able to work until they are 80. The reason I referred to Extreme Poverty is just as Bill described above, Seniors whose funds have run out and no family support have virtually no way of increasing their incomes. If they have health and or mobility issues it’s an even worse predicament. Trust me, when it becomes a bad situation here in Sun City, it’s usually really bad.
Paying the annual assessment is not the issue. The number of residents receiving the benefits/amenities for the ONE payment should be the same regardless of how many people are in the deed. A single owner pays and receives one membership. The dual owner pays the same amount and two people are “entitled” to full access to all the great things Sun City offers. Discrimination!!
I’ve had family living here under both the per person and per house scenario and while it seems very simple, it isn’t. Let’s face it, almost everyone is looking for some type of deal to make their retirement funds stretch o farther so the easiest thing is just have one person on the deed. Even better if the second person never intends to use any facilities. It works great….as long as everyone is healthy and trusting and will never need a mortgage or reverse mortgage and both have never been married before and there are no children or other family members involved. Then illness happens and the liens start adding up and the sharks are looking to put the deeded Senior out on the street and make a quick buck on the house. Or the previous spouses and step children get involved and push out the non deeded Senior even if they are still alive and healthy. It happens all the time right here in Sun City where Senior abuse is alive and thriving. I know two cases, three doors down and across the street from me just in the past two years and I live on a small street. 1. Third marriage, non deeded talked deeded into a mortgage on the house. Took out mortgage, deeded died, spouse took off with the funds and the US taxpayer paid for the foreclosure. 2. Estranged step-daughter of deceased husband suddenly appears on the scene after 20 years and determines step mother needs to go into a very nice Assisted Living facility due to memory and health issues. Get’s POA and tells step mother she will sell house to pay for Assisted Living. Pays three months of Assisted Living with deeded owners checking account. Sells house, car and furnishings. Assisted Living tries to contact step daughter for payment after three months and she was gone with all the money. Lady became a ward of the state and died shortly after being moved to a state run rest home.
So let's be clear, how fees are paid has been an argument that has raged for years. In fact, the first year there was no assessment, it was a voluntary payment to use Community Center (Oakmont rec center). about 40% of those living here chose not to pay. It created a nightmare scenario and by years end they were scrambling to find ways to cover the actual costs. That first rec center was turned over to the community in February of 1961, but truth be told, DEVCO helped keep them afloat. As sales exploded they moved south and quickly instituted a facilities agreement for the next center, Town Hall (Fairway). The 1961 fee was $40 per unit but once they had implemented a facilities agreement they could afford to lower the rate to $12 per person. The rates increased to a high point in 1982 of $52 per person. The saving grace came in 1967 when the resolution over the non payment of fees for those in New Life Unit 1 (around Community Center) voted to accept signing a facilities agreement. DEVCO threw some money into renovations at their center and the vote to use all of the facilities passed. That was important as Town Hall South (Mountainview) was soon to open. Even as early as the 80's there were those touting a change for "pay to play" option. It has several variations, but never really caught hold. Once DEVCO left in 1979 the community was left to stand on their own, no subsidies. The early 80's were the most tumultuous of times. The fight was over those wanting to keep everything cheap and those understanding the importance of maintaining the amenities. Heck, there was a letter to the editor in one of the papers in 1983 suggesting Sun City establish and impact fee on every home purchased in Sun City. It was rejected until 1999 when the board passed the PIF. Too bad they waited so long. Over the years since 1982, i've been told the mop flopped a couple of times regarding single payer or single lot assessment. I could and have argued both sides of the coin. The lot assessment does make it easier to determine income for the RCSC, the single payer is more equitable for a home buyer. In either case, the discussion is never about whether you use or don't use the amenities. The cost of living in Sun City should include a payment to the RCSC. How much it is or whether it is for one or two people is the only argument. It would seem to me to be abundantly easy to check out hundreds of other age restricted communities and see what they do. Nope, not saying that should be the basis to change, i just find the more you know, the easier it is to make choices. Having seen the the impact of seniors living well past their mortality charts projected age and suffering the loss of a spouse who had added to their income, i know there are some really bad situations for Sun City residents. As 3G pointed out, this is another of those items that is often ignored and treated as a non issue. I know the Community Assistant Network (CAN) does a good job and know the Foundation helps when they can, but there need be a broader push and a wider effort to get the message out. It's that age old problem of volunteerism falling off as those living here fail to understand the needs of the community; big picture Sun City as i like to call it.
You were posting while i was typing 3G and sadly, you are right. Elder abuse is alive and well in Sun City and all over the country for that matter. Some states do a much better job of cracking down on it. Arizona appears to be far behind what we had in Minnesota. It should be treated as a criminal act. Unfortunately catching it is really difficult. CAN does have some services available as does the the Olive Branch senior center. There's a couple of others as well, but pulling the services together is near on impossible and most often are focused on nutrition. At one point there was a United Way (?) of Sun City but the assets were rolled into the Phoenix office and local control was lost.
