Close behind is IGNORANCE. I'm not saying anyone is stupid, but most people really don't understand the players, their responsibilities and roles. SCHOA, RCSC, COAs, Maricopa County, State of Arizona, Sun City Posse and many many more. There is no centralized city government, so we there is no Central Authority to work with all the players to coordinate services and try to solve some serious problems such as: Traffic & Safety; Homelessness; Pan Handling; etcetera. The number of people that showed up at RCSC after the Karen McAdam dismissal is pitiful. We may have 5-10 times more people showing up for a meeting, but 80-100 people is less than 0.2% of the membership of the RCSC. 10% is required to do anything to override the board. That easily over 3500 people. Probably closer to 4000. With regards to SCHOA, membership is optional. Probably less than 50% of the single family home owners choose to join. Good turnout at any SCHOA meeting is over 10 and typically less than 20. When CC&R revisions ere being discussed, prior to the pandemic, there may have been 100 people who showed up to a CC&R town hall meeting. Still a pitiful attendance. The Sun City Posse may have had more teeth in the days when Joe Arpaio was sheriff. What authority do they have now? They are not real police, but I think they play a significant role in Sun City. How well are they funded? This is an area I have not yet explored and intend to. RCSC is the most well funded. They have the power to assess EVERY homeowner in Sun City. Nobody else , but the County and Fire District have that kind of funding and power. RCSC only cares about Recreation Centers. They point the finger to SCHOA for most anything else. Cooperation between RCSC and SCHOA seems to be very limited. Usually its MONEY that wakes up the Apathetic folk. Want to increase the RCSC assessment? Increase it by $100 per year, and you may see 10% come alive; Frankly, $496 / year is a bargain. Most other retirement communities are over $1,000 / year. Some significantly more than that. Yet I see a small, but vocal group complain about a $500 annual assessment, when all that is necessary is to put a name on the deed. It seems loud when you get to a meeting, but it's really background noise. There was mention at the recent Board Session (9/20), of the desire to see PIF increased from $3,500 to $4,000 or even $5,000. I don't think the Apathetic members would wake up and take notice because the fee only occurs for a first time home buyer in Sun City. It doesn't affect the wallet of current Sun City home owners. Back to my original premise - APATHY is the Problem. I may not have all my facts correct, but I have been trying to figure out how things work in Sun City. I moved her her 3 1/2 years ago. I came from Sun City Anthem at Merrill Ranch - the latest Arizona Del Webb community. My taxes were almost triple my taxes here. My Recreation assessment for ONE recreation center was triple what it is here. I had better police protection ther than here, since Sun City Anthem at Merrill Ranch is in the town of Florence. By the way, Florence benefits from having Prisons. The prisoner count as residents when it comes to state and federal funds. Yet the prisoners don't really use the normal services provided by the township. In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) time would be better spent on this discussion board trying to find solutions to the bigger problem. This would include Better Coordination of Services that are available and educating people as to how Sun City is organized and works. Nothing is really centralized. You need to know where to go based upon the situation. I am stepping down from the soapbox...
I've often wondered why is SCOHA a separate entity from the RCSC? It seems like no matter whether or not your a member of SCHOA you're still required to comply to the CC&R's! So when you pay your annual assessment, why couldn't some of that money go to the support and membership of SCHOA so that everybody becomes a member? The membership fee is only $25 a year but if every homeowner were to become a member, and is renewed every year as they paid their annual assessment, I bet they could reduce that fee and SCHOA would still be very well funded? Makes sense to me, but what do I know? Is there some sort of legal issue?
Apathy is the problem and in part it has been the targeted approach by the RCSC to just tell people to have fun, rather than get involved. SCHOA is separate by virtue of their documents and how the community was formed. Almost every age restricted community after us adopted what i call single entity governance. One organization controls everything; don't comply with the CC&R's, they can keep you from using the amenities. We can debate whether that is better or worse; it simply doesn't matter. The RCSC, if they were to merge with SCHOA would in fact be covered under Title 33 as a home owners association (IMHO). I've been writing and saying this stuff for the past 15 years, mostly to a couple of dozen diehards. What is happening now is shocking because while the numbers are small, they are massive in comparison to the past. There was a reason i posted the SCWOOG story because we have the potential to do the same. My guess is people ignored it, just another long boring post by Pearson. But was it? If you haven't read it, here's the link; click here. Once you do, let's talk some more.
MW - excellent . You are absolutely correct. The over whelming majority of Sun City is apathetic. I said the same thing you have said a few times in this forum. The only thing that moves Sun City residents to show up at a meeting is MONEY. If it affects their pocketbooks They'll show up, but even then not in numbers that will make any difference. 19,440 reads in the Karen thread translated in to less than 100 people in chairs. I'd be willing to bet that the number of reads were so high because the BOD was actively monitoring the thread so they could plan their defense. When the yearly assessment is raised (and it will be) or golf fees are raised there will be outrage but few bodies in chairs. The membership has unwittingly given control to the BOD/GM. Think it's going to change? Don't hold your breath.
Well...it seems to me that we first need to start seeing hundreds of Member's start showing up to the board meetings on a regular basis? Until that happens we'll just be a distraction that board will continue to ignore.
I think the starting place is education and moving people from ignorance to being informed. It's a slow process, but the activists in this group could band together to create a true, living repository of helpful information. If you note, my email address here is Mike@SunCity.Life. I bought the domain a year ago, not knowing what I really wanted to do with it. One of the things, and the hardest to implement,is a forum like Talk of SunCity. I wish I had found this group earlier. Now that I don't have to do that, I have some other ideas for SunCity.Life. SunCity.Live can be a website that would be informative - One Way communication out. Something that with active help, could provide meaningful and accurate information. Some place to go to find out WHO can help me with my issue. A place where the differences between RCSC, SCHOA and other community HOAs are explained. Even some explanation as to why they exist that way, and what would be necessary to change them (a significant and difficult task). It could provide fuel to the Forum discussions that could uncover good ideas and strategies for improvement. It's a start and I would need help (ideas and information) to accomplish this. I can build the actual website. Its almost like a Wikipedia for Sun City but I don't want the typical Wiki interface. It can be done with minimal expense. It needs to be something that lives and we can correct errors easily and add more detailed information where needed. This would be long process, but could start getting this community to where should be. All depends upon the support and accuracy of information.
[QUOTE="FYI, post: "The membership fee is only $25 a year but if every homeowner were to become a member, and is renewed every year as they paid their annual assessment, I bet they could reduce that fee and SCHOA would still be very well funded?" ?[/QUOTE] I wondered that, when I moved here. Our community is founded upon Deed restrictions. This is in your Deed to your property. Del Webb didn't see the need for SCHOA and no assessment power was put in the deed, except for RCSC. Without SCHOA, your only option to correct a deed restriction violation by a neighbor is a lawsuit. Changing actual deed restrictions on the scale of all of Sun City, requires 100% unanimous vote. Mandating an assessment for SCHOA would require the same 100% unanimous vote. This is a legal opinion obtained by SCHOA. SCHOA was trying to clarify some conflicting CC&Rs (deed restrictions) prior to Covid-19. It's been derailed. Whether or not that activity gets revived is anyone's guess. It was estimated to be a 2 year project with an expected cost of over $250,000. SCHOA helps the community by enforcing the existing CC&Rs. They have even taken homeowners to court. They have experienced compliance inspectors (paid employees). They have the knowledge and experience for getting homeowners to comply. They do a better job than I could. I would pay double what they ask for membership. Their fee is a bargain. They have found other methods of getting income to support their other initiatives. Membership fees alone would not support what SCHOA does. As with most organizations within Sun City, volunteers play a huge role. RCSC may be the only significant exception as the have a big budget, mandatory assessment funding, and significant assets to operate and protect. But even they rely upon a volunteer board and other volunteers. They just don't seem to be too efficient at respecting their members (my opinion). The other organizations seem run like a Charity (volunteers and donation funding).
The RCSC Board of Directors has demonstrated they have no interest in engaging with its members. Until the elected RCSC BOD accepts and dedicates their service in the best interest of its members, they will continue to be “corporate” puppets; members just a nuisance. Granted, members are equally responsible for engaging with the RCSC BOD to effect change. The member levels of engagement are: Unaware, Resistant, Neutral, Supportive and the evolving Leading. NOW is a great time to grow interest and support of the membership to increase participation however they are able. What the RCSC Board and members should do: Remember Del Webb’s vision of self governance Communicate, communicate! Work together for our community Respect one another Understand before being understood Listen, really listen Lead with transparency and integrity Then, hopefully, more seats will be filled at RCSC Board meetings and “special sessions.”
Great ideas. This will take time to correct. I would estimate 2 election cycles at a minimum. We may be too late for this year's elections. Also note (right from the RCSC website) 2020 election results: Dale Lehrer who received 840 votes, Sue Wilson who received 826 votes, and Karen McAdam who received 736 votes Two additional seats on the Board will also be filled as a result of this election: Steve Collins (674) will serve a 2-year term and Shelia Rooney (613) will serve for one year. Pathetic!!! less than 1000 votes. I did vote. I always vote. But I'm way way way in the minority of members.
You confirmed what I expected. 100 is pathetic. Apathy still rules. I would be curious as to how many people are members of the SunCity Orignal Board. I looked and can't find that information. So the problem is getting more people to be aware and participate, even if only reading what is posted. Monumental task. I posted some ideas on where to start (Apathy). Lets see if enough people want to get involved to get something going.
My in-laws lived here 50-years ago and I can still hear my mother-in-law saying "there's no use complaining, they do whatever they want anyway." The they in her rhetoric was the Board. There is nothing individually one can say or do that will change the outcome to your advantage. The RCSC spends our money to controls virtually all the information we members receive. It's a long haul up hill to overcome those odds. We must organize to have a focus, many voices speaking the same thing. We must fund ourselves, it will cost money to prevail. We must expend our energy to have any hope of succeeding.
Lots of thoughts on this thread but for now et me share this with you. As God is my witness, a guy knocked on my door yesterday and asked if we could chat. I've seen him around the neighborhood but had never been introduced to him. He asked if we could talk a little about an effort to recall the board president. I was shocked, but even more so when he told me he had stopped at the corporate offices and picked up a copy of the form for starting a recall. There's no point in hiding it, i'm sure once he left Lakeview the room was abuzz with the fact someone had done that. No names mentioned here but if this gets off the ground it will take a massive effort by people across Sun City. I told him in my opinion the board presidents actions on Sept 13th was shameful and that of unto itself was grounds to be removed. As has been noted on this site by several people and again in the Independent by another who knows Roberts Rules of Order, it wasn't her meeting to close. There should have been a motion and a second by the board members and then she could have flew off the stage in her hissy-fit. People were there to talk about their anger and reactions to what the board has done. That was the first step in the recall process, try and resolve it with the board face to face. She simply refused. Stay tuned, as this has the potential to get very interesting.
Being separate entities they really couldn't share the fee that way, but I don't see why as a courtesy to SCHOA and as a convenience to the membership there couldn't be a membership application included in with the annual assessment or a line added like AZ does with taxes where you can choose to donate. RCSC donates to various Sun City orgs. so the little bit of extra work that might help make SCHOA more successful and representative could be viewed as their donation....
A simple and good suggestion. However I think RSCS and SCHOA are Frenemies. It won't happen, in my opinion. Common Sense is something else that has seems to be fading away in today's society. The gray area on so many subjects has become huge.
But, if you're not a member of SCHOA what gives them the right to go onto the private property of a non-member, pull your weeds, then back-charge you?
It is an interesting suggestion SCJ. Don't hold your breath, it will never happen. They work together as much as they need to to comply with the filings for compliance with the yearly requirements to meet the Fair Housing Standards Act. SCHOA has to be able to document they have not fallen below the 80% threshold of residents under the age of 55, and the RCSC helps them in that task. The RCSC used to put together a new hire packet (i suspect they still do) and there would often be a piece supplied by SCHOA.
It's not an issue of rights. Its probably more common sense. I wouldn't want to be your neighbor, if you let your yard go to ruin. If you are a snowbird, that's an additional issue. We all have a responsibility to maintain our property per the deed restrictions. The only legal resource is filing suit. Way too expensive and time consuming for just weeds and cleanup. It would be better to just clean up your yard. However I would approach you first. If I had contact information, I would reach out to you if you are out of town for an extended period (aka snowbird). If I get no response, I can sue you, or pull your weeds myself, or contact SCHOA. I am a member and appreciate what SCHOA does. SCHOA does a lot for this community (members and non-members). You need to have respect for your neighbors. I doubt SCHOA did not try to reach out first. It probably was a bad enough situation, over an extended period of time. I would assume that due to no response they chose to clean up the yard. If it was serious enough that there was some cost to clean things up, I would expect them to send you a bill. You are the irresponsible party; not responding to requests to clean up your property. You are disrespecting the community. You are violating the CC&Rs .Worst case SCHOA would not get the reimbursement. But it was probably more cost effective than the time, resources and money to sue you. AND SCHOA did your neighbors a great service. SCHOA does work with people who truly cannot afford the cleanup. They partner with other community resources to help the needy. They don't just go out and play the property police. They take their role seriously and respect the entire community. SCHOA adds significant value to Sun City. They help keep our neighborhoods beautiful and our property values high.
Well said MW, folks that are incapable of paying to have their yards cleaned-up get assistance. That was one of two programs we started when we rebuilt SCHOA. Both have evolved well over time. The second was the one FYI i think was talking about. If a property is empty and falls into disarray, several letters are sent to the absentee owner. After several attempts (i think it is like 4 letters) they will go in and clean up a property and file lien on it for their costs and administrative work. Most of the time owners finally realize the cost to hire someone to go in and do it is way cheaper than the hard way through SCHOA. The neighbors loved the program when we instituted it, but in reality there were only a handful of times we did it. The bigger question regarding weeds and condition of property and whether you are a member or not is directly related to the fact the deed restrictions you sign at point of purchase have a copy of the CC&R's with them. When you buy, you agree to comply. I think the first time that was tested in a court of law was around the late 70's or early 80's. The judge ruled SCHOA indeed has standing and that has been upheld almost every step of the way. The only time there was an issue was when SCHOA overstepped what the CC&R's called for. The precedent has been established and owners seldom fight it. It's simply easier to hire a gardener and clean up your dumpy yards. Hope that helps.
