Card-holders...WTF?????????

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Feb 26, 2021.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I will keep this short and to the point. I watched the RCSC meeting from yesterday and listened as the gm continually referred to us (the members) as "card-holders." All i can say is thank God DEVCO and the gang didn't reduce those buying here in Sun City to some kind of financial commodity. It would have died before it ever got started.

    Just curious...how many of you see yourselves as "card-holders?"
     
  2. suncityjack

    suncityjack Active Member

    I have noticed that commodification of us for years and felt it too. It has been disheartening but perhaps RCSC can revert back to a bottom-up structure if the search committee for the new gm hires someone more appropriate.
     
  3. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I may be a cardholder but I am first a member cardholder. I also watched the meeting video and totally agree with Dale that all meetings should be open and recorded. Slipping back to the days of backroom discussions and motions being passed without discussion was so frustrating. This meeting was so informational because we actually got to watch the interaction of members and a bit of explaining as to the reasoning behind their votes. I could not in good conscience vote to again return to private decision-making meetings and perhaps that would cause this issue to be revisited by the Legislature.

    Did you watch the Election Committee meeting video? Present were 3 Board Members, a RCSC employee appointed as Secretary and 3 Committee Members. A bit off balance....eh?
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I didn’t watch aggie, but i will. The bigger question is: Is there any truth to the rumor the current GM is in the room during the interview process, but not all of the board members? If true it couldn’t be more back-asswards.

    I like words a lot scj and “commodification” is exceptional. We are now a commodity for the RCSC. Gotta love the “card-holder” from two meetings ago who looked straight-away at the board members and asked; “who is representing us?” I guess as “card-holders,” we don’t need to be represented. We simply exist to pay the bills.

    Anyone else notice it appears as if the SunViews is now going to be emailed to us as an electronic version and copies will be available at the rec centers. Maybe it’s a good idea, maybe not. I just don’t recall seeing a board meeting where this was discussed and voted on by the board...does anyone remember seeing it or is this just another general manager decision the board has abdicated to her?
     
  5. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    There are 3 POS that need to go, one of them didn't show up to the meeting. Must have been upset that their ideas were a joke and got slammed down her throat. Loud mouth who sits in chair one, and the purple retread. Hiding behind closed doors to make policy is wrong. IMHO, hiring outside of Sun City will be a huge mistake.
     
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Rather than being caustic to those on the board, i find myself more appreciative they give of their time to run. That said, i do find it distressing when openings happen, rather than selecting those who failed to get enough votes, they immediately turn to retreads rather than taking on people who wanted to be on the board.

    They do it under the guise of filling vacancies with “experienced” people, but to be blunt, that’s just pure bullshit. The reality is they are filling positions with people who will vote the way they want. Control is incredibly important to them, which is exactly why we are in the position we are in.

    We have stagnated as both a community and as an organization. The GM has been there too long and her agenda has driven the bus. She argues she works for the board, but as i have been a part of it and continued to watch from a distance, clearly she is the determining factor at the end of the day.

    Sun City, in its early years, we always guided by the board, committees and the community at large. The GM simply ran the day to day operations. When she was hired, they (the board) started to relinquish that authority and in trade off, their work-load was lightened. For better or worse, it’s where we are.

    Now the only question is; when she leaves will it be more of the same or will we see a rebirth of that sense of community that made us so successful?
     
    IndependentCynic likes this.
  7. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    They removed the job posting for GM from the RCSC website. It should be all board members must attend the interview for this position. After they get candidate's to choose from, a special meeting should be scheduled for ALL homeowners to watch live either in person or on a Zoom platform with no questions barred. The homeowners should be the one to choose the best person for the job with a term limit of some sort.
     
  8. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    It will more likely more of the same, as she probably had the Asst. GM named as her successor.

    It would appear to this writer the same old sham the GM has been perpetuating will continue, and she will make sure it continues. What better choice for her and her select board members to choose than the one groomed specifically by the GM herself.

    What the real shame is, the members have no idea how good it could be with a good leader in place, and involvement by the people themselves. Most feel they have been written out of the equation, and no longer have any say, which is really true.
     
    BPearson likes this.
  9. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Do you remember posting this Bill? It was May of 2019 when the new open meetings were just beginning:

    "Having open meetings was a good first step. Now we will see if they are willing to buck the GM who has always liked the safety of removing the power from the floor and putting it in the hands of a few."

    It appears that the BOD is now backing off from its pledge to have items discussed in the open meetings rather they would like to hold planning meetings behind closed doors. This flies in the face of all the legal battles over Title 33 and may just cause us to revisit that circus. I hope the motion by Rich Hoffer regarding "meetings" is voted down. We members should see these discussions as it is our money being spent and our access to amenities that is affected by Board decisions.
     
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I remember all too well aggie; it is why i stay away from all things RCSC. My efforts simply left me frustrated. Now our futures will be dictated by the pending dilemma with water on the golf courses and converting to desert landscaping. It's what happens when there is little no planning and failing to involve the community. There was never a doubt as to why they went to "open meetings," the court case was the catalyst and they were doing it for the optics.

    The next several months will be interesting but as Cm pointed out, it sure looks and feels like more of the same.
     
  11. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    After doing some lengthy reading, to include the court case and Arizona Revised Statutes, it would appear it is in the RCSC's best interest to not have the members identified as "members". See, members have rights as defined through various laws. "Card Holders" are not specified in any of the legal mumbo jumbo.

    It appears the RCSC is heading in a direction of not having members.

    10-3603. No requirement of members

    A corporation is not required to have members.

    10-3705. Notice of meeting

    A. Except as provided in section 33-2208, a corporation shall notify members of the date, time and place of each annual, regular and special members' meeting at least ten days but not more than sixty days before the meeting date. So meeting dates must be made known to members.

    Again, there is that mention of the word members. As noted above, "members" must be notified of meetings. In reading the court decision on Title 33, we may not be an association, but we, the members, have the voting power to make life difficult for the Board and the RCSC. Proxies are still a viable option and may very well need to be better researched.

    Now that my eyes have rolled into the back of my head, I will let this task go for now. I am quite sure we need to keep open meetings and hold the boards feet to the fire, and more importantly, the GM's.
     
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    So to be clear Carole, the Articles of Incorporation, states the purpose of the RCSC and here is it in it's entirety:
    Article III
    The general nature of the business in which the Corporation is engaged is as follows:

    To do anything and everything lawfully necessary in the interest of the Members of the Corporation, including, without limitation, the following:

    1. To establish and conduct a general social, cultural, recreational and amusement enterprise for the benefit of its Members and do anything lawfully necessary or convenient to accomplish such purpose, including, but not by way of limitation, to purchase, acquire, develop, sell, lease, own, operate, and manage theaters, playhouses, agricultural projects, riding stables and corrals, libraries, opera houses, golf courses, baseball and football games, tennis courts, dancing facilities, lawn bowling rinks, horseshoe pits, croquet courts, travel clubs, card games, shuffleboard, swimming pools, skating rinks, lecture and conference rooms, and facilities and equipment for such arts and crafts as ceramic work, sewing, woodworking, leathercraft, lapidary, photography, fine arts, jewelry, shellcraft, mosaics, etc., and any and all facilities necessary or incidental to accomplish the general purposes of the Corporation.

    2. To coordinate, implement, and aid the various recreational and social clubs which are now or which may become duly recognized as such by this Corporation.

    3. To promote cooperation in all matters of interest and benefit to the residents and/or homeowners of the area within the bounds set out in Article I, who become and remain Members of this Corporation.

    4. To contract, coordinate or operate, with other organizations, associations, corporations, or individuals in carrying out and conducting the activities and endeavors for which this Corporation is formed and in effecting the benefits and results sought to be gained.

    5. To purchase, lease, option, contract for or otherwise acquire, take, own, hold, exchange, sell, or otherwise dispose of, pledge, mortgage, hypothecate, encumber any and all classes of property necessary to the fulfillment and furtherance of the objects and purposes of the Corporation within the limits prescribed by law.

    6. To issue such notes, bonds, debentures, contracts, or other security or evidence of indebtedness upon such terms and conditions and in such manner and form as may be prescribed or determined by the Board of Directors, within the limitations prescribed by Article X hereof.

    7. To purchase, acquire, own, hold, sell, assign, transfer, mortgage, pledge or otherwise acquire, dispose of, hold or deal in the shares of stocks, bonds, debentures, notes or other security or evidence of indebtedness of this or any other corporation, association or individual, and to exercise all the rights, powers and privileges of ownership, including the right to vote thereon, to the same extent as a natural person might or could do.

    8. To lend or invest its funds, with or without security, upon such terms and conditions as shall be prescribed or determined by the Board of Directors in accordance with Article VIII, Section 7, of these Articles of Incorporation.

    9. To borrow money and to issue bonds, debentures, notes, contracts, and other evidences of indebtedness or obligation, and from time to time for any lawful purpose to mortgage, pledge, and otherwise charge any or all of its properties, property rights and assets to secure the payment thereof.

    10. To act as surety or guarantor, agent, trustee, broker, or in any other fiduciary capacity.

    11. To make and to perform contracts of every kind and description, and in carrying on its business, or for the purpose of attaining and furthering any of its objects, to do any and all things which a natural person might or could do, and which now or hereafter may be authorized by law, and in general, to do and perform such acts and things, and to have and exercise all the powers and to transact such business in connection with the foregoing objects as may be necessary and required.

    12. To do all and everything necessary, suitable, or proper for the accomplishment of any of the purposes or attainment of any of the objects herein above enumerated, either alone or in association or partnership with other corporations, firms, and individuals, as principals, agents, brokers, contractors, trustees, or otherwise, and, in general, to engage in any and all lawful business that may be necessary or convenient in carrying on the business of said Corporation and for the purposes pertaining thereto, and to do any and every other act or acts, thing or things, incidental to, growing out of, or connected with said business, or any part or parts thereof; the designation of any object or purpose therein shall not be construed to be a limitation for qualifications or in any manner to limit or restrict the purpose and objects of the Corporation.

    13. To transact any or all lawful business for which non-profit corporations may be incorporated under the laws of the State of Arizona and in pursuance thereof to exercise any or all powers granted to corporations in general under the laws of the State of Arizona.

    The foregoing purposes shall be construed as both objects and powers and the foregoing enumeration of specific purposes shall not be held to limit or restrict in any manner the powers of the Corporation.

    They can call us cardholders all they want, but we are Members by virtue of this document.
     
  13. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Scattered throughout the FAQ section and other sections there are mentions of what privileges "Members" have as opposed to Privilege Cardholders, Guests & Visitors. When the BOD refer to Cardholders with a broad stroke regarding policies & decision-making they are wrong. Privilege Cardholders cannot speak at BOD meetings or serve on committees. So, although we as a whole are referred to as Cardholders there is a big difference in our standing in the Corporation. Murky waters.

    This is taken from the FAQ section of the RCSC information portion on their website:

    I paid my fees as an owner, how do I become a Member?

    In accordance with the RCSC Corporate Bylaws the qualifications for Membership include the following:

    1. Be a Deeded Owner of a qualified Sun City AZ property;
    2. Be 55 years of age or older (or qualify under the spousal exemption); and,
    3. Occupy the Sun City AZ property as your primary Arizona residence unless your other Arizona residence is farther than seventy-five (75) miles from Sun City AZ in which case you must provide proof that you occupy the Sun City AZ residence as well.
    Additionally, Members must pay all required fees and execute an RCSC Facilities Agreement before receiving a Member Card. Should you meet the qualifications for a Member Card then please visit the Cardholder Services Office located in the Lakeview Center at 10626 W Thunderbird Blvd to have your picture taken and receive your card.
     
  14. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    The latest RCSC BOD meeting is up on their website. How they don't grasp that we want to see the process where they are given information, education and advice about issues is beyond understanding. The BOD coming into the meeting with no discussion and a snap vote to pass motions were/are painful. The poor guy who gave the nearly 30 minute presentation on whisper ball could have been spared by telling him up front that the BOD would just refer him to the Asst. General Manager. Those wishing to speak after him had a long wait but their comments were good.

    It is interesting to read the written summary on the RCSC website as it doesn't state any of the issues brought up in Member Comments. It's good to see more Members spoke at this meeting although it is still not as welcoming as the Board/Member Exchange Meetings where we were all physically seated on the same level.
     
  15. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Great comments aggie and i noted board members called us members and the gm called us card holders. Her push from the day she got here is to reduce our capacity as owners of the community to those who simply pay their fees. One board member took exception to members questioning their transparency and openness when she should have been embarrassed by the fact they finally admitted the board has been holding work sessions the entire time they have pretended to only having open meetings. If you think i am blowing smoke, listen carefully to Rich's comments when engaging in a debate with Dale.
     
  16. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    It seems to me some of us use "card-holder" with a right-to-use connotation -- much like a ticket holder at an amusement park -- and "Member" to imply a sense of control and ownership. In the context of the RCSC today I think we are just card-holders. We are members of clubs, but simply card-holders for the amenities like pools, golf, etc.

    My love-hate relationship with the RCSC reminds me of when I belonged to a commercial GYM... I joined and paid my fees. I was issued a membership card, so I guess I was a "card-holder". The Gym corporation set the hours, the equipment, rules, the music played, everything. They only responded to customer suggestions when membership/revenue declined, because that threatens the viability of their business. Eventually I grew to dislike going to the Gym as it had morphed into a different place than I had joined. I quit. Many of my friends there quit also. The Gym eventually realized they needed to change their management, equipment, culture or go out of business. Most of us had already joined a different gym when they came to their senses.

    The RCSC operates analogous to the GYM in many ways, but the RCSC has no financial motivation to change their ways. The RCSC is funded via mandatory assessments independent of whether members are happy or not If I quit (like I did the Gym) the RCSC is unaffected because they don't have to replace my revenue stream -- instead the onus is on me to find a buyer who becomes my paying replacement. Thus, the RCSC has no business incentive to cooperate with members. Without leverage to incent the RCSC to change, can we are really be anything more than just card-holders?
     
  17. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Fair analogy ic, except it isn't. I posted Article 3 of the Articles of Incorporation for a reason. Your gym owner, was just that, an owner wanting to make a profit off of your membership. The RCSC is a non-profit and in fact their very existence is to serve the community. And; it is exactly why the relationship has become lopsided. For too many years the gm, staff and board has acted as if we are here to simply pay for what they want to do. Oops, not how the community was built and why it was as successful as it was/is.

    I often question myself why i have pulled away from the internal governance and devoted so much of my time to the museum. This summer while i enveloped most of my waking hours to telling the story by using our amazing collections and with anecdotal stories, i came to understand and appreciate the idea that we were supposed to fail except those buying here wouldn't let it. When Meeker pushed for ownership and a sense of community as the tenets we were built on, he insured we would endure long after DEVCO left.

    Unless and until people get their head around our history, little will change. It's why i give as many tours as i can. Our history is truly our path forward.
     
  18. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Bill, I don't think the analogy is completely invalid -- I know what the Articles, BL's and Policies say, and I also know how they've evolved over the last 20-years. My gym analogy reflected what I perceive as the "reality" of things, not the legality of things. The RCSC has become overly comfortable rewriting the BL's, etc. ad nauseam to keep unwanted member influence in check. Unlike the Gym analogy, where members could exert revenue pressure, the only recourse we have with the RCSC is via electing Board members. Financial pressure isn't possible since their funding is locked via deed and covenant restrictions. So as long as the Board/GM does "just enough" to avoid an outright member revolt they can keep running RCSC however they choose, regardless what the majority of SC residents want and/or what's best for SC in the long term. Power begeting power.
     
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    On that we agree ic.
     

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