One of my pet peeves...

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Did anyone watch the potential candidates video where those interested in running got to ask questions from current and previous board members? I though it was pretty good, a nice switch from the survey they have been using past years.

    One thing that was said has been sticking in my craw. Rich Hoffer pointed out the board is elected by the membership but once they are seated, their allegiance is to the corporation. He tried to clean it up, but in my humble opinion fell far short.

    I am one of those odd ducks who reads our documents. I have done threads on them in years gone by and most find them boring as hell. The reality is, we are governed by them. They all follow a sequence with the Articles of Incorporation as the basis for said governance. Everything else, By-laws and Rules and Regulations have to coincide with the Articles.

    With that out of the way, i went to the Articles of Incorporation posted on the RCSC website. Article 3 says this:
    Article III
    The general nature of the business in which the Corporation is engaged is as follows:

    To do anything and everything lawfully necessary in the interest of the Members of the Corporation, including, without limitation, the following:

    There are 12 listed items after that, you can find them here.

    I posted this because all too often board and management will point out the corporation and the membership are 2 different things. I would argue, the sole purpose of the corporation's existence starts with and ends with the best interests of the membership.

    The Articles and the language clarifying that sometimes get lost in how they want to function rather than how they choose to function.
     
  2. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    I remember when I was first elected to the board, during the learn to be a board member training, we were all told our loyalties were to the corporation. I found it so odd then, I still remember the statement to this day.

    It is sad the members feel they have no real position anymore within the corporation. It is the RCSC or nothing and the amended documents all lend themselves to a mindset of the corporation comes first. If there are no members then there is no RCSC, as the corporation was established to benefit the members. Gosh, I wish there was a wholesale way to get the membership involved and realize this is their organization, not the other way around.

    Too bad there isn't someone with enough time to gather proxies and take them to the next "yearly" meeting and take back what is rightly the members benefits. This would surely get the membership noticed and involved, don't you think?
     
  3. suncityjack

    suncityjack Active Member

    Been involved in many boards and nonprofits and in a nutshell the norm was always: the members elect the board to represent their interests, the board sets the policies to ensure and advance those interests, the staff manages the organization to "make it so." The flow is always bottom to top. Haven't seen it work that way here....
     
    carptrash likes this.
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    It is disheartening to watch the evolution from a community built on and around a sense of ownership to one where we are simply property assessment payers who get to use the amenities because we send them our yearly fees. That mentality has helped cripple/change the community dynamic. It's like the difference between an owner of a house to a renter. Nothing wrong with renting, but owning creates/instills an entirely different relationship.

    Those early years from start-up to build-out (1960-1978) everything was about forging the ownership mentality. DEVCO turned the centers over to the community within the first year or two of being built. Oddly enough, when DEVCO left to build Sun City West, the RCSC worked tirelessly to encourage ownership by the community at large. Huge numbers voted on massive candidate options. Most ran on platforms, some being frugal with others being more aggressive. It heightened the sense of ownership and pride in the community.

    I spent a good portion of my work years in organized labor. It was almost always a top down structure where the membership was minimized and the leadership was the ultimate authority. I hated it. I came to understand the failures of top down structures as each year we became less significant in workers lives. We simply had it backward. When we bought here i was inspired by the history and a construct where the residents were the owners and were responsible for our success or failure. It near on killed me to watch as we "evolved."

    Unless and until we move back to an ownership mentality, we will be caught in a structure where with each passing day "card-holders" will only matter when it come time to pay their property assessment.
     
  5. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    When I look up "proxies" on the web, especially in regards to annual meetings, all of the articles state the corporation publishes them in enough time for the members to be able to utilize them for the upcoming meeting. I have never seen the RCSC publish or even offer proxies for the members to use.

    My feeling is the way to get the membership more involved is to make the "corporation" a member-centric organization. It feels as if the only way to do this is with enough proxies signed and delivered during an annual meeting to demand the quorum be lowered, have a forensic audit done to prove the monies and the activities are indeed self sufficient, and place a search committee for a new GM. I know, pretty bold ideas, but without a clear point to request a proxy, why bother.

    So, how does one get proxies for the RCSC annual meeting? Create your own and float them out there? Is there a standard form, as I can't find one anywhere on the RCSC website? I am not working at the moment, so I have a few minutes to research some of this for a change. Sorry, but I need the entire picture drawn for me, as I am not finding any resources in regards to the RCSC anywhere.

    Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
     
  6. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    Good afternoon this question is for current and former board members: who has a mailing list with everybody's email address on it where each and every person can be notified about a board meeting in the future where a majority of snowbirds will be back in sin City. You could title it a must-attend important knowledgeable meeting and then subject matter. let them know the importance of everybody being there so you have a voice to discuss issues and make the board members answer and be accountable right there on the spot. You could cover many many issues for many many hours and who knows possibly and I would say the percentage would be pretty good that you would get the needed number of members to attend multiple meetings only if the agenda is organized.
     
  7. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Thanks Say What, but I doubt asking for help from former board members to collect proxies for the annual meeting will get me too very far.

    I have found some excellent examples of simply proxies on line, simple enough to make with the required information. The date of the meeting is set per the bylaws, so getting the date correct for the meeting is not a problem. Getting the proxies out to the membership is a concern, perhaps paying for an ad in the Independent would get enough proxies collected to be of value. That with a small article as to why the proxies are needed from the membership may be a way to go. I don't know.

    I did write to Ann and ask her advice, but no answer. Can't say that I blame her.

    Would just need a practical reason to state for the need for the proxies. I am still thinking on that one, plus a few other loose ends, but there is nothing yet that I have found which says it can't be done.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  8. CM, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but wasn’t there something around 2013 or so where Fuerher Jan presented the Board in a work session a motion that basically outlawed proxies? Seems that she was worried that Anne of Cleavage, BP, CM or your most obedient servant, Geoffrey, would actually secure enough proxies to ferment a revolution or at least an annual meeting. Not sure but somehow seems stuck in a neuron. Tell me if I am wrong.
     
  9. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    I thought the reason for the quorum number being so high was because of the fear of proxies? So no proxies, eh? Makes sense, one more way to keep control away from the membership.
     
  10. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Article XIII
    The Members of the Corporation shall be provided with the opportunity to vote by proxy in:

    a. Amending the Articles of Incorporation

    b. Members amending the Bylaws of the Corporation

    c. The election of Directors*

    d. Any other matter requiring an act of the members
     
  11. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Now that it has been established members can vote by proxy, especially at the annual meeting, as (d) clearly states any matter requiring an act of the members. That would be having enough members and proxy votes to actually have a meeting and make the membership the focus of the meeting. Agenda items such as lowering the quorum, getting a forensic audit to prove where the monies are really going, especially in golf, and perhaps a few other items you folks can suggest. Any ideas for making the meeting member focused?
     
  12. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Bill, I am sorry I stepped all over your thread. My bad
     
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Nothing to be sorry about C. I just have given up hope people know or care about what the RCSC does. You used to be able to get petitions signed on RCSC property but the GM changed that as well.
     
  14. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    I think they do care, but Covid 19 and the stupid ass of a president we have is the rule of the day. I haven't given up hope, as I am sure many others haven't either
     
  15. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Hey there Sun City folks, how are you all doing tonight? Scorcher weather right now, too bad high temps don't kill Covid, to our knowledge anyway.

    We know masks help prevent the spread of the disease, as well as good hygiene and distance. Was reading in the news two things, the vaccine is in its final stages of testing, so there is a good chance to see it available before the end of the year and now Florida is the number one state for Covid. Not something any aspires to, but it does show Arizonans are beating this back, slowly but surely.

    Changing the subject, can I ask what you all look forward to doing once this is a horrible memory and masks are a thing of the past? Anything special? It is always a good thing to look at the positive every once in a while, and we have been dwelling on disease and politics pretty heavy. What looks good in your future? I would love to hear it and have it shared with all of our Sun City TOSC friends.

    Thank you for your time and attention, as always, it is greatly appreciated.
     
  16. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I have no sense it will end anytime soon Carole. We are still in the first wave and this fall if a second wave hits, then what? The RCSC has tied their can to Ducey (not being critical), so we ultimately are linked to his actions. At least he is now acting based on data rather than making the president look good. I have lots of Canadian friends and here's a scary stat: Arizona has 10,000 more cases than all of Canada and they have 5 times the population. Think about that.

    To your point, i am excited by how and what the museum is doing this summer. We are revamping our exhibits and looking at showcasing Sun City. As the Community That Changed A Nation, we need to show people how and why that happened. We also are looking at the long game which includes the possibility we will not be open come fall. If that's the case, we are planning to expand our web presence and running zoom classes for members with buy-in for non. Virtual tours of the museum will be added and we are working now on incorporating exhibits located outside the building.

    Someday this nightmare will end, in the meantime, the Del Webb Sun Cities Museum is moving forward. The good news is COVID 19 forced us to accelerate our 5 year strategic plan and expand our reach. I am excited by that and think those living here will be delighted with the new look.
     
  17. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I remember a saying that goes something like: "Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery & today is a present." I'm not sure I can plan anything going forward even though it sounds quite pessimistic when written down here. We are trapped by the heat, COVID and the barrage of campaign ads.

    It doesn't seem to me that Ducey has gotten on board with the severity of COVID. If he ever requires masks indoor everywhere without excepting political or religious gatherings it would mean he acknowledges the dangers of spreading the virus. He'd also give the impression that he knows how serious this is if he ever ramps up testing to everyone and demands for more federal personnel to help our medical staff. People waiting hours in line in this heat and then waiting another week for results is not acceptable. We are not slowing the spread or rate of serious cases because the State Health Department fudges with the figures. They use a 7 day average, there is such a backlog of tests not reported, test results are low over the weekends and the rate of testing is far below what should be done. If all stats were based on the percentage of cases, deaths and hospitalizations per capita we would be solidly the worst.

    Going forward? It would just be good to be able to meet friends at a restaurant for a meal. Go to the library and browse. Get a flight somewhere to visit family & friends. Participate in sports. Simple things that seem far away right now.
     
  18. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    I have to agree with it not ending soon. The Spanish Flu took over two years to eradicate itself and this was through efforts such as masks, and keeping distance. The totals offered as for total deaths from that epidemic range from 3,000.000 to 6,000,000 total. The record keeping in 1918 through 1921 seems sporadic, yet here we are today, and there is no clear definition for the country to be doing a viable count of those sick and those deceased. And of those deceased, how many were really Covid and not Covid related, there is a difference.

    I was looking at doing a proxy gathering for the 2021 annual meeting, but I don't think there will be one. The second wave has yet to hit, and China just announced a new type of pneumonia which is deadlier then the Covid. Hopefully they keep it in China, and the US finds a good tracking system to track those coming into the country who may be ill or from an area where illness is prevalent. What we have now is a free for all, and no logical way to control the spread of this disease. So much for the orange guy in Washington.

    The museum progress sounds great, always in motion to keep the museum attractive and relevant. Aggie, I so agree to be able to return to traveling and visiting. We had planned a 10 day cruise to Italy for 2021, not going now, don't trust this disease and any other outbreaks. Love cruising but not while sick.

    Thank you folks for the feedback, it is great to hear from everyone about their ideas for the future as well as the ideas we have to return to normal some day. I was working and loving it, but it too has come to the demise of the Covid. Some people were selected to work from home, those with seniority. That would not be me.

    You folks are the best to take your time and answer me, it was truly my pleasure to read your comments.
     
  19. suncityjack

    suncityjack Active Member

    Am returning to Bill's first sentence of the thread: Yes, I saw it and thought it a good format.
    Now onto Carole's proxies part that somehow I am not catching. First, what do it mean in this context? You say, "When I look up "proxies" on the web, especially in regards to annual meetings, all of the articles state the corporation publishes them in enough time for the members to be able to utilize them for the upcoming meeting. I have never seen the RCSC publish or even offer proxies for the members to use." I'm sorry but I just don't get what they are or what you are suggesting, so would you break it down into the most basic explanation for me? Anything bringing more power back to the people I'd be in favor of....Thank you.
     
  20. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Good day suncityjack. I will do my best to describe what a proxy is, how it is used, and why I feel it would benefit the members of the RCSC.

    A proxy is a simple form, filled out by the member, authorizing another member to vote at the annual meeting in their stead. So, when it is stated, year after year, there are not enough members in attendance to hold the annual meeting, had proxies been issued, and collected by a designated member, those proxies can then be utilized to count, one for one, as if a member has shown up and is present to vote at the annual meeting. So, if, for example, I collected 600 proxies from members who are not going to attend the annual meeting, but do want to have their voice heard, I would present them at the meeting and those proxies now count as if 600 additional members have arrived to be counted and vote. It is a way to have the membership represented at the annual meeting and know their voice was counted for any and all issues to be heard or need to be brought up at the annual meeting.

    Giving a proxy to another member means you are entrusting them to act in good faith on your behalf. After all, you signed your name to a piece of paper allowing this other person to represent your best interests. If, for example, I said I want to use your proxy to achieve a quorum so we can conduct membership business, that is what the proxy is to be used for. Should I also say I want to use the proxy to lower the quorum, ask for a forensic accounting of the books, and ask for a panel to be assembled to look for a new general manager, I am not being specific as to what kind of business it is I want to conduct, and your proxy would be used as a vote. If you did not agree with the items I want to tackle at the annual meeting, then you could refuse to sign a proxy or add your own verbiage at the bottom of the proxy, stating you only are voting for a specific outcome, such as the lowering of the quorum. As the person granting the proxy, you would be in the drivers seat as to who votes on your behalf, and what items, if any, you would like to see addressed.

    I feel it would benefit the members to have proxies as the quorum is too high and we can't ever get enough members to attend the meeting. There is business, such as the items mentioned above, that affect the members, and the board and the management team need to take seriously the needs of the members as well as their wishes for the RCSC and its future. If asking for a committee for a new GM, then there should be good reason why the board feels they won't do it, after all, the membership is supposed to be the driver of things deemed valid and brought to the attention of the board. That is their function, it is not to the corporation as most would like to believe. The board should be listening to the membership, making valid decisions which support the membership, then directing the work of the GM, based upon what the board has deemed to be an appropriate direction for the GM to follow. It is not supposed to be top-down management, but rather a collaborative effort between the members and the board, in unison, to mutually support and agree on items to be added to the agenda, discuss, vote on, and approve or disapprove, and explain why. The BOD is supposed to be supportive of member requests, not just pass them off to the GM and let the decision lie there. Having proxies would allow for an annual meeting where the members will be in the drivers seat and can then put in direct requests, which the board will have to consider, and be answerable to the members.

    I know this is a lengthy reply, and I am also sure there are others who may also be able to add more for further definition. I truly hope this helped explain the role of the proxy and why it would be benefit at an annual meeting. There is a convoluted process used by the board to decide if they want to accept the recommendations by the members who present the proxies, but as long as nothing truly unreasonable is presented, there should be no reason for anyone's proxy be deemed invalid nor the request to out of line.

    Hope this helps, if not please feel free to let me know and I will clarify if possible.
     

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