Doing the Right Thing.

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks to those who started threads. With as slow as the site has been i was thinking i would have to start a new one every third day or so. I will put some historical information up in the coming weeks, but for now, this has been bugging me for the past three days.

    I've struggled with how to temper my remarks regarding the RCSC and their actions. I said early on. it was a tough call. I followed Sun City West where they took down everything but golf and where they freely admitted they left it open for the financial sake of the community.

    I watched the Sun City Grand open meeting where their actions were tempered as club presidents and residents shared their thoughts. It was the best of all simply because it was inclusive of those wanting a voice. They stopped all club activities but kept open outdoor venues. I have no idea if that is better or worse than Sun City and Sun City West where the only thing open is golf. It's just different.

    Sun City had no choice once both those communities acted. I found no fault in it being too soon or too late. I think they could have done a better job of explaining their actions. Several lawn bowlers asked me "why is golf open and throwing lawn bowls not okay?" I had no answer other than to say, that was the decision they made. And when i was asked if they could, i told them the right thing to do was to stay off the greens.

    I've followed comments on the website Nextdoor. There are lengthy threads about the good, the bad and the ugly regarding the closing. I have chimed in a time or two, but mostly because there are those telling others it's their god-given right to do as they please. Maybe it is, but shoving it down others throats is shameful. In fact, just minutes ago i got down right rude.

    Anyway, everything should come down to "doing the right thing." I watched in horror the other day as fencing went up around the lawn bowling greens and the Sun Bowl. It makes Sun City look like a third world country. It's tacky. I elected to keep my mouth shut, seemed like the right thing to do.

    Then we got the email from the RCSC yesterday and the tone was less than friendly. No idea who wrote it, but given the tension and strain everyone is under, it would have seemed a time to try and engage residents in a more civil, constructive manner. There's ways to make those living here feel like they are part of the solution, not the problem.

    This post has gotten long enough for starters, but i have a couple of questions for the board and the management about "doing the right thing," and will address them in my next post. For now, curious how those of you living here felt about the email Friday and the look of the fencing around some of our properties?

    We all need do the right thing, especially given what we are living with around us and to us.
     
  2. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    From the Mar 27 RCSC email --
    LOL, Well that squashes me performing ad-hoc concerts at the Sun Bowl when I walk the dog. Guess I'll have to keep it to singing in the shower. ;)
     
  3. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    Well first of all Bill lawn bowling brings in zero revenue they would have to bring out equipment which who knows who would touch them and some of the lawn bowlers have been rude and some of the almost threatening. You had your board time and your only agendas failed one thing that you will always be bitter about. The rangers need to disperse the gathering that are happening at the golf course. Be well! This is not a hoax as some idiots believe. Fox news is the scurge of the world.
     
  4. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Glad to see you stop by and respond Say What. Seriously, as an insider you would be in a better position to comment than most. Because tomorrow i will ask some tough questions of the board and i suspect by then you will be in hiding. Before you go though, how about answering this question: what were my "failed agenda's?" And if i was bitter, why did i agree to serve on the long range planning committee? BTW, l did leave it because you all freely admitted your role was to simply act as the GM's rubber stamp. That wasn't how Sun City was built nor why it survived and flourished.

    Which is the perfect segue into your comments regarding how much you hate the fact i use history when i write. So let's start with this reminder: DEVCO in conjunction with the RCSC insured two aspects of Sun City amenities be self-sufficient. One was ten pin bowling, the other was golf. They did that because the potential for them to deplete the community resources was substantial. The agreement was their yearly revenue had to match their yearly expenditures. They were not to be subsidized. In all other cases, that wasn't the understanding. It's why i have said if we were ever going to truly know if that's the case (budget neutral), they would need conduct a forensic audit of the books back to when the gm was hired. You up for that?

    As long as you brought up lawn bowls (twice now), the greens are expensive to maintain. That's why i was interested in seeing us convert to all artificial. The challenge was we had a lawn bowler who has become the patron saint of bowling. She struck an agreement with the RCSC to keep grass greens and she would donate to bowling greens and the clubs. To date she's spent near on three quarters of a million dollars on improvements and upgrades. And as a board member, young know any such donation to the club becomes the property of the RCSC. Then of course is that pesky little thing the bowling clubs weren't obligated to be budget neutral like golf and ten pin bowling. And for the record 100 or more lawn bowlers have bought in Sun City simply because of the greens. They have added to the PIf with every purchase of a home sold.

    In that i doubt you will answer my questions, let me help you out. When i ran for the board, then President Vance Coleman asked me what my agenda was? I told him to leave Sun City a better place. He said, no really and i responded, no really , that's my agenda. Once on the board i wanted it to be more community driven. More open and transparent. It's why i adopted the signature i use: Sun City=Community before Corporation. People before Politics. My real regret was we didn't actively pursue the Lakes Club. It would have changed Sun City in so many ways. But i am interested in your views in my "failures" and given your previous work history you should have no problem articulating that.

    Finally, at least we agree on something. COVID 19 is the real deal. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool. As a heads up, that's why my questions tomorrow will be of interest.
     
  5. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Arizona on a whole is so backwards lead by Ducey and its lack of preventative measures filters down to localities. Hair salons, nail salons, barbershops, gun shops & golf courses all OK? Not for me. It's scary enough for me just to keep food in the house 24/7. Does it seem to you that many part-time residents have already left our area? It is so eerily quiet including the normal emergency traffic on their way to calls & the hospital. Maybe the current population of Sun City is using common sense regarding staying in place. I say common sense although it seems to be absent in AZ leadership.

    The RCSC BOD is not treating the members fairly. There is such a small population of Sun City that golfs and it also attracts outside golfers. Revenue? Do we really need all 8 courses open to golfers & the public?? All of our amenities are closed which severely limits activities that can be done safely. I have seen so many more people out walking the neighborhoods which can be done and observes the social distancing practices.

    My suggestion? Leave one course location open in each division to golfers(Willow, Riverview & North) and let Sun City residents walk the rest of them. No need to check IDs, RCSC cards or any other form of restriction. If monitoring shows there are abuses such as walking on greens it can be shut down immediately. PLEASE consider this! We deserve some amenities that are safe to use just as much as the golfers. Soon there will be maintenance on the courses so this would be a temporary feature that would show that the RCSC cares about its majority of members.....non-golfers. We need to balance out the negativity.

    Phew....time to walk a few laps in my backyard!
     
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Great intro to my next comments aggie. I was asked the other day whether we were allowing others to come in from outside Sun City and i had to question; why would we? And of course you hit the nail on the head; revenue. I was impressed with the steps the RCSC took to try and limit touching common items on the golf course. It made sense. I have noted in driving by, more folks walking with pull carts. That too is good. They also relaxed the rules regarding the number of cars in a foursome or fivesome in an effort to keep one person to a golf car. Then i started thinking, when a couple of guys drive in from Peoria or Surprise, do they rent one car or two? Does it matter? What would be the right thing to do?

    With all of that said, my question for Say What or anyone else from the board or management; what is our current policy regarding outside play?

    In an earlier thread, Say What alluded to all of us "golf haters." I ignored it, but this morning went searching for the thread i wrote in 2018 entitled "Is Sun City A Golfing Community?" I put the link up, not that SW will pay any attention but the history of golf is important. From day one, golf played an integral role in the community. There's no question golf courses helped sell a lot of homes over the years. The courses were paid for by lot premiums around the golf courses (much like the centers were paid for by an add-on when DEVCO sold you your home).

    The simple reality is DEVCO had no interest in owning and running them into perpetuity. Each center was deeded over to the community within a year of their opening. The golf courses were an entirely different animal. It took almost till build out for an agreement to be reached. In spite of the popularity of golf courses and their importance to the community, they never got much higher than 15% of those living here as players. That's why when an agreement was finally struck, it included the caveat they had to be cost neutral. The yearly cost of play was to be the actual costs to run them equaling the total revenue raised.

    The bad news was as they raised costs, they saw less play which in kind increased the next years cost per round. They mitigated that somewhat by investing PIF dollars into the courses for improvements. My frustrations were our budgeting process was also tweaked to avoid having to raise costs. How could that happen? Simple. When you have 9 board members and 5 or 6 of them are golfers the discussions never get there. 15% of the community are golfers, while 60- 75% of the board are golfers. Throw in a gm who is golf-fixated and the answers are readily apparent.

    Hell, i can live with all of it. Those that get elected, decide. My bigger issue was we ignored the history and refused to understand the tenets the community was built under. And that's exactly why the board and management want to dispatch any reference to our history. Sun City was built on the basis of community first, not the corporation. We've moved away from that construct and the corporation has become the end all be all. We simply become dues payers who get to use "their" stuff. All of which makes aggie's point more painful; apparently we are also letting those from outside the community use our golf courses while we are told to blissfully enjoy walking the streets.

    The next question will be the true bugger, but that's for next time.
     
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  7. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I see Say What has gone missing in action. Hopefully she is doing good. I had intended to ask a really ugly question, but the more i thought about it, the more i questioned whether it was/is the "right thing to do." I periodically visit Nextdoor, but try and stay away from the banter. Clearly people are both upset and supportive of the RCSC's decision.

    I said before they did it, they had no choice. Closing was absolutely the "right thing to do." The only question was would they follow Sun City West (closed everything but golf) or Sun City Grand (kept outdoor activities open but without club activities). I went to their site to see if Ducey's order yesterday changed anything but can't tell. It is curious to note they are still holding meetings via ZOOM. No matter which way they went, there were going to be people unhappy. I'd love to be rolling bowls but i understand why the closed the greens. Though i think the fencing looks tacky and the barricades on the lots are a bit much. Just my opinion.

    You may have noted in the last two emails from the RCSC, they relied heavily on Ducey's position that golf courses were an essential service as were barber shops and hair salons. Again, not my call and my life goes on no matter whether i agree or disagree. There's way more important stuff to be concerned about, like the daily death toll that is growing at a frightening pace. Which is why i am opting not to pose the question i was going to ask. I will simply say this: each and everyone including RSCS's management, board and member alike should be obligated to "do the right thing."

    It would be tragic to find out that wasn't the case. We'll see what happens because there are very few secrets in this community.
     
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  8. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    Was I dreaming? I thought I caught a news story on the 9:00 news last night on TV that said Sun City West was closing all golf courses as of April 14th? Can't find any info online to confirm this. Anyone else get wind of this?
     
  9. Adam560

    Adam560 Member

    It was announced on the TV news this morning.
     
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Now on the SCW website is the information they will close the courses effective April 14. They book one week in advance and will allow those booked to play but will take no new bookings after that date, from anyone. I noted in another thread Sun City Grand just changed their policy on no more outside golf play. I've read several articles from around the state and almost everyone is taking steps to maintain social distancing on the courses except when it comes to cart rentals. Most claimed they were recommending 1 person per cart, unless from the same family. Sadly, many were allowing those without carts to make their on decision on whether to ride together.

    The one thing that jumped out at me and frankly was no surprise was the fact both West and Grand were continuing meetings using ZOOM or one of the other options out there. Makes sense given the fact the community amenities are shut down doesn't preclude them from taking care of the business of running the community. Of course, they are well advanced on the use of technology so obviously they were more quickly able to adapt and embrace it.

    I started this thread for a purpose. In part because it is important for everyone to "do the right thing." Still waiting to see if that ever will be the case.
     
  11. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Interesting to note; Sun City West will be closing their golf courses for all play next week. They announced it yesterday but because they book tee times a week in advance, they are letting them play but taking no new reservations. I've tried to stay above the fray whether the courses being open is right or wrong. There are legitimate arguments both ways. With that caveat out of the way, here is a short cut from a story appearing in the Arizona Republic. I'm not sure if it is a misprint or it was intended to say what it said: "There have been reports of Sun City residents who have tested presumptively positive. However, the Sun City West golf course administration does not know if this includes golfers who recently played there."

    I found it odd, the reference to Sun City when the story was about Sun City West golf courses. You can read the rest of the article here.
     
  12. pegmih

    pegmih Well-Known Member

    I still can't figure out how to post a new thread. So I will post here!
    Yesterday morning I went to Walgreens and Dollar Store.
    Not too crowded and markings on floor indicated 6 ft.
    Half of the people did not wear a mask. I DID.
     
  13. Adam560

    Adam560 Member

    Probably a misprint Bill. I think most of the Phoenix media are not aware of the difference between the two Sun Cities.
     
  14. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    I hope the BOD & RCSC Management realize that with Sun City West golf shutting down it will have many golfers migrate to our courses. I'm sure this makes some start getting a gleam in their eyes like Uncle Scrooge, but we should err on the side of safety and shut our courses now!

    The fact that SCW is so emphatic about keeping all pedestrians, bike riders & dog walkers off the courses at any time under penalty of revoking the person's Rec Card will also be the case with our courses. Sad the golf courses can't be put to better use absent the privileged golfers.
     
  15. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    That was my first thought Adam 560. My second is far more suspect and would love to see/hear from the reporter about those "reports of Sun City residents who have tested positive." I understand the HIPPA laws as well as most, however we are talking about the potential outbreak in a community of elderly, more vulnerable people that are all at risk if this escalates.

    The reality is Sun City West admitted up front they kept their courses open for financial reasons. They are different than us, i think they subsidize golf from their general ledger. Sun City was built on a platform that golf would be cost neutral. Having no play crushes that. The good news for golfers is the PIF has never been allocated back, the bad news for all of us is, there are legitimate questions regarding the yearly budget actually being used in the manner it was intended.

    With that out of the way, it's just money. There is nothing more important than the health of the community at large. Hence the statement..."doing the right thing." We'll see.
     
  16. Say What

    Say What Active Member

    Did del Webb want dog parks did del Webb want parks for people to picnic and walk and walking trails and dog trails and bicycle trails there's nothing written which includes dog parks and I miss quoted myself Bill your name should be on the welcome center you deserve it!!!!
     
  17. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I have no idea about what you are and have been babbling about Say What regarding naming anything after me. I have noted you have avoided all reference to the very pointed questions i have asked you. More curious is your inability to articulate anything that is even remotely coherent. That surprises me given your background.

    Quick story; In 2009 as president of the Museum I began working with Debra Blake who at the time was a regional director with Pulte/Webb. The museum was called the Sun Cities Area Historical Society. We worked out an arrangement with them to replace the sign out front and to rename it The Del Webb Sun Cities Museum. The perfect name for the most incredible historical place in the community. The community BTW that changed the nation.

    As long as we are chatting; here’s another: If and when we buy the Lakes Club, it should be called The John Meeker Community Center. He was the genius behind our success. So you see, nothing should ever be named after or for me. If you truly understood our history i am just one of the thousands of people who tried to make Sun City a better place to live. That’s what community ownership is about.

    Now, how about answering some of those questions...if you have the nerve to be honest and do the right thing.
     

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