Civility; let's talk about it.

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by BPearson, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just finished reading an interesting letter to the editor in this week's Independent newspaper (3/27/19) from an old friend, Greg Eisert. As usual, Greg does a good job articulating his position. In the letter, he calls for civility in the rebuttals to Greg Payne's legislation (which has since died in the Senate).

    Fair point, but through the entirety of his arguments, he failed to understand what triggered the hostility and angst against him. There are always at least two sides to every discussion/debate. Payne's legislation was indeed a response to "help" the RCSC. No problem with any of that.

    Greg had this to say in his final paragraph: "Regardless, it is irresponsible to bash a legislator who has, and continues to serve, his constituency appropriately. We may not always agree with our fellow residents or our representatives, but we should always argue sensibly and in a manner befitting civility."

    The problem with his arguments is he flat out missed what triggered the anger. Civility begins with honesty. Using lies (yes, i said lies) to support the legislation is an insult to all of us living in Sun City. Pretending Youngtown lost its age restriction because of T33 is pure crap. Suggesting we would lose our age restricted status if we fell under T33 is nonsense. Telling people kids would be moving in and using our rec centers is laughable.


    There are legitimate arguments to want the RCSC to be covered by Title 10. The reality is, none of them are terrifying enough to get people to contact their legislators. Payne and the RCSC pushed the envelope on honesty and that's never acceptable behavior by those we elect.

    Perhaps in a day and age when lying becomes the standard of the political process, we should turn a blind eye and remain "civil." In the end, that only reinforces it as acceptable behavior. It's not Greg and we deserve better from Representative Payne and the RCSC board and management staff.
     
  2. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    So, in a nutshell, you're saying he isn't serving his constituents appropriately. I agree! While he may have been waltzed down a primrose path by some fast talkers in the RCSC realm, he continues to push the bill now knowing the real truth. Thus he is intentionally misrepresenting 35,000+ of his constituents by knowingly lying to them. Since I am a big fan of civility, I won't publicly use the adjectives you probably know I'm thinking...
     
  3. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Love the idea of speaking about civility. Where was the call from this same individual for honesty, integrity, and the truth when all of the misinformation was being doled out to the members? Honesty and integrity is present when truth of the issues is brought forward with the intent of being a positive conduit. Nothing done by the RCSC or this "legislator" in regards to behavior is indiactive of civility.

    So if you can't make your point salient with the truth, then do not expect the anger to dissappear on a whim.

    I would love nothing more than to be at this month's board meeting and see how much civility is shown to those who are ready to embrace a new culture and see the Planned Communities Act put to use in Sun City. Can't be there due to an infection in my incision from my knee replacement. But I am vested in wanting the right action to take place for the right reasons with the RCSC and the BOD. I would love to see the BOD table some of these motions for further discussion. But we all know this will not happen either as the master plan has already been dictated through the end. What a travesty for the RCSC membership.
     
  4. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Sadly, we can't count our chickens yet on Payne's HB2374. My neighbor just told me he heard it's been reincarnated somehow as a Senate bill and is up for vote in the House. I'd like to be civil about this, but damn...
     
  5. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Upon more investigation on the az leg site it seems SB1094, which was originally a telecommunications bill, is now possibly the equivalent of what was HB2374. The morph was done as a "strike everything" amendment. I haven't found anything but the title yet... so I don't know what's in the bill. A strike everything bill, according to the FAQs is:

    A "strike everything after the enacting clause" amendment (also referred to as a "strike everything" amendment or simply a "striker") proposes to delete the entire text of the existing bill and substitute new language, essentially making it a completely different bill, possibly on an entirely different subject. These amendments are sometimes used to allow legislators to circumvent the deadlines on introduction of new legislation, deal with an issue that arises after the deadline or revive a bill that has previously been defeated.

    Hardball at it's finest... and a lousy and sneaky thing to do.
     
    Don Varenhorst likes this.
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Brilliant! Sneak a different number on the bill and slide it through that way. And then people wonder why people hate politics and politicians. Let's recap where we are in this country: The crazy republicans prop up the president who is racing towards the 9000 lie mark since taking office. On the other side of aisle, the goofy democrats are screaming collusion even while the Mueller ink hasn't dried on his report finding no collusion.

    It's become the accepted practice to lie and not give a rat's behind about it. Truth has no value when those in the highest office treat it so cavalierly. This latest move in the AZ senate and house only solidifies the seamiest side of politics. Rumor has it the bill has been rewritten and may take some pressure off other planned communities. Guess we'll have to wait and see what's in the bill. Kind of like waiting for the release of the Mueller report eh?
     
  7. SCR

    SCR Active Member

  8. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Awesome, well before Barr released Mueller’s report. A poster sent me the link and I read it but couldn’t tell if it had changed. Someone sent me an email a day ago when they pulled the stunt to resurrect and claimed it was rewritten to help other planned communes and hurt the people living there. It sounded off, so I didn’t post anything.

    God I hate politics.
     
  9. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Just finished reading Rusty Bradshaw's piece in the Independent online about the "striker" bill. Fascinating. Oddly enough neither Kevin Payne or Rick Gray got back to Rusty to talk about or explain their position regarding this revival of a bill that was dead in the water. You can read it here.

    And for tutorial purposes, let's recap why this thread was started: Greg argued that we should be civil to politician's, even if we disagreed with them. More importantly "we should be able to argue sensibly and and in a manner befitting civility." I find that almost beyond the pale when they quietly reintroduce a bill and try and slide it through under a different bill number and then being unwilling to be able to articulate their position to the local press.

    The funny thing is, Greg and i are good friends. He knows politics inside and out. I have been around it most of my work life, and always feel like i need to take a shower after getting too close. As much as i respect his opinion, he really need to be talking to Rick and Kevin about this one, rather than those of us on the perimeter watching and commenting about how we see it.
     
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    If someone was at the hearing yesterday, it would be good to post a report about it. Better yet, a link to the hearing would be greatly appreciated. I heard some of the folks there didn't get an opportunity to testify, but at least one of our local politicians went on a "rant" about those there in opposition. Seeing first hand would be beneficial, especially if there is a question as to the "civility" of those comments.
     
  11. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    The link to watch the hearing: http://azleg.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=13&clip_id=22696
     
  12. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Fascinating to watch and frustrating to hear the misstatements from both sides of the discussion. The best question of the day came from Representative Blanc when she asked why if Sun City had to function under T33 that would be such a hardship. Clarity in answer would be appreciated but i certainly didn't hear it. What i did hear was: well, we've never had to in the past. True, but over the years, we always had documents that afforded the members a far greater ability to impact board decisions. That was until the GM and the board changed them.
     
  13. Don Varenhorst

    Don Varenhorst New Member

    Sun City has hired a lobbyist. I made an information request to the RCSC on March 20 to Jo Higgins to view the contract and view their secret email lists not shared with all residents. The RCSC must respond in five days and of course HAVE NOT. So much for honesty and transparency.

    The legislature has an RTS (Request to Speak System) that allows people to express their opinions --For, Against, or Neutral. The system requires that names be entered with a password in a kiosk at the capital before using the opinion feature. On March 25, the first day we heard of the 'Strike Everything Amendment' SB 1094 over 500 names were posted as being FOR and less than 10 as Against. I found an individual who had no knowledge of posting as being FOR measure. How many others? I can not say but am willing to wager it was more than one. I am a novice in this business. Thank you all for your posts!
     
  14. IndependentCynic

    IndependentCynic Active Member

    Frustrating was an understatement from my perspective. The playing field was pretty unequal in my opinion. There were a lot of untrue statements on both sides.

    The pro-HB1094 side was organized and prepared (mostly), pros at speaking, and mostly members or friends of the legislature. Its always that way I'd guess, so our side should have prepared for that. Jan Ek was weak as a presenter, and mostly off topic in my book, but the RCSC lawyer presented well -- and the RCSC paid for that I'd guess.

    Kudos to them for trying, but those that spoke against HB1094 should have been more organized, better coached. The Dessaules lawyer seemed to be a little unprepared and was not a strong persona. She should have jumped in when the question about why there was a lawsuit -- I think that was a win/lose point, we lost the argument when she didn't. (As I understand it, the Dessaules team is working on contingency -- we got what we paid for).

    The biggest fault overall, in my opinion, was none of them presented statements about the misdeeds of the BOD that the members essentially knew nothing about until they were in effect, how they have taken power away from the members; upping the quorum without member approval, modifying BLs to no longer require member approval, building a $20-mil rec center (Fairway) without member approval, the fact that increasing the quorum has resulted in never achieving one yet the board considers themselves elected with less than a quorum number of votes, the fact they reduced the number of member meetings to one per year, that they are targeting 50-mil on the declining sport of golf and less than 20% of the community golfs, the fact they have never surveyed the community to see what the community wants, etc ad nauseam.

    Hopefully someone can capitalize on the constitutional and due process issues raised by the one legislator. Otherwise the bill is a done deed I suspect.
     
  15. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    I too was struck by the fact that those opposed to the bill really came unprepared to speak to the shenanigans of the GM and Board. Those with more intimate knowledge of the workings of Sun City and what has transpired over the last 10 or more years should have been there to speak to the issues if they are truly important to them.

    The fact the this bill was re-incarnated under SB1094 {telecommunications fund; report; posting} in a very quick manner left no doubt that those in favor of this bill have fairly good ties to the politicians involved. They apparently know how to use the system to their advantage.

    Having a politician who lives in Sun City that supports this bill will go a long way in persuading the House to pass this bill.
     
  16. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member


    Yes, to the poor representation by those opposed to this bill. When I watched the hearing all I could do was shake my fist, shake my head and keep saying(out loud even!!)"Do these people even live in Sun City??? How can they state this misinformation??" to the rants and the inaccurate information. Where was the Queen of this hive of lawsuit bringers??

    I thought under Title 33 the quorum would go to 10 percent of eligible voters. Try getting a quorum of 3,500+ with that figure. I don't want to see the PIF go away. We would see a mass drop in property values if the annual assessments are increased to cover costs now paid for through the PIF. People with low incomes would either be in a position to sell at a much reduced price or be foreclosed on when they can't pay the annual assessment.

    Will the PIF definitely be in jeopardy?? No one has stated a fact on this point. Shouldn't Sun City West be concerned as they charge the same PIF as the RCSC?

    Ughhhhh. Just too frustrating all the way around. Pass SB1094 and let's see how the voluntary transparency plays out over the next few months.
     
  17. Don Varenhorst

    Don Varenhorst New Member

    I signed up to speak at Thurday's House Government Committee Hearing on the strike everything amendment on 1094. I sat for four hours waiting my chance but was apparently axed to allow Rick Grey time to rave and rant about ARS. He made an insinuation that those attending the hearing in opposition were under her control.

    Bill's comments defining the purpose and credibility of politicians crossed my mind as I was sitting there and almost prompted me into laughing out loud. Since I was sitting directly behind the speaker platform, I am sure laughing without reason would have been viewed equal to a fart in church.

    Another 6-5 vote with Pinocchio Payne leading the way.

    Sorry that I am ignorant on doing links.
    I am not doubting what many of you are saying that the opposition could have been done in a more organized way. Keep in mind those who spoke against had two days ... the other side most likely had two weeks.
     
  18. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    [QUOTE="

    I am not doubting what many of you are saying that the opposition could have been done in a more organized way. Keep in mind those who spoke against had two days ... the other side most likely had two weeks.[/QUOTE]

    Give me a break. This lawsuit has been going on for years. We've all heard the complaints by the "group". I've been attending meetings in Sun City for 20 years and can remember how this all started.
     
  19. SCR

    SCR Active Member

    I am not totally sure the quorum would change under T33. If you have facts that it will, please present them.

    I don't see the PIF ever going away under T33. If I'm not mistaken, SCW embraces T33 and they do have some sort of impact fee.

    I doubt that property values would change under T33. Property values are affected by the general economy. I for one am not concerned about my property value as I plan to live in this house for the rest of my life. Whoever inherits the property is getting a gift. The value of the gift is not important.
     
  20. aggie

    aggie Well-Known Member

    That's my point. Will the PIF go away? Property values will be affected if it does... not just because of the T33.
     

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