Where have you all gone? Riggo, to me, your posts seemed to be most passionate. I miss your input as to how the change of events will affect you opinion. Independent Cynic, you are by far, one of the smartest and genuine writer I saw, I sure would love to hear your opinion on this latest change of events. SCR, I appreciated your additions and commentary added to the blogs. I miss your voice. Aggie, your defense of SCHOA is the greatest talk spot of them all, as you knew all along it was the SCHOA who maintains the age overlay, plus so much more. How does this latest turn make you feel? SCHOA is still intact and as far as I am concerned, always will be. Not a word from Emily, or pegmih, and others who are regular contributors. Did this whole thing feel a bit overwhelming? Now that a decision has been reached, will you find it more amenable to add your voice back into the blog. I personally miss everyone who contributes to the discussion which is Sun City. I miss all of you, and hope to see you back on here soon. Please.
LOL! It's nice to feel wanted. Per Shakespeare: “Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows”! While I've "officially" been retired for 15-years, like many here, I still work part-time. I do it mostly because I enjoy helping people. A side benefit is that get to escape the "SC bubble". I often get to see how homeowners across the valley deal with their community management issues. I try to visit TOSC daily, but can't always spend the time to construct postings that are factually accurate and reasonably on-topic. Ok, enough of my excuses and fluff. To answer your question... "my opinion on the latest change of events.": Well, I still am not entirely convinced that the judge's ruling will stand in the face of pending legislation -- according to the actions section on https://trackbill.com/bill/arizona-...es-applicability-recreational-center/1637616/ it seems to be proceeding. I understand your point that the judge has already ruled, it's a done deed, etc. But it's not over til the lady sings, right? I'm not surprised that the BOD would be discourteous to members -- it's happened so many times in the past, it's always appalling, and it's abhorrent that some members think the BOD should be macho and act that way. It seems to me that candidates running for BOD positions should have previous experience with open meetings, parliamentary procedure (RRO?), and some knowledge of the inner workings of large organizations. It doesn't matter to me whether they got it from private industry, working on committees in SC, or wherever, but they need it. Lots of BOD candidates in the past have had a vision for change , got elected, and then were completely disarmed by the enormity of the "system" and the inertia of the "old guard". If the BOD goes "open meeting", I wonder if the management office will as well? Will the membership pay any more attention when they know what's really going on? Will more people get involved? We'll have to wait and see. l
I check this site every day. Sometimes I just don't have anything to say and I sure don't know anything about the politics of SC. With that said, how does everyone like the rain. I was prepared to wake up to snow today. Nada, nothing but rain. Yesterday the sun came out for nearly 2 hours! I miss the bus tours SC used to have. Wonder if they will ever come back. Much more fun than golf! BTW. what decision was made?
I haven't yet been convinced that the judges ruling is permanent, or that HR2374 will not somehow affect the judges decision if passed by legislature, or that the current post card mailing and email blast regarding the annual meeting was done in a genuine fashion to bring the members of the community back into the mix at open meetings. I believe it is way to early to do any celebrating. Only time will tell if the GM/BOD is genuine in their effort to have open meetings. One of the many questions that has gone unanswered is how has T33 affected the age situation in Sun City West. Has it allowed under age residents to take up residence? Have owners outside of Sun City West been able to use the facilities? These and other questions need to be investigated by the BOD (not the GM). In fact, an independent organization should be commissioned to investigate and answer any and all questions regarding T33 and how it will affect Sun City. I am not convinced even a little that T33 will be bad for Sun City. I believe that the GM and BOD believe they are dealing with lemmings and that they (the lemmings) will do whatever the GM/BOD recommends. The residents of Sun City have by complacency given complete control to the BOD and the BOD has given complete control to the GM. Will T33 correct that. Probably not.
I would say it a little differently -- they allowed the BOD/Mgmt to TAKE control. Either way, the net result is the same. There's no argument from me that a lot of members are clearly uninformed and apathetic. But I sense there's also a large proportion who are essentially uninformed but nonetheless take it upon themselves to blindly defend the actions of the RCSC and do whatever the RCSC says without questioning it. These are the lemmings of which you speak, the ones who give the RCSC power they don't deserve; the ones who are ultimately responsible for the failure of all attempts of due diligence and oversight by concerned members. What's missing is opposition leadership and a vehicle to disseminate information. The RCSC has an army of people, a website, a monthly publication, bulletin boards, club announcements, email blasts, etc as their "voice". What does the opposition have? Not much -- a few of us, this board, and the Anne Randall Stewart movement. Whether you like/dislike Anne, she has tried to lead to achieve some objectives, one of which is T33 conformance. Over ten years ago, give or take, she began rallying a group of residents who the BOD feared would succeed at mustering the quorum of 100 at the next member meeting and actually pass a member motion! This is the point the board became overtly dictatorial and in conjunction with JE, took ALL control away from the members. The board increased the quorum to 3500 and started rewriting by-laws, policies, etc to firewall themselves from the membership. They used false or misleading info to justify their actions -- Examples: they told the membership they were changing the quorum to be 10% of the membership (3500) because "their lawyers told them they had to do that to conform to Az Revised Statutes." I don't know what their lawyers actually told them, but it was clear that no such wording existed in the law -- what the statutes actually said back then was that the quorum would default to 10% IF the corporate documents didn't specify a number. The RCSC documents DID specify, and had from day one, and further stipulated that a member vote was necessary to change that 100 to something else. This is the point where they became dishonest. The lemmings believed them, so they changed more documents, they instituted procedures to ensure every vote of the board was unanimous, they did away with member committees, etc., etc. It was rumored they got the the Independent to discontinue their forum where we all discussed what we discuss here now. Meanwhile, Anne accumulated enough money through donations to get the lawsuit going. Personally, I disagree with a lot of her agenda, but as a realist I have to admit that without her perseverance the existing T33 ruling would probably not have happened. One never knows -- even enemies sometimes combine forces against a greater enemy. Or not. Looking forward, even if the recent changes stick, don't we need resources and a "movement" of sorts to inform and engage the uninformed to become involved and let their voices be heard? Otherwise, won't the status quo continue as though nothing has changed?
So extremely happy to see some feedback from everyone. And such great commentary. Love the input and the engaging conversations. I really do have some ideas, and the first one evolves around pegmih's comments. There was always an "entertainment" factor to the bus tours which are sorely missed. There is no recourse, because the GM rewrote the board policies to state that all of the management team as well as all employees are her domain, and the board cannot interfere in their assignments. If you read the duties of the GM of other planned communities, the GM guides the work of the management team, but are not solely the property of the GM. It reads, to me, the board can have input into the management team's direction and work, and in an indirect way is responsive to the BOD. I would like to see this same kind of stipulation put into the board policies of the RCSC, or at least amend the policy which takes all board authority over the management team away from the board. I feel if there are items of interest to the members which are brought before the board, the board should be able to challenge the management team to find a way to make certain items available for members if there is an interest. Also, if there is a member of the management team the membership feels is not being responsive to the members needs, perhaps another person needs to fill that particular position. This would be a great item to bring to the board during open work session to get their feedback and involvement in. Independent Cynic, always glad to hear your opinions and voice on the issues. The question of the open meetings and the management being open as well, that kind of feeds off of my comments above. I feel the power of the GM needs to be curtailed and reigned in. The board should be making decisions for the community based upon the best interest of the community and its members. Frankly, I am not sure how informed the board is on the various nuances of the workings of the RCSC, and may find it difficult, at first, to be able to discuss items with the members due to the fact up to this point the GM has made the final decisions and had the BOD just rubber stamp her decisions. It is going to be up to us, the voice of change which will lead the new direction. Even though there are few attendees at the member-exchange meetings, there are many who do watch the YouTube videos of the proceedings and are able to form some sort of an opinion based upon what it is heard and exchanged. The great news is the video portion of the meetings are not edited, so the real results of how the meeting went are in full public view. I have not heard how the open work sessions and their associated agendas will be posted for viewing prior to the meetings, but this should wake some of the apathetic up once they can see what is going to be discussed, when it is going to be available for public interaction and how to offer up ones own opinion. When open meetings were posted about the visitor passes costs going up and the Duffieland dog park, we had tons of attendance. Why? Because it was something near and dear to many people, and it was a chance to be heard, something rarely done by the RCSC. I feel a part of the "movement" will be the newness of having the ability to see the board in action. For the first time in over 50 years, an audience will be able to see how the board conducts its business, discusses pending decisions and whether or not the BOD is paying attention to the members. Add the YouTube video, and it will be a wonder to behold, in my very humble opinion. If the attitude continues from the board members and they refuse to be member friendly, that in and of itself, will be a great motivator to the community as no one likes to be ignored, talked down to or treated with anything but respect. SCR, so happy to hear your voice of skepticism, as it affords a great forum to provide answers to your questions, ones that others may have as well. T33 references everything back to the 'community documents'. It would translate into the current "Corporate Documents" already written and in place for the RCSC. The community documents spell out, as in SCW, which does not allow underage owners to take up residence in the age overlay area. The documents further define how old one must be to stay at a residence in SCW as long as there is a senior in the home, the same as the RCSC corporate documents. The age overlay is not in jeopardy as some would have us believe. The age overlay is administered by SCHOA, not the RCSC and is not even a part of T33 or the planned communities act. I, nor does anyone else, have a crystal ball as to what the RCSC will do in the future, but we have models of communities that are a part of the planned communities act, and T33, and they function and thrive in an adult environment. Sun City West, Grand, or any other Sun City community in the State of Arizona, which works under T33. I will have more at a later time as to what I would like to address with the BOD, but it is late, and I have used up all my good brain cells for today. More to come. I thank all of you for your input, it was spectacular to hear from all of you, you made my day!
Dang gang, love the introspective look at the community, and why we have failed to evolve of late. There were actions taken that led us to this doorstep. Moving away from self-governance to a more autocratic style wasn't accidental, it was all about control. The original documents were built to prevent that. The greatest generation was far more into being a part of the community, the boomers, not so much. It is why every one of the 5 magazines i have written on Sun City always included some history and the fact new buyers needed to take ownership in the process of governing. Perhaps a fools game on my part, because a magazine was only a small step in the right direction. There was so much more that needed to be done. An ongoing commitment to educating the membership was about way more than just the feel good stuff we get fed. Sun City is unique and for anyone to understand how it works, would take setting that as a goal. Building a cohesive strategy for education and communication that would be interesting, fun and motivational would be at the core of our existence. It wouldn't just be something we do, but it would define who we are and why we exist. The tragedy is, by not doing that we get to the point where it looks like, at times, it is us versus them. Nope, we are them. Been there, done this before. I know it works, but it is a slow process. It doesn't happen overnight, but over time. Unless and until we have a GM and or a board who understands the benefits of growing the membership into an active body of people engaged in the process of self-governance we will simply slog along like we currently are. Most people are satisfied with that, because it simply means they can let someone else do the work and aren't accountable for the outcomes. All of which adds up to we will never live up to our potential.
Bill, I know I make you crazy with the Lakes Club, but I really can see the 13000 sq feet being used as an arts and education center for the RCSC. I envision developing the indoor area into an art display/lecture area with seating and appropriate lighting. The patio area can become an "Artist on the Lake" presentation where musical interludes can be performed, such a flutists, quartets and the such. The education area would be a great spot to present topical items such as government and you, or why should you care? The walls could be decorated with various art objects, selected monthly, from a different artistic club. We could even host small groups of like minded individuals to discuss various endeavors and how to further the cause. Once in, we are then in a spot to take over the rest of the GCU when their lease runs out, and really expand the education and arts program significantly. I would like to see Diana Graettinger, Darla Akins, and Stella VanNess be the leads on this. Seek out the information on the current spot available, when the lease for GCU expires, cost to lease, amount lease can be negotiated to, negotiate parking, all with the eye of purchasing the building long term. It would be a short term venture/long term goal, but an ideal addition to Sun City with the right planning. I could even furnish the Board members with the number of the person representing the property as well as the flashy brochure. We, as a community, do not have a central place for communication or educational endeavors. This could be the place, the central hub, beyond the GM and the BOD, where information and ideas can flow. Can we at least have a chance to earn the right to live up to our potential? This community needs exactly this kind of a venue, so the first time it was tried, it was sabotaged. This attempt would have closer eyes on the prize, not relying on mere words and promises of the right contact somewhere in the middle of a large corporation. This time it can be done, eyes wide open, fully aware of the pitfalls, and keeping eyes on the prize of a positive outcome. What is the old saying "first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me". Here is the second chance to get it done, and if we don't at least give a glimmer of hope, then it will be shame on me.
Actually Carole, it would be the third time. Back in 2000 they could have bought the Lakes Club and all the property from Thunderbird to the lake for about 2 million dollars. The PIF had just started the year before and they didn't have that kind of cash on hand. They could have gone to the membership and asked for it, via a vote, but that would have taken brass balls. I almost always invoke the memory here of John Meeker because he showed us the right way to build/run the community. It is so simple it almost hurts to think about it. Let me shout it: ASK PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT. I learned it the hard way, but i learned it quickly. Meeker was always wanting to know what residents wanted/thought about direction. It worked because he not only asked, he listened. And there-in lay the problem. The minute you ask, you had better be willing to pay attention. Imagine 10 years ago, before we began the massive infusion into golf had we polled the membership. I don't mean some half-ass efforts, i mean getting into the community to see how they felt investing 60 million to 80 million dollars over the next 15 years. What was it the community wanted/needed the most? And so i am clear, there are decisions the board needs to make. Golf courses need good irrigation, water distribution and wells that work. That is just doing due diligence. After that, can you imagine the community spending money on a sport that has about 15% (at best) of the population that plays? When we hired a strong GM, we set ourselves up to rely on her and her expertise. It's why boards' never challenge or question her. As far as renting the Lakes Club open space, don't hold your breath. It would take some vision and sadly we are committed to enormous sums of money for years to come. And, let me say this: i have never been arrogant enough to think i know what Sun City residents want. There's only one way to get that information and we just aren't built that way. Losing control isn't in our current DNA; it is why they are chasing this legislation to protect them from T33. That's where the disconnect comes in for me; who are they really protecting? The board? The GM/management? The Community? Answer that question honestly and one quickly can get their arms around what is going on.
You are so right Bill, it is not my decision to make as to what the community wants or needs. I let my imagination get away from me again. I still am for the removal of the total control of the management team by the GM. I feel this has caused some extremely poor decisions at the expense of the members. The entertainment committee and what it chooses to provide the community as far as alternatives services such as bus trips and travel should be brought back, it was always a great member benefit. It also sounds as if the clubs have been affected by leasing of venues with the entertainment committee making the choices, supposedly at the BOD direction. The enormous sums of money for years to come is a direct result of the GM we have. I know when I was on the board, discussing the Solar contract, it was never presented to the board that in order to complete the deal, it meant signing a multi-million dollar deal with no provisions for a maintenance contract or an opt out clause due to poor performance. This would/should have been the deal breaker. I also feel a certain club should not be allowed to have space at the new location, as it did not complete the vetting process. Instead, a certain board member brought it up at a board meeting, had it voted on, and was given space. This is not doing ones fiduciary duty to the board or the members, and should be examined closely by an outside forensic auditor. I want the forensic auditor to really scrutinize the accounting practices of what was and should not have qualified as PIF funds. If need be, prevent the opening of the space on Grand Ave until such time it is proven all of the clubs were served equally and equitably in the process. I truly want the open meetings to begin just as soon as humanly possible, such as by the next member exchange meeting. No more behind the scenes deals. I want the car club project to slow down, as there are other clubs that have been waiting and begging forever for additional monies and space. The car club can wait its turn, like everyone else does for funding. No one knows what the costs will be from this suit. The ongoing litigation will cost dearly, over and above the insurance policy the RCSC took out to cover such incidents. This last bit of information may not be what the members want to hear, but it is certainly something that must be done to restore the integrity to the BOD and RCSC. The GM, well that is another segment to be dealt with.
Jan Ek is a very knowledgeable GM. She is certified at a level few in her field ever reach. Her extensive experience is what makes her such a desirable candidate to have as a property general manager goes. She is literally head and shoulders above any one else in her field. So, why such scorn from me? Somewhere along the way, it feels as if she overstepped her bounds of being property GM, and became the voice and control of the RCSC. Instead of having the board lead the direction, it feels as if she felt she knew what was best for all concerned, and directed the various boards to follow her lead. If there were any dissenters, there was always a way around the issue by rounding up the board members she felt would vote her way, and lead the direction from their point of view. This is how the LRPC got gone. This is how the complete control of the management team became hers. This is how the second dog park disappeared. This is how golf became the premium money draining adventure it has. And there are other examples, but I made my point. Her abilities as a GM are unparalleled in the scope of leading property managers. What we have now is a GM which directs the BOD in their daily activities, with the BOD being her rubber stamp of approval. This is nothing new, it has been going on for years. It will be interesting to watch the BOD try and have a meeting, answer questions, and not have the GM provide the answers for them. I would truly love to be at the next member-exchange meeting, and had my plans worked out the way I wanted them to, I would be. But alas, the best laid plans of mice and men.... Jan is now saddled with some tough months ahead. The suit goes back to court on March 6th for phase two regarding if the Judge will award the suit "class action" status. Depending on how he rules, this could cost the RCSC a small fortune. She has to pay the final tab for the Solar project, which is somewhere between $6-$8 million dollars just to satisfy the lease payment. This cost does not count any costs for maintenance of the system. There is a new golf building being built at south, which I have yet to hear of a cost associated to, and the Grand Ave property, a big bone of contention with me, is still moving forward. The next several months are going to be rough for her, the RCSC, and ultimately, the members who have acquiesced their power to the GM. Perhaps the sheer numbers of dollars being spent will awaken those stuck in complacency as to what has been going on and why they need to pay attention now. I do not wish Jan any additional hardship over what she has facing her in the next few months. I do hope she truly embraces T33 and the Planned Communities Act and makes it work for the community, its members and the RCSC.
I disagree a bit Carole. Not that Jan isn't qualified, because she surely is. Where i take exception is in how the board shrugs its role in not being more aggressive in their duties. The GM is hired to protect the assets of the corporation, the board is elected to represent the will of the people. Some folks say they are inclusive, i think the word Rich uses is symbiotic. If only that were true. The perfect example is regarding the solar lease/buyout. I have no idea what happened, how the buyout went from 4 to 5 million? How we ended up with a lease where there was no maintenance agreement and we were on the hook for replacing inverters them before we owned them? We (the board) never saw the lease, only knew it took a long time to iron out. Was anyone ever held accountable? Geez, they fire the workers in the trench's for minor infractions, but in my book a million dollars is one hell of a lot of money. And of late, especially after watching the last member exchange, it looks like they (the board) wants to shovel everything other than "policy" off on the management team. I get it, we have watched a time (pre-Jan) where the board used to work 20 plus hours a week. She did a great job of minimizing the hours spent by board members at Lakeview. Again, not a bad thing as long as the board didn't take everything they were given as the gospel. Not if they were willing to challenge/question some of those stats and were interested in listening to people. The entire equation of board/management relations is fascinating to me, most others it would put to sleep. A strong GM is a good thing, but only if there is a strong board working in concert. Protecting the assets of the corporation is important, so the counterbalance of being the voice of the membership is equally so.
The solar contract debacle happened the same way management “rotates” it’s major contract work among three contractors, and than looks to these contractors for the estimated job cost and time for completion. This information management should be providing to potential bidders, not information the bidders should be providing to RCSC management. To compound the problem, Management guaranteed the Board that an employee would be dedicated to oversight of the Solar project. Almost as quickly as the employee was assigned he was pulled from the project. The Solar project contract was flawed, and the lack of oversight on such an important project only further contributed to the problem. How did the Bid Commission allow this to happen. How exactly did RCSC management make this million dollar mistake work out in it’s accounting. And we aren’t even talking about the continued cost associated with the chronic repair of the inverters. The GM is quick to point out that the RCSC Auditor is always on the nose with accounts. How is that possible. . . the million dollars had to come from somewhere. I have to agree that an outside forensic auditor needs to conduct a full scale review of the books RCSC books for at least the last 5 years. How is that neither the GM, management, nor the Board knows what the contract costs or completion time is for the Grand Ave project (GAP). Furthermore, if as was mentioned at the last meeting that we will not proceed with new projects until the GAP is completed, why were forums conducted at Mountain View. The membership is looking for an Architect-Engineer (A/E) to be selected, but neither the GM,management, nor the board know when this will happen. So, just exactly who is running Sun City these days.
Bill, I would agree with your statements in principle. Even with a strong board, or board members, if the deck has been stacked and the GM has the strings of those in control under her thumb, one is basically left with a board being run by the GM. If you stack the board with a majority of members who have an agenda, and the GM is in lock step with the same agenda, the dissenting members are only noise to be dealt with. I am truly hopeful with a strong board, open meetings and a greater awareness of what the community can do to help itself for today and the future, there will be a new dynamic to take place. Do you think the current board has the members best interest at heart? Or is it going to take another election or two to get board members who really can walk the walk and talk the talk? We have had elections and the prospective candidates have had qualifications to be admired, yet, when these same people get behind the closed doors, they, too, had a hard time deciphering what direction to take depending on the information fed them. Here is to a new era of a strong board with the members best interest. Here is also hoping a strong board will recognize when it is time to lose the riffraff and lighten the burden for the rest of the board members.
