I'll be 68 years old this July, which means i was a mere 15 on that horrible day back in November of 1963. For so many of us in that age category, i suspect we wonder what it would have been like had Lee Harvey not shot down JFK? Had not the man who inspired a vision of a better tomorrow not been laid to rest by an assassin's bullet. I would suspect, many of you have become as skeptical as I am since that day, watching as politicians parading like they care about us, all the while lining their own pockets and doing the party's bidding with no concern about the masses. But this thread isn't about politics or politicians; it's about finding my own little slice of Camelot. When i first visited Sun City in the winter of 97, i was stunned. I tell people it changed my life. I went from being a flaming workaholic, to just wanting to reach retirement age and being able to move here. Sun City was throwback to a better place in time. A setting where the people far surpassed any notion of the politics. And while all around us, the corporation became the driving force of virtually our entire world, a sense of community became far more apparent than anything else. Once we moved here, i started digging into the history. Realizing that Sun City was nothing more than a vision that the developer (DEVCO) and those buying here turned into a reality. That a dream for a better way for seniors to live could take root and grow into something as spectacular as it did made it all the more special. Perhaps it's why i am so protective of how Sun City was built; so concerned we lose the ideals that went into molding the community; so fearful we abandon the values that made us what we are. Hence the reason for this thread. Is Sun City just another place to live? Just another street address in a long succession of addresses in our lifetime? Or, in your minds, is it something special, something better, something different? There is a common set of differences between boomers buying in Sun City of late and the greatest generation residents who made up Sun City's population since DEVCO gave the community to them. They were joiners, they took the ownership of the community and it's success to heart. They volunteered and ran it as if it mattered. Boomers are far more aloof. They typically don't join. If they volunteer they do so differently. Ownership of the process includes less trust and more skepticism. They are more inclined to pay someone to do it than have to do it themselves. It all begs the questions; does it matter if Sun City just becomes another city of paid folks doing it for us? Does it matter if we are part of the process of self-governance or are we prepared to turn it all over to a few and let them decide our fate and our future?
Tomorrow's board meeting will be the classic example of how far we strayed. Naturally we are having this meeting in June when huge numbers of residents are gone and when many of the seniors won't go out in the heat of the day. If there are 25 non-board and staff members there it would be a big crowd. Residents will be able to get up and give their 3 minute's to explain why they like or dislike the motion (or other topics) and if there are questions, the board will not answer them. Once the "discussion" is over they will move to the motions and this one will sail through. I'll say by a 7 to 2 margin, but who knows, maybe they'll all cave and agree to plow ahead with a for profit company that at this point the board has been unable to articulate why we need it. I've written volumes in the early days as the board often would take a position and when faced with questions or concerns would table the motion or simply change to drop a motion based on community concerns. I fear those days are long gone as we move away from Camelot and just become another Glendale, Surprise or Peoria. Nothing wrong with those cities, but if that's the kind of governance i was looking for, i would have bought in one of them. Sun City was special...will it be as we move forward?
BPearson It would seem that the complacency of Sun City has shown itself again in that there haven't been many replies to this post. Complacency is what has contributed to the demise of Sun City as a self governing city. By your own count there may be 25 attendees at the board meeting. How do 25 members hold the board accountable and affect change? Unfortunately, they don't. The board sees this complacency as their authority to do whatever they want amd make any changes they want including changes to the by-laws and any other document governing Sun City. As you've stated in other posts, candidates campaign on transparency and after elected abandon that notion and bend to the will of the powers to be on the board. Board members somehow seem to lose whatever enthusiasm they had to affect change. This coupled with the complacency of the community at large has brought about the current state of affairs. I firmly believe that some board members have a personal agenda based upon the interests of minority groups in Sun City. If there is not some sort of personal agenda then board members should be able to stand up and fight and not aquiesce to the whims of the board. As far as Sun City being some sort of Camelot, I have never felt that way. I moved here because the community is relatively inexpensive, taxes are low, homes are kept in good repair for the most part, and the community is quiet and peaceful. I really don't think that's the definition of Camelot which many people regard as fictional. Sure, there are a lot of amenities here, but how many residents take full advantage of all these amanities or even 2 or 3? I for one have never taken advantage of any of the amenities as they have little or no interest to me. I'm neither a boomer or milenial. Most of my interests are outside of Sun City and I find them more rewarding than any of the clubs, groups or associations in Sun City. My major contribution to volunteerism keeps me busy 5 to 6 hours every day (except weekends) throughtout the year. It taxes my mind and body, allows me to learn new skills, and provides a sense of accomplishment. I'm not one for hibernating in the summer because of the high temps, I'm out working in them. As part of being part of self-governance, Sun City has given that up over I'd say at least the last 10 years or more through complacency. We have already turned Sun City over to the few and we will probably never get that control back. There is no board accountability and they have insulated themselves quite nicely by all the things you quoted in your post of "Community safeguards flushed". Sun City is still a nice place to live as long as you can put up with the boards shinannigans.
Thanks for your answer SCR; i always appreciate it when people take the time to articulate their thoughts and put pen to paper, or in this case, keyboard to screen. What we know about these types of forums is far more people read than write. I always find it fascinating to read or hear what people feel about Sun City. Your response sent me scurrying to see if i could find a definitive answer as to what JFK's Camelot was. This article by Brent Budowsky entitled JFK's Camelot Was Real is a pretty good read. Here's a summary of what he felt it meant: The magic of Kennedy was not what he promised us, but what he asked from us. A whole generation of Americans of Americans of all ages was inspired to careers in public service carrying with them—-as some still do today—-his credo of patriotism through service. This was Camelot—and this was real—unlike so much of politics today which is about image and maneuvering and self-interest and public relations. If you think about it in today's terms, politicians get elected by promising us stuff, JFK asked us to participate in making stuff happen. The evolution of our country and for that matter, a good part of the world has been a movement away from self-reliance. The race for more has changed us in so many ways, not all of them good. It's one of the reasons i found Sun City so compelling. It was a simpler way to live. It was a community that if we ceased to give back, it could well become what everywhere else had become. From the day i first came to understand Sun City, it became a fear i harbored. I've watched and participated as some of the basic tenets of the community have been shattered by the management and board with nary a concern as to what they were doing. Pushing people away is never a conduit for growing the circle of people who participate and take ownership...all it does is centralize the power in the hands of a few so they can accomplish their agenda. Sun City was built on an entirely different precept. The more people involved, the more likely we were to getting it right. The checks and balances were written into the Articles of Incorporation and the By-Laws so that any changes would take an effort, not just the whims of a handful who controlled the process. Sadly, those very protections have been changed, and in my humble opinion, at the cost to the majority of us living here. There's so much more and given this holiday weekend, i suspect i'll keep picking away at the keyboard. Funny thing about writing for me is, it is cathartic, and helps me understand what i am feeling and why.
Greetings. I've been absent here for months but popping in from time to time, getting more and more dismayed as to whether I should move to original Sun City or not. All the recent posts about the latest BOD members, and excluding any advance information to or survey of owners when taking BIG actions is so off putting. Then there are the posts about the utility charges coming. Then there were posts some time ago, which caused me to flee this site for a while, that each home was not not issued two passes, regardless of whether owned by a single, two singles, two martians or a traditional male/female white senior married couple had me fuming. I had imagined moving there, enjoying the same features and benefits as everyone else who had bought and moved there, and settling in to enjoy my work and play in the dessert. I have no plans to retire and work from home. I also envisioned volunteering, just like I always have, and frankly we boomer singles have free time to spend where we want to. To be brief, if I were to purchase in SC, and didn't receive the same passes and access that a married couple residence did, I would certainly take my volunteer hours and divide those by half or even less. Why would I generously give back when I would be treated so differently. So, for those who have moved recently, and the others who have been owners there long term - how should I view all the recent rounds of posts here. Particularly, J & V, are you wondering what you got yourself into??
Hey Andria, good to hear from you again. The single rec fee per household is a question every buyer need get their head around before they purchase. If you look at Sun City West where they still have the single only option, your yearly fee will be just a little less than what our per household fee is. Over time there won't be any single only payers in Sun City, but there will always be the question of two people in a home getting what a single only is paying for. Which is the perfect segue, to a conversation i had the other day with some folks at the SCHOA open house (including two RCSC board members). The board yearly gets owners complaining they own multiple properties, paying the associated fees for them. Their issue usually stems from a couple getting married and moving in together, yet not putting both names on the title (usually because of children from a previous marriage who are going to inherit one of the properties). I made the mistake of using an example of person i know with 5 homes, paying on all of them, and the one they live in being in just his name. The spouse has to buy a privilege card for an additional $236 (that's above and beyond the other 5 homes they pay on). My mistake was using the number 5; seems they got all hung up on what's the magic number. Nope, not even close. I had this argument while on the board and made no headway. The gm likes the way it is and board members don't want to rock the boat. The argument for a single rate, whether 1 or 2 people in the home, was the RCSC could budget better if their income stream was a constant. 27,000 plus homes times a fixed yearly rate would generate a set number of dollars. With each passing year, we are getting closer to the goal of the board from back in 2003. Clearly the move was about revenue and clearly it worked. The added bonus to the RCSC is the additional revenue from selling privilege cards to individuals living in the home but not on the deed, to say nothing of punch cards and all of the rental homes in Sun City with multiple revenues from both renters and owners. So here's the solution i posed the other day and while serving on the board: Any home paying the full rec fee (currently $472) would be entitled to 2 cards, irrespective of the title and with proof there were in fact two people living in the home. Single owners living alone would be entitled to get punch cards to use for guests so as not to add insult to injury. Is it perfectly fair? Nope, but infinitely better than what we have now. It will cost us something in revenue, but as the goal is met to reach 100% of the homes all paying the flat rate, the revenue end of this will take care of itself. My argument while on the board was this is the kind of town hall meeting we could have to get feedback from residents. You see how far that got me eh? Just a quick word to you Andria: Sun City is the best deal going. There are newer, nicer communities and they are all way more expensive. Sun City is still heads and shoulders above the others in so many ways, so i would never not have SC on my short list of choices. There are almost always going to be better places for you, based on your wants and needs, but you owe it to yourself to figure what it is you want and need.
Both West and Grand have volunteer boards and both have hired staff. West is the closest thing to us from an infrastructure standpoint, while Grand has become single entity governed (the rec board and HOA are 1 organization). Sun City West is a hybrid with PORA being their HOA but the rec board having the authority/obligation to deal with violations that go beyond the letter stage. All of the communities have some common features, but none are as extensive as the original Sun City.
I may be wrong, but SC West & Grand are also organized under AZ Statutes Title 33 which is why they have open meetings. RCSC is organized under Title 10....a whole different horse.
Grand is in fact a planned community and falls under Tittle 33. Sun City West is similar to Sun City and they used to argue it was under Title 10. In the late 90's a group of residents formed a group called Sun City West Organization for Open Government and the net of their efforts was they now follow some of the features found in Title 33. Hence the open meetings.
Hey Andria.....Everyday I wonder and question what we got ourselves into. Occasionally, I look at the alternatives and that eases the panic. My "second guessing" isn't because of the BOD, or the utility rates. The utilities are run as a monopoly just as they are anywhere, so we will adjust and either pay the rate or check into alternatives as they become available. The board has been set up to not handle change well. I have some theories, but they are not based on any concrete information. I believe the new wave of owners will demand their rights be restored. Unlike some of the old fogeys, I believe the younger boomers, and the next generation, does care and will jump on the chance to self govern. What we have hear is anerve educational deficit about how Sun City really works. I could go on, but I'll spare you the speech. As for the single vs dual owner and rec center privileges. A LOT of people have ideas and some day soon it will need to be addressed. Again, this is something the board is probably not allowed to think about, but the coming wave will demand change. I would not hesitate in making the decision to move here. I have learned so much since we moved and do not regret it at all. Next time you are in town, let us know. We can meet for a soda (or a water in summer) and chat.
Nice thread you started Bill, it is slightly stale so I'll give it a kick start. I was 11 on that terrible day in 1963. To this day I still recall JFK's call to the people, "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." As kids we all thought this was a call to join the military and fight for freedom, of course this is part of it. As we grew older and some of us did join our favorite branch, later we started to understand there was much more to his call to serve. >> Sun City was special...will it be as we move forward? I have looked at Sun City since 2013 and have read much of the drama about the BOD, management and the handful of residents that really care. While it can get discouraging all one has to do is go visit, look at what you get for what it will cost you and you soon realize Sun City is still special. No where in this country (believe me I have looked and looked) will you get as much value for your retirement dollar. I currently live in a HOA controlled neighborhood and the drama is similar, a handful of people step up and serve while the other residents of our 835 homes sit back and whine about what they don't like. The difference is our BOD can only serve 2 years, but can easily get re-elected and usually do. Then they get burned out and tire of the whining and quit. The problem is some of the ones that want to serve do so because they have their own agenda and really don't care about the good of the community. From an outside point of view it appears to me the Sun City BOD has long forgotten who management works for. The BOD has also long forgotten who elected them (or don't care) and the residents have become so complacent they are failing to remind them. The BOD has let the power of so called leadership go to their heads and they need to be corrected, but a handful of residents can't do that. The community has to come together in number and force change and I suspect that is likely not going to happen any time soon. When our community has a meeting we usually get about 15-20 residents that show up out of 835 homes, most others send in a proxy form to the president. I admit I have been there myself a few times. The good news is that the BOD is like any leadership situation, the leaders will eventually change. Unfortunately the bad ones can do a lot of damage while there and can poison the minds of new comers. Sun City is still on the top of my list of retirement places in a couple of years. I have to admit when we get there I will try to be a hermit for a while to decompress and figure out the good life. After that I will try to be a voice of change. As for the future of Sun City, I believe the future is bright. My kids and the younger generation in our neighborhood are a loud voice for fairness and equality and our community is changing for the better. Bottom line, IMHO Sun City is special, however change will never happen until a majority of the residents demand it.
AMEN! I have lived in SC for nearly 10 years and have yet to hear someone say they don't like it. Sure there is some politics going on, but that's normal. The weather is great and I am a Sunbird. In case you didn't know, that is the opposite of Snowbird. The people are friendly. Just walk down the street and you get smiles from everyone. There are many, many clubs, programs, etc. And best of all, the Price Is Right!
Absolutely Peg, that is why we chose Sun City. My wife was reluctant because of the summer heat and still is a bit concerned about it. But the quilting club, sewing club, etc. and staying in SC a few days made her a convert. For me the day I found the write up in 55 Places by Bill I was sold. We will be sunbirds and our kids in Iowa have said they will make a point of visiting us in the winter. We will likely visit them in the summer for at least a few weeks.
Hey BW great to see you alive and posting. What's shaking on the retirement front? You any closer to escaping the rat race?
I know a lot of people that complain. If you live here year round you avoid the topics of politics, religion and unless you have a spare hour you don't bring up the subject of health! That leaves complaining about the RCSC, the weather and where to go to dinner. :joyous:
BW....make good on that promise to decompress. We got here and started home upgrade "projects". Our last project has taken do many turns we now have "project" fatigue. This has sucked out all our energy. We will prevail and impose a 1 year ban on projects.
Hey BP, yeah having to focus on a new job that is rather intense, but I haven't forgotten about the fun city . The plan is for 2-3 years at most, however if either of our jobs quit us that will likely change things dramatically. To be honest I'm sort of hopeful one of them falls through, but sadly it looks like our jobs are pretty well set for now. The Denver housing market is insane, homes sell in days not weeks and usually for more than asking price with multiple offers. Our equity would pretty much cover what we would want in Sun City. The retirement account is looking pretty good so we are darn close. We didn't make it to spring training this year, so sad, I'm needing my AZ fix. I get to sign up for medicare come January... still scratching my head around that mess.
Awesome comeback BW...must be because of Obama's great job in the White House (just pulling your leg my brother). The good news is your end game is in site and Sun City will be an incredible next step in your journey. Looking forward to you becoming one of us for real. Nice!
