Is it legal to exclude snowbirds from being directors

Dave,

Please follow me on this round about journey to expound on my governance of recreation question. Do you participate in any material way in any club or activity that RCSC offers? You see, I tend to see two groups of residents in Sun City: Participants and Nonparticipants. Each pays the same amount in fees. Each member of each class has their own reason for being a member and both enjoy the mild winter weather. The low cost of living is an attraction for both. For the participants, I would argue the main attraction is the facilities to pursue their interests and the other participants with similar interests who also participate. For the nonparticipants the main attraction is probably cost and safety although there could be a wide variety of reasons they moved to Sun City or remain here. If we accept this framework as a valid basis of reference, one can see that there may be drastically different viewpoints among the two groups of members.

Now if we overlay the above demographic observation on the purposes of the corporation we see there is a disconnect. The corporation is focused on providing participants with recreational opportunities and, I would argue, encouraging participation in those activities. This is what is being governed - recreation; cost, rules for use, quality, diversity, availability, utilization, maintenance, etc. I would argue that those that participate are best able to govern because they experience the reality of the amenities offered. The nonparticipants merely observe those amenities and do not experience them.

I feel as though some view RCSC as having broader authority than they actually have and thus are fixated on governing "constitutional issues." They lose sight of the recreational charter of the corporation. My strong preference is for transparency and orderly and objective member participation in the big stuff. I hope this helps elaborate on my view of GOVERNANCE.

 

By your definition a person who does not participate in the activities of the recreation centers/community is less cognitively able to govern due to lack of understanding/interest? What about the former PhD who taught college and won several big cases against towns regarding the disabilities act who is in a wheelchair. Or the business owner who may have lost a limb. Or just in general a competent person who understands life, wants, needs. Maybe a person who does not use the facilities would be better suited to sit on the board and make decisions without prejudice?

 

Josie,

I sense what you are not saying is you do not participate in any activities other than expressing opinions on the activities you do not participate in. That is fine. My hope is that our recreational offerings would be of interest to each of your hypothetical individuals. I view the Board's primary responsibility as working with management to fulfill the mission, vision and values of the organization. These all deal with recreation. If you do not participate, how can you understand what the recreational needs of the community are? By observation? IMHO the "health" of a recreational community is directly correlated to the "participation rate". How many members participate in one or more activities. This participation also builds a sense of community and belonging. This is important stuff.

To use an analogy who would be a better leader of a football team: Someone who participated in the sport as a coach or player or someone who watched football on TV. Just one man's opinion.

John

 

John, this is one of many cases my cousin took on. She is disabled and fought and eventually won this case and others for disability rights. Most of the people she engaged with had no disabilities and didn't understand them. Disability rights advocate fights for accessibility | The Gettysburgian.

So you are saying everyone in a decision making position has to have experience in that field. The CEO of Banner Health is not a doctor.

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Most board members we have had, have/had personal agendas, ie dog park, pickle ball. All I was saying was that someone without an agenda might be more open to ideas and suggestions. What you are saying as I read your words) if the only thing a person does is use the pools, only participates in lawn bowling and nothing else they would be better to serve and understand the whole rec center operation? Someone with a Liberal Arts degree in English would be better to serve if they use the centers rather than a business owner with no degree who does not use them?

I just find it odd that you want more "inclusion" of the members, however they aren't qualified to be considered for a board or committee position if they don't use the rec centers? That works in some fields like Law, Doctors, Surgeons and most professional fields, not volunteer board positions.

Just one womans opinion.

 

Josie, It is good to get into a discussion, not argument, with you. Yes, I am saying active participation provides perspective not held by those who are observers. Board packets are available if you want to run.

 

Not an argument John. You know I have no interest in that. I will tell you that I go offsite and use Silver Sneakers as it is free. RCSC has the same types of classes but can become quite costly. SS also has classes on balance, nutrition, and pain management. With the age of our population, it makes no sense to me why we don't host them here. Their programs are generally included with medicare supplement packages.

You can't have it both ways John. Either RCSC wants to be all inclusive with its members or it doesn't. Just curious, have any studies been done as to what percentage of members use the rec centers? Not including golf.

 

Transfer some of that reasoning to serving on the Board!

If you're a snowbird, or even worse a snowbird from Canada, should you serve as a Director if you don't live full time in Sun City?

I think you miss the pulse of the community even if it's only for 3 months!

Along those same lines, there needs to be a restriction, in the bylaws, on Directors as to how many times in a row can they simply Zoom in for a meeting?

Just say'n!

 

Sounds like RCSC will have so many restrictions soon no one will be able to serve.

 

Well said!

 

Seems to me the RCSC has its priorities straight on this issue. To include a means test of do you actively use the RCSC facilities as a basis to determine eligibility to run for the board, well, iMHO, you have restricted the field of candidates even further. Thought the idea was to cast a wider net?
Then, if you allow snowbirds, who won’t be available to use the facilities for an extended period of time, how can they be considered as an active, acceptable option for being a director since they are phoning in their participation?
Too many exclusionary activities and actions going on here. Reiterate, seems there’s a valid reason, despite the fact of competing laws and verbiage, for the exclusion.

 

I have said repeatedly that the Long Range Planning Committee should have a goal that increases the number of Members that participate in our amenities. Perhaps adding Silver Sneakers would be one way to achieve that goal.

 

Quick question re your statement. No sleep/not enough coffee. Are you saying there too many exclusions? In favor of no snowbirds (some use centers for 7/8 months a year) and there are no meetings during the summer. Reread the whole thread and there appear to be a lot of conflicting statements IMO.

 

Adding SS would keep folks here, possibly leading to using other clubs. They have certified instructors. Sometimes after class there will be coffee at a nearby place. It's an amazing recovery program for people after surgery, chemo or just folks who want to keep fit and flexible. Surprise Senior Center hosts them as does Youngtown YMCA. Checked into the similar classes held at Sundial and they are $5 to $10 per class. That's $25 to $50 per week for M-F, which is a big deal to those of us living on SSI. We pay $650/year, not going to pay an extra $700 to $1500 per year to do yoga 3x per week.

 

How does anyone decide who can be deemed qualified to be a director based upon facility usage? Card use? What if they only stopped off to use the bathroom? That makes them better qualified to be a director than someone who doesn’t use the rec centers but stays abreast of the RCSC activities? Having a snowbird be qualified means they are not present for some portion of time. Is there going to be a way to provide written proof that the absence happens to meet the criteria as that stated in the bylaws? Canadians, due to their own laws, cannot be here more than 6 months a year, so now we have excluded Canadian snowbirds. Also, you can’t qualify for a liquor license if not an Arizona resident.
The point of my comment earlier was, how many ways are there going to be exclusions written into the bylaws and still find an acceptable amount of candidates for director?

 

I was not commenting on Silver Sneakers program, which is a great program by the way,

 

Yes, thx. Re SS I was just pointing out how many more folks might use the centers if we hosted them.

 

The SS program, if offered here, would have to be a special program for RCSC members only due to the restrictions of non-member use of the facilities. If my memory serves me correctly, while on the board many years ago, I asked the GM at the time, about bringing in the program, and her reply was they would not offer the program here because of the fact our facilities are restricted to members only. Hence, the comment about special program.

 

Rather than look at snowbirds, who will be away for some portion of the year, and possibly not claim Arizona as their state of residence, perhaps the need is to look more closely at those still currently employed but may be available to attend the two public meetings twice a month. The work done by the directors is behind closed doors and at the boardroom, which is the site of the newly expanded web access. This could allow for interactive meetings with the directors, if needed. Otherwise, communication between the directors can be done via conference calls and email. There exists no need for directors to be physically present in order to communicate and conduct the business of the RCSC in daily activities.

 

But no decisions can be made and voted on behind closed doors unless they are in Executive Session, because that constitutes a "meeting" and Members are allowed to attend all board meetings!

 

I understand decision making is done at meetings, but the work of the directors is done by the directors out of sight of the members. The need to confer and communicate does not always need to be done physically in person.