What is affordable?

Affordability seems to be a word that is often bantered about when discussing assessments, PIF fees, golf fees and guest fees. Exactly who defines what is affordable and what standards do they use? I am not trying to open pandora's box or stir the pot but would rather offer up a working definition for readers to shoot holes in. So here goes:

Affordable or affordability as far as RCSC is concerned means to offer the same or similar recreational opportunities at a more attractive price than others seeking to compete for customers in their target market.

Viewed in this light, affordable is a relative term and is based on market rates charged by competitors. It is not based on any one individual's financial position. It is also influenced by the socio-economic circumstances of the community's target market. Who are the people RCSC is trying to attract and retain and what can they afford? Admittedly, this may sound heartless when considering that some current customers (community members) are facing financial and physical difficulties. But, to develop a market strategy based on the lowest common denominator will surely result in Sun City becoming a low-income housing project.

As many know, I have been advocating for retaining the services of an experienced urban planner to help RCSC find their way. The first question any urban planner is going to ask is what the current demographics of the community is and what the future demographics should be to assure the community remans vibrant and active.

I would be very interested to hear your views on this affordability thesis.

 

Yes

I can't say I agree with that! I would argue that affordability is, in fact, based on each individual's financial position. As affordable as Sun City is, we have about 10% who can hardly afford to live here!

Is it relative that the cost to live in Sun City West is twice as much as living in Sun City? Sun City West provides fewer amenities than Sun City but it costs more to live there?

What's relative about that? What am I missing?

 

When comparing amenities, I found this description about Mission Royale, located in Casa Grande. They continue to add to their community, forecasting 1292 total units to be added.
They tout:
“Residents enjoy a low-maintenance lifestyle thanks to the Mission Royale HOA, which takes care of grounds maintenance. With more free time, homeowners can participate in community activities. A variety of clubs and interest groups provide the opportunity to live a socially active lifestyle. Homeowners gather on a regular basis to meet with others interested in crafts, sports, and arts. Some popular clubs include bunco, hiking, table tennis, fishing, beading, and more.”
“Mission Royale is near multiple parks and green spaces, such as Pearl Park, North Mountain Park, Desert Botanical Garden, and Dave White Regional Park.”
When talking about offering similar opportunities to market to, I believe we should be also looking at what other opportunities are being offered in nearby cities. The cost of homes in Mission Royale is much more affordable than comparable communities in Maricopa County. When exploring sites such as Realtor.com, it’s quite possible to find resale homes priced very competitive to those in Sun City West for style of home, design, square footage and construction. If looking to compare this community to Sun City, in my opinion, we don’t have the same amenities to offer. We can’t advertise green spaces, or space for small groups to meet with others to enjoy sports or arts. We do have clubs, but most require membership to attend, and most have limited times available to participate in my opinion.
The cost of membership varies depending upon which neighborhood a person buys into. Some are gated, making them more expensive than those that aren’t. Average price for the fees are $132 per month. This is for a 1450 square foot house, 2/2 with 2 car garage and an asking price of $312k.
In my opinion, the amenities offered are not exactly apple to apples. The homes are newer and have better curb appeal, and the lot size varies, but most seem to be around 6000 square feet. The cost comparison makes Mission Royale appear more expensive, but the amenities offered are those being sought in today’s market. How can we compete if we aren’t being competitive? If the market deems these are the things today’s buyers want, are we prepared to move in a different direction to meet the demand or are we going to rely on what we currently offer? Just trying to offer a glimpse of what the competition looks like and what it costs.

 

Tom, I was thinking of affordable in terms of an RCSC goal - to remain affordable. This goal should IMHO be tied to the financial condition of the average current and prospective member.

 

Many areas in Sun City remind me of the low income housing project I grew up near. That project is scheduled to be torn down and rebuilt soon. Just sayin.

 

Do we make the community more attractive to buyers or do we stay cheapest? If we are a social service provider and are looking to support everyone based upon their financial condition, then looking to make Sun City attractive to buyers and maintain the same standards of living for all, means the decline of the community will continue. Can’t be the cheapest and be the most attractive option and maintain the community. There exists so many needs here, and trying to skirt the issue that the needs are going to cost money to implement is a real problem. Burying our heads in the sand isn’t going to solve the outstanding problems we are facing.

 

Before i answer the question, i have to take a stab at this remark: I'm old and arguably St Paul Minnesota didn't have much in the way of ghettos/housing projects, but there were poorer neighborhoods, with some homes in disrepair. Sorry, Tom, i see virtually none of that in Sun City. Every home here was built after 1960 and the vast majority of those first homes in phase 1 are still in good shape. Admittedly, i don't drive through the community like i used to, but my take has always been for the most part, those living here do a pretty good job of maintaining them.

Let's talk affordability, simply because we can't ignore what will be happening over the next 10 years. Shocker: Costs will be rising. Bigger shocker: Costs are rising everywhere. I've written numerous times, the pandemic changed us; the reality is it changed life as we know it. Those supply chain issues were real but they also taught companies there was no such thing as too expensive. Prices went up, nothing is coming down.

I am one of those odd ducks who follow other senior communities and what is happening to them. The Villages of Florida is the largest senior community and is still growing. Would it surprise anyone if i told you there are constant laments in their Letters to The Editor stating they are being priced out of their homes? With a monthly fee of $199, it's 4 times higher than us. Would it surprise anyone if i told you Sun City West, even with their incredible TORCH program; has a plethora of grievances starting with PORA (their home owners association) and running through cries for "selling off their golf courses?"

Just because we live in a senior community that is age restricted, the walls surrounding us does not keep the problems plaguing society out. We know the propensity is to whine about the problems and proclaim the grass is greener somewhere else, more often than not that grass is the same color or in some cases not anywhere near as much.

With all of that out of the way, John's point is on target: We have to be prepared to market our community for exactly what it is; and that's not just a cheap place for seniors to buy into and hibernate. That's not to say it won't happen, but we need to insure that potential buyers understand buying in Sun City comes at a price/cost beyond just the dollar amount they see on their closing documents.

Those early days in Sun City were filled with an endless stream of marketing by DEVCO. Their goal was to sell homes, they did so by selling the lifestyle and featuring it 24/7 across every platform available. Let me be clear, our goal is wholly different than DEVCO's, were not here to make money, we are here to build and maintain a community that relies on volunteers.

Not everyone has to volunteer, they never have, they never will. We just need to make sure those who are looking at our community are aware of the costs beyond what they pay includes that ownership and commitment to be a part of something pretty special. We spent 50 years getting owners to feel like they were responsible and accountable for what we were and then the next 15 telling them to move here and just have fun.

The idea we could become like the other 3000 senior communities was failed thinking and being unwilling to understand Sun City and Sun City West were built on and around two different platforms. Without volunteers, our two communities could not, would not be able to sustain or evolve without exploding the costs in the range other far more expensive communities charge.

Anyone who wants to, can go look at the marketing ads done by Webb and others in the senior market and you will see glamour and glitz; what you don't see is the staggering costs that comes along with them. We can't match them (until we remodel Lakeview) with the stunning, we can destroy them with the affordable coupled with the amazing array of amenities.

Unlike when we opened, we were the only ones in the game. DEVCO's challenge was to get them to uproot and move to the middle of nowhere; our challenge is different. We need to at least take a look at Sun City and encourage them to compare the "relative" value against other communities. From purely a price point, we beat the others hands down. That's both the good news and the bad news, as some will see us as so affordable, we must be dumpy.

Most of us living here, see no such thing; i find nothing "dumpy" about living in Sun City. Admittedly, i'm just a guy, and always just considered myself an average "working stiff." Oddly, that was what made Sun City so attractive, we weren't built for folks who could afford to live anywhere. We truly were the "great social experiment," that melting pot of seniors who came from all walks of life.

The key was for those moving here to take ownership of their new community and nurture it to become their place in the sun. That's not changed, that still should be our goal. Sadly we ran away from social media, ran away from marketing, ran away from asking new buyers to be part of the solution and just move here and have fun.

Trying to change course and set a new direction has proven to be difficult. Board members cling to the concept of control, which ultimately sends members scurrying away rather than drawing them in. Yesterday's Sun City Orientation was a great start...but let me be really clear...just a great start. We have a long road back and to John's point, we best start to figure out what exactly affordability means...both in the terms of actual costs and whether we want or need an deeper investment in both time and expertise?

And to be really concise: All of that includes a great marketing program.

 

I wasn't implying that Sun City was. My only point was affordability is an individual and personal thing.

 

I think for decades housing prices were so low in here, you could easily have a lower income senior move in. Now with all the fees as you explained John, it is no longer the bargain it once was, unless you really want to have a lot of activities going on.
I think the trend to see more rentals will keep happening in here if folks feel it is more reasonable to rent than buy.
I am more for keeping our community updated and adding 2 new sparkling Rec centers being MV and eventually Lakeview. I think this is one of the only ways we can truly get new cash buyers to invest and live here. It is essential that we keep the Rec centers as a place that adds values to everyone living in here. For the very elderly in here who no longer use the Rec center, I would like to see offerings for these folks too. Maybe some social things combined with talks from medical community on how they can stay in good health. Have a luncheon provided. We need to recognize the advanced seniors in here, even if they no longer come to Rec centers.
Overall, we need to keep our major investments ( our Rec Centers), looking current and very nice to TRULY get new homeowners to buy in Sun City!

 

Just sayin from my own subjective perspective. Probably what reminds me most is the cookie-cutter approach to the houses and condos. As a side note, my mom grew up in St. Paul and my dad graduated from St. John’s.

 

The first homes were cookie cutter, but once Meeker showed and put his imprint on home styles they were anything but.

 

And it always will be Tom. I think what John was referring to was more about who is our overall market? The perfect example is Sun City's first 5 years our target market was low to moderate income retirees. Once Meeker arrived in 1965, his influence began to shape a wholly different group of seniors. He understood Sun City could not/would not support just being cheap (affordable), but that buyers would be looking for a great value and a community with values.

He was spot on as homes grew in size, design and features that were unique; enclosed front yard patios, indoor swimming pools and spas, homes with wild angles and in 1974 a fully operational solar paneled home (none sold, too expensive and no one knew what they were). Adding to his genius were rec centers unlike anything south of Grand Ave.

Clearly his target market was anyone and everyone who could afford to live in Sun City. Those days of living in Sun City for 5.5 cents a day were long gone. Sadly we got caught up in just being a cheap place to live and as we have come to find out, being cheap wasn't a recipe for success.

We have to be brutally honest if and when we begin to market Sun City...not everyone can afford to live here.

 

Not too sure about that. Condo prices are pretty much the same as are taxes. Condo HOA fees are lower. Homes are generally larger and newer/more modern so yes more expensive. Smaller homes are similar in cost comparing with same sq ft as Sun City.
SCW:
Membership-Fee-Schedule-2022-23-1.pdf

SC:
Fees – Recreation Centers of Sun City AZ

 

RECREATION CENTERS OF SUN CITY WEST
MEMBERSHIP FEES/Golf Cards -
EFFECTIVE JULY 1, 2024 - JUNE 30, 2025
Here

 

Title of the SCW Membership Fees date on the document is 2024 - 2025. Only providing the link, indicating dates 2022 - 23 is misleading. Facts matter.

 

Chris the content is the same if you compare the two docs. I searched for SCW Fees and that's what came up. Didn't look at the address, was more concerned with content. You really should give people more credit. Some of us look at the full picture, not just the title. Just because they did not change the website address means nothing in comparison with our website failures. They just updated the info on that link. We don't even have a document that is that concise on our website. Seriously Chris is this a hill you want to fight on? Their homeowners can zoom into board meetings, listen and comment. I could go on, but my dogs are hungry.

 

Interesting. I have schematics of every home model name and number in the original Sun City including North of Grand. No wild angles or indoor pools and spas. Well one with a lot of angles 2 doors down from me and was gutted right after the owner died. It was a maze of tiny rooms. Owner told it was one of 3 like it in SC. Indoor pools?

 

So what happened to them and where are they now? If no one bought them did they tear down and rebuild?

With all due respect I did research and ASU was researching solar homes at the time, however there is NO mention of a fully operational solar home in Sun City.

 

I've seen pictures of the indoor pools in real estate ads. I think one was resold about 5 years ago. Lap pools, nothing with any size.