Member Engagement - Who's job is it?

Discussion in 'Sun City General Discussions' started by John Fast, Mar 26, 2025.

  1. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    With all due respect to Tom and Dave's recall abilities, there's really only one true test of the efforts made in the rewriting of the bylaws: Was it successful? There's no rewriting history on this one; it was an abject and an objective failure of immense proportion. We can blame leaks or secrecy, but in the end; their efforts and the outcome sucked.

    I know that's crass sounding, but reality bites. We all try and view life's happenings through our own lens. Using myself as an example, i have been writing since 2010 about the RCSC heading in the wrong direction. The former, former, former GM had a style and a vision i disagreed with. The board bought her ideas lock, stock and barrel. Most of her staff loved her (as did members), she was a truly nice human being. She saw our future as one where every decision was made in the board room. Letting members just enjoy retirement appeared to be our path to a better, brighter future.

    My only reflection point is to each of you reading this; how did that work out for us? Her hand-picked replacement GM was in over his head, we had 20 million dollars in deferred maintenance, our technology was shitty (and that's being very kind), we had an unsustainable golf structure and we had done nothing to groom/nurture the community to take ownership. The good news was; we were a cheap place to live.

    All of which is circular to the point of who cares how we got here or how anyone remembers what happened. All that matters is, did it work? 2024 was a disastrous year on several levels. The newly departed GM told me it was brilliant year. Who was right? Who got it wrong? Again, the outcomes from last year and what happened of late screams at us all.

    One of the reasons for my frustration is, we all too often, fail to learn anything from our mistakes. The secrecy demanded in the last group effort of the bylaws rewrite has been completely ignored and in fact, the board has gone the other way; more secrecy. That is illogical on so many levels.

    I'll just conclude with my message to this RCSC board, to whomever the next GM is, the array of committees functioning and to the readers of this site: Other than what is protected by state statutes, there is nothing else the RCSC does that should be veiled in secrecy. In fact, i would argue, that secrecy we have embraced since 2006 is exactly why we are where we are.

    Think not? The single best event/meeting coming out of the RCSC in as far back as i can remember was the Mountain View Session where it was a wide open affair, with comments answered and topics were freely debated. It was refreshing on its face and was what i had hoped was a new beginning.

    It's beginning to look like i was wrong. We'll see eh?
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  2. SBB

    SBB Active Member

    Bill, I tried to address my concerns with the Board multiple times before posting what I've experienced here. I, too, hoped that we could turn a new leaf - and again, it's not just about the "working group" - it's about the approach and what we all see with the approach, lack of timely communication and transparency, and some self-interests we still see happening.

    Makes me sad.
     
    eyesopen likes this.
  3. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Was all set to go to today’s meeting, but in light of the news of this board of directors actions and the continuing known, willful disregard for member involvement, why bother. I am so angry with the way the board treats the members and feel nothing I can say will make a positive impact. Guess what? I think most of the members feel the same way! I believed this board would listen. I thought they would support the members. I mistakenly believed there was a semblance of concern about the members and their needs. I am sorely disappointed and mistaken.
    I was already severely disappointed with the way the bylaws committee was foisted on us without any communication about who the members of the committee are. Then I was made aware of egregious behavior by one of the directors and apparently is not being investigated and addressed in any form. This type of behavior and conduct does not happen in the dark. It’s got to have been noticed by others yet nothing is being done to stop it. The willingness to completely ignore questions and shut down any dialogue is what made me decide I have no place at the table. Why should I waste my time to go to a meeting where there’s no value in saying anything because not a damn thing will change. Not one F*#•king thing I can offer will make any difference.
    And to Skipper who admonished me for my attitude towards the board and the RCSC, the words I have for you I won’t bother typing. That’s the reason I didn’t go to the meeting today. What I would have said would not have been the request for member outreach but the condemnation of this group of individuals systematically disregarding the members and making a mockery of our system of governance. My tone and intent would have been to admonish the group of directors for shirking their duties and failing to hold themselves responsible for the outreach to the membership in a reputable way. But mostly, I would have had nothing but disdain and contempt for the repeated lack of respect for their assigned duties as accepted when they took the oath of office and they swore they would abide by. Fiduciary duties include integrity, respect and ethics beyond reproach and I see repeated signs this is not the case. There are board members making concerted efforts to ensure that they provide the best possible outcome they can, but their efforts are overshadowed by gross negligence as discussed by fellow members.
    Why bother indeed.
     
  4. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    The soliloquy I had prepared to deliver this morning. My apologies for losing my temper and sharing it on TOSC. My frustration level is evident in the extemporaneous post I made.
    Here is what I was prepared to share at the microphone. Clearly a different message from the one posted above.

    Ladies and gentleman of the board, thank you for volunteering to give of your time and energy to the people of Sun City.
    I am here today to ask for your support in seeking ways to create better outreach to the community and become inclusive of all of the people of the community. It’s very important to start now to create a path of community engagement and nothing says we want to include you, as a member of the RCSC, better than communicating with the members. We need to look at the demographics of Sun City and determine what is the best way to be inclusive of all of the members of our community. Per the Census Bureau, there are probably close to 20% of the membership that are not involved in any form of electronic media. For the myriad of reasons, these people are not using any social media or networking services to be able to communicate with others in their social structure. They are isolated from any outreach the RCSC may provide, now or in the future. Outreach to the members is in critical need of repair and this can be the board to perform this service.
    At one time, the RCSC created a monthly newspaper, delivered through the Sun City Independent, which provided timely information and updates about the community, events, clubs and board meetings and activities. It was extremely well received and was welcomed and looked forward to by the membership. I heard stories of snowbirds taking their copies home to their friends and family so they could share with them what living in Sun City could be. One lady I met said she loved making those “back home” green with envy about her wonderful life in Sun City during the winter months. This is the kind of things that make me happy to be a part of the community of Sun City.
    This board has the opportunity and ability to create a new “old” way of outreach to our members, recreate the Sun Views and get back into the business of community outreach. Put together a team of dedicated staff to make a difference in the community involvement and support for the members. Start a new conversation with the members using print media. Offer information about the clubs, upcoming events and activities, highlight the various directors and the committees and tell them how they can become involved in their community. There are also local businesses who like to advertise so there’s a resource to help offset the cost of the newspaper.
    The RCSC needs to make member outreach a priority and it needs to do it now. There are two standing committees already working on the rollout of the new website, and from what I understand, are continuing to make strides towards the end goal of a newer website. But it’s not fair to the members who don’t have access to this platform to exclude them from the discussion and interaction that the RCSC has to offer.
    I am asking the board to please make member outreach a top priority and to create a new newspaper to be delivered once a month to each doorstep in Sun City. I know it has added value to the community, and it provides the opportunity to make a difference in someone’s life.
    Thank you for your time, it is appreciated.
    This is what I wanted this morning at the microphone to be. I am sorry it didn’t happen.
    I intend to forward a copy of this message to each board member with the hope it can have a positive impact.
     
  5. SBB

    SBB Active Member

    My further Exchange experience today - I can be attacked but a board member cannot even be questioned at an Exchange about a specific and direct issue because of his rejecting the email dialogue with a reply of "done with this conversation". Not the way you handle a conversation with a member - particularly one who has done nothing but put forth significant effort to make Sun City better for all. Control is not surprising.

    Really very unfortunate.
     
    Mark Yates likes this.
  6. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Let's all take a deep breath, count to 100 and relax. For those who weren't in the room today for the meeting, i encourage you to watch the 2 hour Exchange. It's instructional. I would hope the board watches it back as well; it would be instructional. Sitting in the front of the room saying things is easy, because everything that is said can be measured against everything that has been done.

    Was it good? Was it bad? Was it ugly? And to be clear, there was little bit of all of it (good/bad/ugly). Kudos to the two members who started the meeting; humor is an incredible ice breaker. Unfortunately, some of it went downhill from there. Nope, not all of it. I would (and did) argue the game plan on how they are moving forward on the Mountain View remodel is exceptional.

    If only we could get the board to understand the rest of the stuff they are doing should be that transparent. I made the trek to the mic twice, something i prefer not doing. After my first remarks, the response was squishy at best. I intended to leave it be, but the more i heard the rationalization about how and why members were carved out of the selection process the more my ire was raised. Then when i heard the BUTT (and that's a truly big butt), they really valued the members opinions, i had to come back for second bite of the apple.

    I won't repeat any of my remarks other than to ask this one question (which they never answered); How and when did the board advertise/recruit or cajole RCSC members to become a part of the new ad hoc bylaws committee/now named working group ? I'm only asking because i never saw any effort, none, nada, zip, zero. Hell, i didn't even know they had formed one.

    Somebody please step up and tell me how and when this "working group" was formed?
     
  7. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Apr 14, 2025
  8. SBB

    SBB Active Member

    eyesopen likes this.
  9. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    Could someone please show me where in the bylaws it grants the Board the power to form a working group? The prior GM used this scheme to involve members in a review of management proposals for the five-year plan but that was not a Board initiative. If working groups are allowed, what is their authority? What are the appointment procedures? How long do they last? Do they issue a report? Can members attend the meetings? What are the rules of conduct? How can a member be expelled?

    All of these pesky details are specified in the bylaws for committees. Are they also for working groups? Something just doesn't smell right.
     
    Enigma and FYI like this.
  10. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Thanks eye's that was my point at today's meeting, their effort was negligible at best (and that's being really freaking kind). I knew that said they were going to form a committee at the membership meeting which was as many have noted, less than stellar (damn. two birds with one stone; both the call to action for the committee and the annual membership meeting were shit-shows in my humble opinion).

    We have to become more adept at our communication/outreach to members. The argument that nobody really stepped up to volunteer for the bylaws working group was why i went back to the mic. You can't, CANNOT blame the members for your (the board's shortcomings). Sorry, it's not how it works. Leadership starts at the top and as i told them today, as long as they feel they are the ones who have all the answers, not much will change.

    We've been debating on this site for years to have 1 board member be the chair and a member from the committee be the co-chair. Partly to take some of the workload off of their backs, partially to help nurture members in key roles and in part continuity. Lord, that makes sense to me. So what did we hear today, we are going to have 4 board members serving on the bylaws working group.

    Like i said, self-inflicted pain...or is it simply a question of control and letting go?
     
    FYI likes this.
  11. CMartinez

    CMartinez Well-Known Member

    Just so I understand, the recruitment for the committee was done via email blast? I do remember hearing about those interested in applying to get in touch with the RCSC, but no further details were available. How does one get in touch? Was there any phone number offered? I am sorry, but the way this process occurred appears to be a bit murky. And to my point, what if someone wanted to be considered, but didn’t get the opportunity because they don’t have access to an electronic platform.
    I am not going to lose my temper as I did earlier, but this reeks of collusion within the ranks of the RCSC wanting to choose who they wanted, to the exclusion of many. Once again, the hallmark of a good idea sabotaged by the very entity who claimed to want it.
    There exists no validity to this ad hoc committee as being formed within the established RCSC guidelines therefore, this committee does not have any value moving forward. Any work performed by this group of individuals should not be considered as having been performed at the request of the RCSC. The changing of the name to working group is not an accepted practice established within RCSC guidelines. In my opinion, it is a sham.
     
  12. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    EXACTLY John!!!

    I've been scouring thru the Bylaws to find answers to the same questions. Robert's Rules does not address or have anything concerning "working-groups," which tells me that unless "working-groups" were specified in our Bylaws, they don't exist and there's no authority to do so! A Committee is considered a working-group within Robert's Rules but there's no such thing as just a working-group as defined by the Board.

    On the one hand, if you search the Internet for the difference between a "working-group" and a "committee" you will find the difference very subtle. Almost like a distinction without a difference, however, it appears a "working-group" is typically initiated and staffed by people within the "implementation layer" of an organization, meaning the working-group will be entirely staffed by Directors who can then later actually implement the results within themselves at a Board meeting.

    I would define a "Working-Group" to be what our bylaws in Article V calls a "Planning Session" of the Board.

    A Committee is typically not composed with strictly Board members.

    I believe it would be correct that the Board has the authority to create a "working-group/planning session" but only if that group was composed entirely of Directors. Once you start pulling in non-directors it's a whole different story, it becomes a committee.

    As you note, what are the guidelines to create a working-group that would include non-Directors, and what's the mechanism that allows the work of that working-group to be elevated up to the Board? Is there a method of reporting similar to what a committee has to do?

    Look, we both know that the originally specified Ad Hoc Bylaws Committee has been redefined into a "working-group" analogy to simply evade the requirements of the Bylaws, which allows them to blow smoke up our butts.

    It's the old saying, "If you don't know what you're talking about, dazzle them with bullshit." We're being dazzled by this Board...once again!
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2025
  13. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    This is what is so disappointing about where we are; the consensus opinion is the annual membership meeting was a cluster-flock. The solution on not dealing with the bylaws at the meeting was to create a better way to handle the mess they had gotten themselves into.

    Which all begs the question: Is this better...or worse?
     
  14. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    Stupid me and shame on me. Good points from John (too late) but I should have taken a ticket from the deli counter and asked the board just exactly where in the bylaws does it authorize the use of a working-group,... and I'll take a half-pound of provolone cheese to mask the smell of their answer?

    Maybe the opportunity will become available at the Board meeting next week but I doubt it.

    I'd send an email to the Board but as we have all heard today, I might not get an answer for weeks!
     
    BPearson likes this.
  15. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    I was going to suggest the board have the ability to hire a "research assistant" of their choosing to ease the burden. What a great way to groom perspective board members.
     
  16. John Fast

    John Fast Well-Known Member

    IMHO - This points to the need for a legal and regulatory committee made up of retired lawyers and judges.
     
  17. FYI

    FYI Well-Known Member

    It needs a regulatory committee at least with people who understand the corporations parliamentary authority because if they did, they would understand that the guidelines for their so-called "working-group" are the exact same rules in the bylaws that govern committees.

    They need to stop making-up rules as they go and use the excuse that they checked with legal council because we know that the legal council is full of crap as we found out during the 2021 Annual Membership Meeting.

    Don't tell me you're under the advisement of legal council, show me the bylaw that authorized the working-group and allowed the restrictions that they imposed.
     
    Enigma likes this.
  18. Tom Trepanier

    Tom Trepanier Well-Known Member

    Again, ask the board to hire an attorney for the members. This attorney can check the legalities of BOD actions.
     
  19. BPearson

    BPearson Well-Known Member

    Yesterday i went into some detail about the "legal affairs committee." They were retired lawyers and judges who served on the committee and reviewed any and all document changes along with regulatory issues stemming from state and federal legislation. They were thorough, complete and competent. And, to be clear, they were not the final arbiters of the action the board took. We also had an attorney who would/could review their work/recommendations before the BOARD made the final decision.

    We heard at the Exchange meeting about members being involved and making decisions infringing on the board's potential liability and why the board couldn't let the members have so much say. Balderdash i say, the final passage of anything coming from a committee is always on the board. It always has been, however, committees recommendations were always more valued.

    That changed in 2006/2007 when the GM dumped the legal affairs committee because (i shirt you not) most of those serving on the committee weren't carrying an Arizona law license. Lapsed or from another state, this group spent hours researching, arguing and weighing every issue placed in front of them The buffer always was the board and the company hired attorney could overrule every suggestion. It didn't happen often.

    The general manager knew if the legal affairs committee was in her way, rewriting our documents would be problematic. Once gone, every decision was made in-house and worse yet, in her office sometimes in conjunction with board officers. With each passing year it grew worse.

    Sun City was changed forevermore (?), and as we try and claw our way back it is painfully slow. Power and control is a beautiful thing, especially if you are the one holding the power and control. Letting some of it go, not only makes it easier on the board, but it also allows for more vibrant discussions and varying ideas and opinions. It breaks the mold of group think.

    My words yesterday were simply that. Will they listen? Do they care? I know this; every one who loves Sun City, what we have here and what most of us enjoy all want them (the board and management) to succeed. Only time will tell, but the actions and reactions from yesterday regarding the ad hoc bylaws committee, now renamed working group makes me apprehensive.

    We'll see eh?
     
  20. eyesopen

    eyesopen Well-Known Member

    View Bill speaking at the EXCHANGE:
    VIDEO RCSC Exchange Meeting - Monday, April 14, 2025, posted on the RCSC YouTube page, at about 1:44:58
    https://www.youtube.com/@suncityaz7348
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2025

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