The SAC...revisted.

I think and believe and hope our new board will look at the big picture of the community, all the amenities, usage and existing centers and make a careful decision that will enhance us for now and the future. Enhancement to me would mean updating centers, maybe building a new center or two, and also enhancing the outside surrounding as well. Everyone who cares should start inputting your ideas. Have a good day!

 

A hidden piece of Duffeeland Dog Park is how it became to even be considered for purchase. I was looking at the land which is a retaining pond area behind the Sunbowl. I saw the property as a great potential for a divided park, keeping small and large dogs separated. There was the possibility of watering areas as well the potential for a dog wash/hosing off area. I even suggested slats or a view blocking fencing between the two areas so the dogs could be separated and not want to interact with the dogs on the other side of the park. With all of the campaigning kept going, there was a side deal being made with the owners Duffeeland and a realtor who was a board member. To my surprise the offer to sell Duffeeland to the RCSC became the way to go according to the GM. All of the preliminary work and drawings were scrapped putting the dog park property as Duffeeland.
As the property was reviewed it started to show some of the outstanding issues that would be needed. Not to mention the outstanding needs with the surrounding property owners and their concerns. As soon as it was known the RCSC was serious about pursuing the dog park property there was a litany of complaints lobbed by these 2 people.
The deeper into the purchase of Duffeeland got, the more questions arose. Needless to say, property was purchased by the RCSC and the ensuing issues came to the surface and were dealt with as they arose.
I am not saying anything about the deal was wrong, it just popped up from nowhere and the sale completed quickly. Did I have questions about the entire transaction? Yes. Did I always find it strange that the property owner decided to offer the property up at the time it was presented, which coincided with the planning process of the property at Sun bowl.
We now have a dog park available for the members to use and enjoy. The road had a few twists and turns, but we now have a wonderful community amenity. BTW, the park was acquired with the help of the community members. There were open meetings to solicit input from the local residents who would be most likely to use the. Park. These same members put together a framework for a club that supports and helps maintain Duffeeland as the resource and amenity is today. Those meetings with the community stakeholders were another example of the community being involved of great the teamwork can be when everyone has a place at the table.

 

Where?

 

I would like whoever owns that land to do something as well, however the realtor's mantra is location, location, location. There is nothing anywhere near that corner. The write-off is probably better for the owner.

 

Grab those listing sheets and go get those folks!

People take extraordinary measures to protect their homes from wildfires

 

Sorry, but it makes no sense to add more buildings and expenses. We are not a growing community with a growing population and it seems we can hardly maintain the 8 Centers we currently have.

 

It's one of the reasons several of us have argued for a master plan. A simple review/overview of what exists where, how much overlapping takes place and exactly how much of our space sits empty and unused for large segments of the day and night. The ultimate goal is to determine what we have compared to what we need.

The equation has added a new dimension; what can we afford? The cost of everything, from building to maintaining has skyrocketed. Think in these simple terms; back in 2016 half the employees were being paid at or near the state's minimum wage, something around $7.50 and hour. When a state proposition regarding minimum wage was passed, we are now approaching $15 an hour for the same employee...which caused a ripple effect across the other half of the employees. Then throw in the massive hikes in water and electricity we have all seen and one quickly comes to grips with reality. But wait, there's more, we haven't even mentioned insurance increases that have ravaged our own budgets, so imagine what it has done to the RCSC?

As i make these arguments, it really brings me back to the pending Lakeview rec center remodel. I suspect we will be adding square footage, but we will also be eliminating a setting that has outlived its useful life. The other day as i was going to the Long Range Planning committee meeting and walking the ramps going up and down, i was reminded how dated they are, especially for those with handicaps or worse yet in a wheel chair or walker.

It's interesting in that i'll be doing an interview this week over the center and what it offered when it opened. No question, the unique round structure was stunning compared to the first three built south of Grand Ave. "Resort style living" was the claim and all who viewed it were swept away. Of course the presence on the lake, the location, only enhanced the magnificence of the property.

55 years after its opening in 1970 it's dated and the round structure has proven to have its limitations. The drawbacks have long been agonized over and for at least the past 15 years, committees and board members have lusted over the potential for rebuilding and the center becoming the community centerpiece. If they get this right, i'm not sure how much Sun City will need for years to come.

Where most fail to understand the equation, this isn't one of those hire an architect and let him tell us what we need. This is our make or break moment. This is our chance to build for the next two generations of home buyers. I've long argued the property starting with the lawn bowling greens and ending with the bowling alley all need be factored.

Nope, not advocating anything be taken away, or added. My position regarding Lakeview has always been, do it right. We are talking about multiple years of planning and another 3-4 years of building. It should be a community event of historic proportion. The other seven centers will be the satellite settings serving the clubs, sporting venues and related functions. Much like the Johnson Center in Sun City West, only better.

The real tragedy here, and i mean TRAGEDY, is all of this drama could have potentially been avoided. When the Lakes Club come up for sale, had we allowed the members to decide our fate, future and direction; who knows the outcome? Had they supported the idea, we would never have been purchased the Grand Center, the Mountain View remodel would have been long done with the PAC in place adjacent the water and an amazing patio.

Best of all, would be as we began planning for the Lakeview campus renovation, our offices. card club rooms, classrooms, resident gathering space and even a fine dining/bar would/could be in place. The renovation would be inclusive of a walking path (as mentioned in the ASU survey) that would have started at the Lakes Club and woven through and around the entirety of the grounds. Did i mention tragic?

Alas, we are where we are, hopefully we have learned from our folly.

As always, just one man's opinion.

 

I don't know, probably just me. I sure get tired of the woulda, shoulda, coulda. Per the author this has been going on since at least 2006 and nothing changes and has brought us to where we are now. Knowing that there are still comments about building new instead of fixing what we have. It's a very long movie about the definition of insanity.

As far as the "marketing this community to the easy target markets" due to fire, hurricanes, lack of insurance, which included many deaths made me understand what the actual problem is.

 

I am in agreement with Bill's highlighting and dumbing down the affordability issue. I also agree we need to get Lakeview right. To do that we need to hire experts (urban planners) and let them do what they do best. Provide them the raw data and let them do their work. There are simply too many cooks in the RCSC kitchen and too many members trying to be influencers, including current and former board members and management, who do not have any relevant expertise.

 

I always thought that Sun City was about member input or was I misinformed.

 

True. Until that point in time when the decision was made to let the GM move the chess pieces and the members became secondary in the equation.

 

I agree with you and Bill, John. Thinking about our history here. Lakeview was built as a signature building for the residents. Lakeview was also built as a multi-purpose building for that time. I like to look at the WebSpinners on the Del Webb Museum site. You can gain a lot from reading those. There are many pictures of Lakeview hosting parties, square dancing ( when that was popular for that time ) besides being the signature center for new residents. We could continue the tradition with a new community wide plan. Hopefully the planners and architects will keep this in mind as we move forward.

 

As i prepare my remarks for the interview this week regarding the Lakeview center, i am constantly reminded just how big a deal this move north of Grand Ave was. It is all heightened by the fact Webb told Meeker in 1965, fix it or the Sun City experiment ends at Grand Ave. Existing in our collection at the museum is Plan B, where north of Grand Ave becomes light industrial and mixed age housing.

Thank God John Meeker was relentless in his pursuit of excellence. Thank God he was willing to think and see beyond cheap housing for those seniors looking for something better. The Sun Bowl was the first whack at a new start. The Mountain View Center was nice, but nothing like what happened north of Grand Ave.

Viewpoint lake, the Lakeview Rec Center and the Boswell Memorial hospital were unlike anything anyone expected. Then just for shits and giggles they built their model home series (2 of them) on the water front with lake lots that are still the envy of the community. There was also the first of its kind sales pavilion just down from the model homes that was sheer genius.

Both the 1969 "Exposition for Living: and the 1971 "It's Showtime" model home series brought record numbers of visitors through Sun City. It helped DEVCO validate there was no such thing as too big, too modern or too far out there to hold them back. Sales once they crossed north of Grand resulted in twice the number of home sold the second 9 years, than they did the first 9. Stunning in size and scope.

All of which helps me rationalize the current evolution of our commercial property. Arguably. having a major hospital within our walls was a huge selling point. It still is today. Other than Sun City West, go check and see how many other age restricted communities have a hospital where they live? We all know proximity to medical services is often critical to whether a stroke or heart attack victim survives. I also have had the luxury of using several of the newly converted doctors offices in these former retail spaces and they are exceptional. Way better than being jammed in a waiting room with 20 other sick seniors.

With those newer generations of home buyers, who will most likely live longer than we will, having close and unlimited options in their neighborhood is far more important than being able to walk out their door and buy a dress. I won't pretend to know what their shopping habits will be in 30 years, but i know many of them currently are like me: I used to go to Beall's every couple of weeks to see what was new, now if i want something, most often i go online, or get it at Costco.

The reminiscing brings me full circle to my early days on the RCSC board (2012). 6 of my fellow board members had the full play golf pass. Coincidentally, or not, the GM decided that golf was Sun City's future and we needed to invest in updating them. She wasn't wrong (they were some serious problems), but as usual, we had no plan for either them or the RCSC's big picture future. We just did stuff and hoped it worked.

I simply could not understand running such a large organization in that manner. It was illogical, it still is. All of my training and education had taught me differently. When i saw the huge investment in our golf courses, i had two questions: "What did the future of golf look like (yes there was volumes of trend analysis available)? And the second was even easier to answer: What were we going to do in the way of promotion to recover the massive investment we were making in the courses?

This is where my head spins. We answered neither. Hell, we never had the conversation. The assumption was we could just keep throwing money at our golf courses and keep them solvent by practically giving tee times away at far below market value. I knew it was nonsense, but the golphers were happy with cheap golf. We got a reprieve when the pandemic hit, but that was short-lived as they found cheap golf was costing us a fortune, and now we are trapped in the doom loop of investing even more money as will be converting to desert landscaping, new out buildings and a whopping 45 million dollar price tag over the next 10 years.

We cannot afford to go forward hoping we get it right. We have to ask and answer the hard questions, not ignore them and hope it all works out.

The question is, will we?

 

Well if history is an indicator the answer is no. Though I do believe some progress is being made with the concept of planning and thinking things through. More shall be revealed I hope.

I was able to view on YouTube some past history of Sun City version of “Dancing With The Stars.” You performed well Bill, though I would say your partner did carry you. And it did look like a fun community event!

 

There is no doubt about it, we have many that are very well versed in the history of Sun City. It takes a great deal of passion to be involved to such a high degree about any subject. I don’t read them anymore because IMO it’s the same info in a different order. History doesn’t change, what we all did yesterday will remain the same.

My issue is there are people who have answers but not willing to do anything other than volunteer for a board of committee position, and that’s already been called futile because it’s usually 7 against 2 or 8 against 1, so one or two or even three people with new ideas will never accomplish anything. It’s promise after promise only to be broken, or ignored hoping the ‘obtuse’ residents will forget.

I did see several new folks with new ideas and I don’t think they will go away. At least I hope not. Even though she was despised by many the last person I remember who worked the residents was Anne Randall Stewart who pounded the pavement to collect signatures for her cause. She was relentless in her goal, going door to door talking to everyone. If the folks on this site who claim to know how to fix all things Sun City had 1/16th the determination, energy and endurance Anne had things might get done. She persevered through all the hate and name calling, all the vile things said or printed about her, and still are. You may disagree with her, but you can’t take away the fact that she worked very hard for her purpose. I have not seen anyone do that since.

 

I had hoped that video had quietly slipped into the nether-world, but alas, it still haunts me. Kidding of course, we had a blast putting that first show on and they stayed with it for many more years. Mercifully, i was never asked to perform other than as a judge. I will say this, the paso doble will never be my go to dance step, and you were spot on Tom, without my partner, i would have been lost.

The rest of the story is the initial plan was for the entire cast to be made up of board members. You saw how well that worked out. I think one other board member stepped up and the general manager also stepped in. I had lobbied long and hard for more community events and so refusing was hardly possible. The young troop of dancers were spectacular and they were even smarter to let the GM win with her AZ two-step. Did that insure they kept getting booked year after year? Nuh, they were that good and the huge crowds loved them.

Back to your point Tom, we know from our history, members viewpoints were both highly valued and desperately sought. Committees served with purpose, direction and respect for their recommendations. Surveys were a regular feature and carried weight in the decision making process. In 2006, a decision was made by the board to back away and allow the general manager more of the workload. With each passing year, members meant less in the grand scheme of the decision making process.

The last two years has seen a marked improvement. That exception has been a general manager doing things that made the board look bad. Couple that with his overspending of the budget and the unrest in the community is valid. Relationships are earned and this crew has a ways to go to do that.

 

That's what I was told as well. Got a DM when it first dropped. Can't remember who, good thing I save everything. Will look it up and DM.

 

That's good history as well Bill. I remember not too long ago that when you would drive thru SC here, you would see all these really green and lush greenbelts between the duplex homes along with many rows of decorative orange trees. It gave this place a very resort feel, that was very unique and attractive. I am sad that water has become such an issue now that the greenbelts have now become dirt belts. It is very unattractive. I wish more HOAs would consider at least doing a one time investment, and putting stone landscape in. Many areas in SC looking very shabby because of this. Does anyone want to weigh in on this?

 

It's the desert. I remember when my folks first moved here, they weren't fans of people planting anything that was not indigenous to the area. We grew up in Oak Lawn Illinois, lush, green, but water was not an issue. My dad used to say people come from all over the country and bring things to plant because they want SC to look like "home".

To be honest I don't really notice the green belts and brown grass anymore. They were not supposed to be here anyway. The beautiful wildflowers that grow here naturally are referred to as weeds, which I think is funny.

What I do notice is the crime. Within the past 4 months on my street alone there was 1 stabbing (5 houses from mine) and 2 assaults. I was driving south of Grand Saturday and saw about 3 or 4 boys/men smoking crack. MCSO SUV pulled up and they ran like hell. Way back in the Summer my dogs started barking at 3:30 am. I got up and the motion light was lit on the front porch and someone was walking back and forth on my porch. I now have 3 floodlight cameras and a ring doorbell. ***** I put a large piece of furniture in front of my door before going to bed as well as a safety bar on the sliding doors in back.

My neighbor got ripped off for $900 from door to door "yard work" people. I am his attorney-in-fact/agent (even though Dave says I am not) and felt responsible. He will not let anyone in (unless it's a friend) without me there now. I hired a roofer from the SCHOA recommended list who was wanted by the California FBI for drugging and raping a girl. He skipped town and came here. HOA would not take him off the list even tho I sent the wanted info.

You want things pretty, I want things safe.

*****Dave you asked me how I could afford this before. Purchased from Best Buy on the 12 or 18 month same as cash CC. Thought I would mention it again because you usually ask/tell me things a few times, like "the Bear" thing.

 

One of favorite Arizona authors is a former AZ Republic newspaper columnist; Jon Talton. His historically based fictional novel character, David Mapstone, is just fun reading. His columns in the local papers were hard core as he angered many a local politician and land developer with his blunt writing style. So much so, the Republic let him go and he moved to Seattle and took a job for the paper there.

As an Arizona historian, he wrote often about his local neighborhood with tree lined streets and major green belts that helped cool summers. He lamented often over the crushing number of housing developments and the resulting explosion of shopping centers and all things blacktop and concrete that were creating problems bigger than we could handle. He may have been right.

Water is and will be a major hurdle. Oddly enough, in one of the letter's written to us (Sun City residents) and placed in the to be opened 2026 time capsule, the authors claimed we would be using desalinized water from the Pacific Ocean. Clearly that isn't the case and as new housing projects are built, the question is simple: Where the hell are they getting their mandatory 100 year water supply? Some have argued it's all a sham.

Locally in Sun City, we have 383 attached dwelling home owners associations. Like condos across the country, costs are exploding with insurance being the leading culprit, followed closely by monthly maintenance fees especially those with massive green belts (Gemini Twins). Garden Court Apartments and others like them have faced the dilemma but usually on a smaller scale with less green space.

The better run ones have costed out for the long haul. Convert to desert landscaping, or factor increased water rates and the twice a month maintenance fees to see what makes sense...and more importantly what the members of their association want. It's always a tough choice because the out of pocket conversion is a big hit for owners but over the long haul is often cheaper. Several did it years ago, others now are struggling with the costs of everything adding to their burden.

I was a little surprised to read your remarks Eileen, i haven't seen HOA's just let their green belts turn to dirt. Not saying they aren't out there, i just have not seen them. I've seen several in the midst of the conversion. I've seen many that have done partial conversions where they have tried to keep small grassy areas with more rock. I've also seen some great conversions where they added Arizona plants that need less water and still give the rock added a small sense of greenery and growth.

In that this is thread is about the SAC, it will be interesting in coming RCSC conversions, will they too move away from the maintenance and water costs associated with grass? Mountain View has virtually no green grass maintenance while Lakeview has that large section of grass and trees bordering Del Webb Blvd and Thunderbird. When they remodel, i suspect it makes sense to use that green space for parking and try and incorporate the greenery into the new center and accompanying water front.

It's the new normal whether we like it or not.

PS. I have the Talton/Mapstone series bagged and ready to be borrowed to anyone interested. Just let me know.