The PAC - Final Destination

RCSC Theater Proposal


I have heard many opinions on the Recreation Centers of Sun City (RCSC) proposed Performing Arts Center, in fact, too many to remember. Equally as numerous, is the amount of times I have changed my mind about it! So…after much thought and consideration, and admittedly sharing the many thoughts of others, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps the following alternative offers the best use of our Preservation and Improvement Funds (PIF) and our annually assessed dollars.


But first, consider this; we live in a land-locked community where there is no more room for growth, meaning the Community will always have a pretty much fixed population. With no growth there really isn’t any need to continue to build new buildings.


First of all, what are some of the concerns? A new building requires finding a location not only large enough for the building, but additional space required for parking. It also will increase our annual expenses, for such things as maintenance, staff, utilities, and insurance.


The most recent recommendation from the architect was insane! It made no sense to me to tear-up a perfectly good, well utilized, as well as being an expensive to maintain amenity like the Lawn Bowling Courts at Lake View to not only build a new building, but also with the promise to replace the Lawn Bowling courts at a different location?!?!? Let’s just throw more good money on top of bad! We’ve already spent thousands of dollars on no less than three architectural firms to come up with a plan for Mountain View and the PAC, only to be no farther into the process than we were years ago!


We have already increased the number of our Recreation Centers when we purchased and built the Grand Center and Vintage Vehicle Clubs building. Do we really need to continue to build new buildings? We already have our plate full with just keeping up with routine maintenance, the scheduled renovations of the existing Rec. Centers and proposed new golf maintenance buildings. So…here’s what has been suggested as an alternative that I’ve come to agree with.


Sun Dial! Why? The Sun Dial building checks several boxes that can’t be checked at any other location.

· First and foremost it fulfills the Board’s fiduciary responsibility for spending money wisely.

· Sun Dial is centrally located within Sun City

· No need to find a location

· No need to build a new building

· Basically already wired and technically set-up for performances

· Has the second floor control room to video record performance or show movies

· Has a kitchen, more on that later!

· Parking is not a problem.

· Several points for traffic ingress and egress

· Already has a Ticket Window

· The breezeway is the perfect place to congregate before a performance

· There is still room to extend the building if necessary for storage without infringing on parking


Many theaters now use projection to create backdrop images rather than building physical sets and props eliminating the need for a large storage area.

And if they’re not going to tear down the existing building at Mountain View, why can’t that building still be used for the Players to practice their performances, leaving the Sun Dial auditorium available to be used by others?


What would a theater at Sun Dial possibly look like? Consider this. The center portion, which is the Main Auditorium at Sun Dial, can primarily be used for the Players and other small venues. Retractable tiered theater type seating that will only extend from the back wall of the auditorium to about 1/3 or 1/2 the distance to the stage, the rest of the flat floor space can use multiple banks of theater type removable seating which will better accommodate those using walkers, wheelchairs and the handicapped.


Here’s the best part! Sun Dial does, after all, have the kitchen facilities that are used by many Clubs for their annual parties, etc. The flat floor space would allow for the occasional set-up of tables and chairs for a diner theater performance, and have a catering service come in to provide the cuisine!


During those twelve paid Winter Concert Series performances, when they open both wings for additional seating, they could continue to just set up the tables as they do now or perhaps partial smaller retractable tiered seating and/or more banks of removable theater seating.


I suspect they could extend a back portion of the existing building without even infringing on the parking lot to store the additional seating. Strategically located access would allow the additional banks of seating to simply be rolled directly into the auditorium!


YES, I believe Sun Dial is the perfect location and will provide fiscal responsibility and more bang for the buck. And I think the whole transformation could be done for much less than 14 million dollars and we can get on with the renovation at Mountain View once and for all?


I believe the pros strongly outweigh the cons by a large margin. If anybody can come up with a good reason not to use Sun Dial I’d like to hear it…and don’t tell me it’s about damaging the floor! The floor can be protected!


Just my opinion

Tom Marone

Sun City

 

Thanks, Tom. Interestingly enough, both John Fast and myself recommended Sundial during our term on the Board with a lot of the same ideas you have shared.

We were told that it wouldn't work. First, Men’s Club Bingo wouldn't be able to fit there for their Thursday night Bingo. We were "scolded" saying Sun City couldn't afford to NOT have Bingo because of all the money they donate.

Second, we were told that Sundial was the only place that the Arts and Craft Fair after Thanksgiving could be held.

Third, we were told that the Winter Concerts needed to be there.

There may have been other downfalls that I am forgetting.

My question was...did Del Webb start the clubs in order to bring in money? Or, was it to promote community and fun? Couldn't Bingo be held in a smaller venue, with another club sponsoring if the Men’s Club didn't want to hold it two nights? And, once again, did we move here to help clubs raise money? Why does the Men’s Club need so much money?

The Arts and Crafts Fair. Is that a necessary happening here? There was talk from management that safety concerns regarding the food trucks was brought to light. Also, until they got it resolved, rides in golf carts to and from parking spots was another concern. Another concern I heard was folks had to walk too far. And, do the individual members who "sell" their wares at the fair need that money? Does some of that also come back to RCSC? Could it be on a smaller basis at another one of our centers? Or, is it really a necessity? Couldn't the clubs "rent" space in one of the many church halls in SC to have the same type of fair?

And the concerts. Couldn't they be booked for more than one night to allow more to attend in a cozier, more comfortable setting?

There is something called Brainstorming! It would give interested Members a chance to participate; to have their idea(s) presented. Have we tried that? This community has Members with a wealth of knowledge from their backgrounds. Let's tap into that knowledge. They say no idea is a bad idea.

Once again, Management (I have no idea if the Board was informed of this) is proposing a "vision forum" to develop ideas of what Members want at MV. It's mentioned on the December Management report sent out this past week to those who receive the e-mail blasts. That item on the agenda can ONLY BE ADDRESSED BY BOARD MEMBERS on Thursday. More $$$$ spent? More time wasted? Why are we using the same company? Is that another fee or will it be included in what we've already paid out?

I liked the idea of Sundial, but my gut says to go ahead with Plan M at MV. It was voted on by the SAC committee,; liked by many of the attendees of four Town Halls; and could be started while a Master Planning Committee ( again, trying for more Member input) could be started for all campuses.

We don't need another building to maintain. We need to be sure we can meet the AZ Water districts requirements and fix our IT/Technology first! There is an awful lot of RED on our Management reports for December. Is anyone else concerned besides me?

Jean Totten

 

Sounds to me like the only real issue is scheduling? That's not the end of the world if it needs too be! Just a little creative thinking, something they seemingly lack?

 

Sorry, Tom, I had to edit my comment while you were commenting. But, you are right. Scheduling. And do we need the income from Bingo and the Fair? Creative thinking! Brainstorming! Using the flat floor space that we already have available to good use!

 

One related thought I want to mention is the “master plan”. In mentioning this I want to include a preliminary statement. What I am suggesting is not meant to disparage any person, committee, employee, board member etc., who has given their time and energy to find solutions to issues affecting this community. I’m wondering if it makes sense to have many of the same people from lrp, SAC, budget, etc, working on this “master plan”. Won’t we end up discussing/debating the same issues and solutions? I believe we need to focus in on completing the MV project, preferably with Plan M as main vision. Set a priority and let’s get it done. Just my humble opinion.

 

Both bingo and the craft fair are important and long standing events. I'd be hesitant to treat them as throwaways, or telling everyone they need to be cut in half. I know i have read one of john Fast's comments regarding the Sun Dial being used; the question for me is exactly how much space does retractable seating take away? Obviously that is a key factor in how this would play out. I've been backstage many times and Tom is right, they would need to add to the backside of the building.

The other rub is the Sundial auditorium is the flat space that has the highest utilization; somewhere around 60%. Many of the other smaller spaces were running between 20-30% if memory serves me. The challenge is in trying to reschedule elsewhere, most venues don't even come close to meeting the needs of the events being moved.

To be clear, i'm not opposed if there is a workable solution. I don't think we achieve an outcome that will make members happy if we just do something that drastically changes the lives of those clubs that rely on the Sundial auditorium. The bugger in the process has always been the question: What do we do with the Players? No matter what happens at MV, they have to go somewhere while it is closed down.

All of which leads to the bigger picture of the Lakeview remodel and do we try and include in the rebuild a large flat space that is convertible with retractable seating and a large open venue able to meet the needs of the members while delivering a much needed community center. I would think for the long term, two large venues (Lakeview and Sundial) would give us greater flexibility and we could begin to convert many of the under-utilized flat space rooms for the clubs needing more room.

It's why many of us have long argued for a master plan so that we were not only using space better, but as we added or evolved we did so with a purpose. What was the old adage sometimes attributed to Yogi Berra: “If you don't know where you are going, you'll end up someplace else.”Lord knows that's been the case for far too long in Sun City.

 

The whole idea behind retractable and removable seating is so the Sun Dial auditorium isn't permanently unusable as anything but a theater!

Compromise and scheduling can still accommodate Bingo and the Players. And judging my this year's Craft Show, the minimum amount of room retractable seating would occupy when retracted is minimal.

 

Tom - someone has the facts on retractrable seating. I'm not sure if it's Mike Wiprud (possibly). I think even when it's retracted it takes up a sizeable amount of floor space that could potentially limit the SunDial floor space for other events. I think its worth asking at the next Exchange for the pros and cons. I don't recall if this was a discussion during one of the 5 Year Planning Team meetings or not, but I know there has been some discussion about it taking up more space than expected - of course it would depend on the amount of seating needed/but it's an important consideration.

 

https://www.audiencesystems.com/uploads/Theatre_seating_telescopic.jpg

 

Try as hard as I might, the photo of the retractable seating wall wouldn’t merely copy.
If you open the file, it is visible as to the wall size and the men standing in front of the wall of retractable seating. The photo I chose is of theater seating, not sports or other activity seating. The extended seating is about 12 rows with cloth upright seating resembling theater configuration.
So even when retracted, there is a sizable footprint.

 

The answer is retractable seating is fully ADA compliant - we met with the top company in the industry and confirmed this.

John Fast, Nov 16, 2024

I do not buy the bull and did some clandestine research. An addition on the back of the Sundial stage and retractable seating could be completed for less than $4M which would provide the Players (and other performing groups) 95% of what they are requesting. No parking issues and little disruption to ongoing operations. The center could remain open during construction. No duplication of expensive AV equipment. And, I hope you are sitting down, the retractable ADA compliant seating would accommodate an audience of 550 with easy drop off and pick up at either side of the building. Bingo could still accommodate over 1,000 players in the Sun Dial when the seats are retracted. No homes would be impacted. The $14++M PAC building being pushed by the board may accommodate 300 patrons with no viable parking plan.

At the candidate forum on Monday I want folks to ask why this option, which costs $10M less, is not even being considered.

Best regards and God Bless,

John

John Fast, Nov 16, 2024

 

Thanks for the responses, as obviously size matters, as does the quality of the seating used. Comfortable has long been the cry. I know no one member who has spent more time and energy on this than Gary Osher. He began looking years ago, mainly because too many folks think of retractable seating as what they remember from their grade school/high school days; clearly its not.

The difficulty is obviously in how much space do we lose? The bigger difficulty is the current board has zero apparent interest in even considering Sundial.

Had only we allowed the members to vote/discuss the purchase of the Lakes Club in 2013, there is a good chance none of this would be happening. Think about that for 30 seconds before anyone dismisses the notion the members should have a voice.

 

Take a look at that photo posted by SunCityGal and you will notice that the depth (floor space) requires much less space than the height!

https://www.audiencesystems.com/uploads/Theatre_seating_telescopic.jpg

They've already pissed away thousands of dollars on 3 architects, I'm sure you can have a representative(s) from a retractable seating company come for FREE and evaluate the space and tell you exactly what can be done? There are many options available from a variety of companies who I assume would love to work with the RCSC?

 

Seems like as one person claims changes started happening in 2006. Makes me think woulda, shoulda, coulda has been the mantra.

 

Pretty cool. Power operated retractable seating

 

I like the idea of retractable seating for an auditorium so the space can be used for other activities and events. While sitting in the Sun Dial auditorium during the Holiday Celebration, I looked to try to envision how it would work in that setting. Since it is such a large area and the stage is in the middle of the room, it would take a long line of seats to reach the middle of the stage. That seems unfeasible to me unless you were expecting very large audiences. However if the retractable bleachers are moveable so they can be situated in the middle of the room in front of the stage, it might work. The logistics would need to be worked out. Good idea, not sure it is workable there. A professional would be able to determine the feasibility. Would it hurt to ask one of the vendors that make these seats to come out and see if it is possible?

 

We utilized retractable seating at a school I worked at. The seating set up nicely. Not gym bleachers!

 

It only hurts those Directors who are not willing to explore their options.

It's foolish and a disservice to disregard a recommendation out of hand without first finding out the true feasibility of the suggestion.

This Board has an agenda and it seems that no matter what options are being offered, their mind is made-up! Member's be damned!

 

I think it's worth a discussion. I also looked around the SD audiorium and wondered if this type of seating is feasible. There are a lot of doorways in this facility that may be an issue, but who knows unless a qualified vendor can tell us. Let's get a "final answer" and just put this to rest so members can be satisfied that it has been asked and answered.

Decisions need to be made and members satisfied. We can dance around these issues forever and we will mired in the muck for another decade. We can't afford it, financially or politically. Previous Boards have been criticized to he## and back for either not making decisions or making decisions that were so overly costly that they would never fly; now this Boatd made a decision to hire an architect to survey all of the RCSC properties, make a recommendation and that was fraught with lack of transparency, personal agenda, not enough input, rush to a decision - I'm not passing judgment on any of it - I'm just stating what's happened. The bottom line - haven't we waited long enough for MV over and over and over? I would hope cooler heads can prevail and a final decision can be made to build a quality recreation facility at MV, get a design done with input from as many members as they need from as many locations/sources as possible in the first quarter, design it in the 2nd quarter, and start digging no later than end of 3rd quarter. Impossible? Again, I ask - WHY would RCSC spend nearly $13M to RENOVATE an auditorium in a really old building (if its' even possible) when the next facility up is LV. Why don't we put our efforts in to making LV the community center, visittor center, PAC in a single facility - There is little appetite for another standalone facility. Anywhere - including Bell. My opinion - a standalone on the corner at Bell just doesn't seem appealing, at least in my mind, and in fact, the feasibility study in 1994 for a PAC aruled out both Bell and MV - way back then.

The whole MV Plan M was hijacked at the very end when 3 drawings were suddenly shown at a Town Hall - at least that's my recollections. If we try to go down that path again without a qualified planning consultant that can maintain control of this process, my money says we are doomed to continue this cycle. We will just continue to wash, rinse and repeat this vicious cycle that we are on if decisions can't be made. Some say this is the price we pay for self-governance. Really. Why is this different from an elected local government that changes it's elected officials from time to time - every year they have elections. They have paid staff and they also have outside consultants from time to time that they rely on. What don't we have? Engineering staff. We have to hire them at a significant cost. A planning department. We have to use Maricopa County resources OR we have to hire community planning consultants. Yes, they cost money. Our failure to spend money for this very important process has cost us dearly. Just like not spending money for strategic planning. Or on-going Board training - heaven forbid. Or essential staff traing - really?

Sorry, Tom. Now, I hi-jacked your post. My frustration is on full display. I really hope 2025 can be a new beginning - somehow. There are good ideas out there. Continuing to go down rabbit holes won't move us forward. Happy New Year - at least I hope so.