The SAC...revisted.

RCSC dog clubs “make it better for pet owners here in Sun City,” and our residents.

There are two sanctioned RCSC dog clubs.
Best Friends Dog Club - $10 member fee
Duffeeland Dog Park Club - $5 member fee

Specifically, Best Friends Dog Club benefits dog owner members and the entire Sun City community by providing better socialized dogs, and more responsible dog owners. It is also a social club focused on providing a positive, courteous, dog friendly environment for RCSC members in good standing. The club is dedicated to education, training, and fun activities for both dog owners and dogs.

The Mission of the Best Friends Dog Club is to provide for the needs of dogs and dog owners of Sun City including:
•Training: Obedience & Behavior, Sport, Therapy and Scentwork
• Social Events with and without their dogs.
• Health & Nutrition Information
• Lost or Found Dog Alerts
• Product Recalls
• Dog food & treat donations to Banner Olive Branch Senior Center

• How RCSC Articles of Incorporation qualifies BFDC:
Article III
The general nature of the business in which the Corporation is engaged is as follows:

To do anything and everything lawfully necessary in the interest of the Members of the Corporation, including, without limitation, the following:

1. To establish and conduct a general social, cultural, recreational and amusement enterprise for the benefit of its Members …(long list of examples)

2. To coordinate, implement, and aid the various recreational and social clubs which are now or which may become duly recognized as such by this Corporation.

3. To promote cooperation in all matters of interest and benefit to the residents and/or homeowners of the area within the bounds set out in Article I, who become and remain Members of this Corporation.


BFDC TRAINING CLASSES OFFERED
OBEDIENCE AND BEHAVIOR
Puppy Class (3 to 8 Months)
Manners 1: Essential Obedience and Companion Skills
Manners 2: Mastering Obedience in the Real World
Manners 3: Canine Good Citizen Advanced Obedience and Community Manners
Out and About
Impulse Control: Calm & Collected Canine
Positive Encounters: Socialization for Confidence

RALLY CLASSES
Beginning Rally
Intermediate Rally
Advanced Rally

AGILITY CLASSES
Agility Fundamentals
Beginning Agility
Advanced Agility
Intermediate Agility

SCENTWORK CLASSES
Beginning Scentwork – The Nose Knows
Intermediate Scentwork
Advanced Scentwork

THERAPY AND TRICKS CLASSES
Therapy Dog Test Preparation
Trick Time: Fun Training for a Happy, Healthy Dog

For details of each course: https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-32467980/documents/28198fac62bf4792851836f2c7d76efe/2024 Oct to Dec Class Descriptions.pdf

 

So Duffeeland is ok for Carole because they pay an annual park use fee, but even though BFDC:

"Best Friends Dog Club benefits dog owner members and the entire Sun City community by providing better socialized dogs, and more responsible dog owners. It is also a social club focused on providing a positive, courteous, dog friendly environment for RCSC members in good standing. The club is dedicated to education, training, and fun activities for both dog owners and dogs."...EO

provides more purpose, a good social environment, recreation for our seniors, and heaven forbid "fun" for our seniors it should not have a place here. I bet a lot of dog owners who live here would love this info. 70 new members joined BFDC due to the use of the indoor facility this past summer. No wonder there is a recall petition in the works.

If the Library and PAC drew that many folks to the meeting I wonder what Carole's post would generate. I would guess a lot more than half of the residents have dogs they absolutely adore.

 

Timing!!!! This just posted on ND. Don't want to post name, and can't post photos but you get the idea, and Duffyland people pay to use the park. Lifes mysteries!

https://nextdoor.com/p/47M82mBwjqMq...xtras=NTgyMDgwNTU=&utm_campaign=1733178443716

 

I was a caregiver for both my parents until they died plus I worked full time. What does that have to do with the dog club. Do you know you don't have to pay to use the pools or exercise rooms/equipment? Do you have any idea what the upkeep of all of our swimming pools cost? Or the cost for exercise rooms, equipment, electricity etc. So in your world this dual system works fine because you say it should be so. If we go by your account of BFDC not contributing money to RCSC then we should close the pools and exercise facilities unless people pay a separate fee. The community pays for people to swim, even if we don't swim. Your argument does not hold water, and that's why I am in favor of the recall. Too many board members have tunnel vision.

 

I am not in favor of the indoor dog park either. If it is a desired amenity, it should take it's place on the PIF list rather than displace other projects that have been on the list for years.

 

It's always an interesting discussion regarding needs and wants. And, it is exactly why the lament and importance regarding data was always so on point. Without good data (sorely lacking given our sad state of technology), we were often left to the emotional arguments fostered by the sudden appearance of small but loud groups of members demanding their wants be met.

There's no upside in pointing to differing groups or clubs. We all want what we want. The real question has always been what do we need to help market Sun City and keep it relevant? Theoretically, that relevancy should be based on our needs being met as the club grows or their requests for additional space fit the added costs that comes with growth.

The classic example was Duffeeland dog park. It was a missing amenity that other age restricted communities offered. It had been privately owned and run by a resident (Bob Knight) and when he was moving out of Sun City he offered it to the RCSC for a very reasonable price. We had the land appraised and we bought for about half the assessed value.

Carole Martinez, when she was elected to the board, campaigned on building a dog park on the Sun Bowl property. When Duffeeland came along, that effort died. Going into the dog park business was always fraught with pitfalls, but the reality was the community needed at least one park to be competitive. We've seen over the years the problems that came with ownership, but it was the right thing to do for the community.

It's clear, everything has changed for us as a community with a massive infrastructure of amenities. We skipped along for years pretending we could get by on the cheap. It was short-sighted and came at a horrible cost. Rash decisions made at the highest level of the RCSC left us all holding the bag as the cost of catch-up following the pandemic has created budgeting nightmares.

It is folly to think we can or even need to add more buildings. I have always supported replacing existing rec centers and properties, but the idea we need to keep adding to the exploding costs with more square footage under roof is crazy. The realities of needs rather than wants has to be first and foremost as we look to the future.

Finally, let me say, any board member who thinks or responds to how we pay for those needs by just saying it doesn't matter because it is coming out of PIF, simply fails to understand their role as stewards of the governance process. Ultimately, every dollar comes from members, whether at point of sale or from the yearly lot assessment.

And, we absolutely have to figure out better utilization of the space we have under roof. Way too much of it sits idle for huge sections of the day, week, month and year. Understanding that comes at a cost as well will be the first step in figuring out how we should be moving forward. Form a space allocation committee and let them get a firm grip on how to better utilize what we have before we add anything else.

 

Bill,

You are spot on! It appears to me we allocate capital to the "hobbyists with the loudest lobbyists". That is simply not sustainable or fiscally responsible. I agree building additional buildings is just plain nuts when our utilization of existing space is below 50%. I just don't think certain people on the board get it! It is like they have formed an impenetrable reality distortion field around themselves.

I like to think that I am capable of learning from everyone and one of the things I learned from Jean was the importance of outreach and member engagement. It took me longer to recognize the reality of what she was saying than it should have but I totally get it now.

Hey folks, if the majority of the members are not on board any major expenditure RCSC makes is doomed to failure (in my opinion).

Best regards and God Bless,

John

 

I do not recall any discussion about an indoor dog facility during any SAC meetings. All of a sudden it ends up on the PIF plan? Who may I ask is on 1st? Ridiculous planning in my estimation and humble opinion.

 

Wasn't that Kat's pet project? I know it was mentioned at one of the board meetings, someone was against it and if I remember correctly Kat came right out of her chair. Dang, now I will have to look that up to be sure.

 

I believe it was voted on and passed at a board meeting held before the SAC was formed, but no money was set aside for it. Money was later voted on and passed to study the concept. I believe this happened after the SAC was disbanded.

 

What is the benefit to the community from the dog club? What form of service do they provide to the residents of Sun City? Are they ever involved in adopting of dogs in need? Do they offer free or reduced cost veterinary services to the community? When I look at the amount of money given back to the RCSC by the Men’s Club and others, I see a significant contribution to the community as a whole. What is the significance of the dog club and how much do they give back? All I see are constant expenditures for the benefit of a small group of people.
A review of cost incurred because of the dog club versus value offered would reveal a significant loss of money to the RCSC and to the community. I love animals of all kinds, but the two legged ones are being greedy in their relationship with the community and the RCSC. I understand special interests, but the dog club takes it too far.

They sound pretty worthless here. I still feel an indoor space in summer is necessary. Why can't what worked in the summer of 2024 continue on?

 

The utilization of space needs to be examined closely. Allocating dedicated space for a certain activity needs to be done with great scrutiny. When walking through any center with allocated space and it’s empty for a great deal of the time means that is dead air being air conditioned and heated with a cost associated with it. These clubs need to find a way to share space and days as to allow the greatest resource for each club. Places like the Men’s Club use all of their space daily and have shown that being resourceful with the space, can accomplish many great achievements.

 

eyesopen, I cannot support an indoor dog arena as a fully dedicated space. To much open time when not being utilized, as evidenced by the current dedicated space the club has. The rehashing of the club’s purpose once again walks around their club structure of offering those classes to members only, not to the community as a whole. Then one cannot bring in a mutt as they have breed restrictions.
I was on the board when BFDC came into being and it has been a constant problem with them wanting another handout for the club. I said it again, building an indoor area is folly. Then the indoor arena will need grass for the dogs feet then it will need skylights because the area is dark. With this particular club it wants are never ending.
The utilization of space needs to be a need, not a want. There’s no need for an indoor dog space.

 

Amen sister! I said this months ago and, of course was pilloried for what I said including that I was a liar with no proof of course. Ultimately this is a social and party place for the dog owners as per the club president.

 

So if the space BFDC used this past summer is available why not let them use it during the brutal summer months? I will not use it for my dogs, but others will, and they will benefit greatly from it.

You said:
Bill,
You posted “Sun City is still one of the best options for retirees of modest incomes or those still working of average means to select as their destination of choice. Whether in retirement or still on the job, our community has something for everyone and at affordable costs”
May I ask what it is that this community has to offer these days? I don’t include clubs, as not everyone is a club person and are not inclined to want to join. So, let’s say you don’t play golf, there are no clubs of interest, what else is there to do? What does the average resident get in return for their $600 a year? I am truly not trying to be rude or impudent, just curious as what does the community offer, in general, to its members? I am truly interested in knowing what else may be available to me as a member.

So you are not a club person and don't play golf. That's fine, but why deny an air-conditioned area for the dog club for a few months? You mentioned they give nothing monetarily to RCSC, but those who use the pools don't either, or the exercise equipment. Do all clubs give money to RCSC? You mentioned the Men's Club but no other clubs.

 

Easily the best piece of work done by a departed RCSC employee was the flat space utilization report he complied at the board's request. It was shocking from a couple of different perspectives: There were 27 spaces listed and the utilization was shockingly low in most of them. It was as SCG stated above, empty rooms still cost us money.

What was terribly disappointing was, once the board had the data, it appears as if nothing was done with it. In fact, just the opposite happened as the they set off in a new direction with their focus being to add even more square footage to the already massive 300,000 we have under roof. It made no sense to ignore what we have and just say we needed more.

For those who don't remember, Fairway before the remodel was a series of little old buildings with limited square footage. We lovingly called them Quonset huts, but they were a bit better than that. The electrical wiring for the computer club was frightening with every day a nightmare waiting to happen. Replacing it was desperately needed.

The two part remodel took 5 years and every club was promised their space back and often with far better than what they had. My old friend and former director of the free standing Visitor Center, Paul Herrmann, remarked often we (the RCSC) should do a study to review the cost for a center before and after the renovation. It was an insightful remark, because while the cost to build it came out of PIF, the cost to maintain it came from the yearly operating budget. It could be argued the energy efficiency of a new building would cut costs, it would be interesting to see when you doubled the sq footage, the real difference in the before and after.

Tom Marone has been on a similar track with his comments we simply do not need/cannot afford more space. What we do need is to utilize the space we have far more effectively. It's hard to argue that point. It has been curious to watch the new general manager continue to take what was formerly club space and give it to RCSC employees. It begs the question, how many employees to we really need?

My complaint in that regard is always about a return on investment. Having a fabulous team of highly qualified video and audio people is great if it does two things: Helps the membership know what is going on in the community, and just as important, becomes a marketing tool to increase home sales in Sun City. The fly in the ointment is of course younger people/employees undoubtedly know the power of social media; the GM tells them they can't use it. Senseless in my opinion.

The PAC is the classic example of the difference between wants and needs. The Sun City Players have been existence since 1960. The only time they had any sort of inclined seating was when they put on a performance at the Sun Bowl. Even then i have no idea if they did anything but put out chairs on the flat space in front of the stage. If not, then every performance has been done with those attending sitting on folding chairs.

I know they are uncomfortable and in my opinion, they need comfortable theater type seats. They want fixed permanent seats that sit on slightly sloped floors. The problem of course once you do that, the site is limited to what it can be used for. I always thought the idea of retractable seating as proposed (and studied) by Gary Osher made the most sense. Two birds with one stone: Giving the players what they need and allowing more options for utilization.

This past summer should have showed us the way. I have zero interest in seeing the RCSC build an indoor dog arena, it's added space and added costs. I did watch in amazement as they took the MV auditorium and made spectacular use of it when it typically would be sitting empty. Now with the summer over, the Players are back using it for their performances, albeit with uncomfortable folding chairs.

Seems to me, the answer lies somewhere in there.

Another great example of wants versus needs can be seen in the great pickleball debate during SAC. For months we heard about the need for more more courts at Mountain View. The argument raged 15? 20? 24? Or, what if 8 were covered like Marinette? Indoor pickleball venues were opening across the Valley at that exact moment and we suddenly wanted a bunch of them instead. We would become the place to retire if you loved pickleball.

Sadly that idea coupled with this sudden sense of building an indoor dog arena created a void in the SAC project and it was all kicked to the curb. I'll never understand how or why we let SAC go so far afield. It was a massive undertaking with enormous amounts of time, effort and money invested in something we flushed down the toilet when a minority population of members decided what they wanted...not needed.

In my opinion, we simply don't have the luxury of adding more space that we use on a limited basis. We 100% need to start figuring out how to best use the space we have...and then we best start marketing all this community has to offer to those outside our walls. California with it's wild fires and Florida with their insurance costs going crazy are easy target markets for those who want/need to start anew.

 

WOW! These poor people are still fighting the fires. They don't even have their heads wrapped around what happened to them. Easy target? What is wrong with you?

 

We need to start having a mindset of conserve and preserve. The impression that is being made is that, we've got money, we've got ideas, and were going to spend it.
How about, we're in charge of your money, and we are going to be cautious with it. Did the GM know he outspent us? and when did he know it? did the BOD know it?
We have to have some guardrails on all of this.
From the first time I logged on and started listening to our meetings, my first impressions were that it was all about, I want this, I want that.
I do think many of the updates were absolutely needed because of some neglect on making timely decisions on maintenance so I think the GM did a good job at handling maintenance items.
The future of building new buildings and doing any tear downs..need to be done cautiously and with considerations of using building for various uses.
I still think we need to also think of adding more beauty to the aging area, so we could be a viable place where folks would want to buy a home. We will always have these issues.
It takes a board that is looking at the entire community, current amenities and thinking about the future.
Not an easy thing to do.
All ideas should be presented at meetings. Thank you and have a good week!

 

With all due respect most of your posts have been about spending money, new stores, etc.

 

Yes and No, Josie. Yes, I would like dilapidated run down shopping centers, like the one at 99th and Peoria bulldozed and redeveloped. Redeveloped by a development company who would buy the center and be willing to put something new in here for everyone's benefit. Has nothing to do with using resident member money, or us spending any of our own money! We don't own shopping centers in here, I know that, I just would love to see the owners of these centers invest to make the community great again!