Living in Sun City, AZ is Complex and Unique

I don't know where you get your information from but almost all Over 50/55 Communities in Arizona and across the US including The Villages charge the annual assessment per lot, not per person. Once upon a time Sun City and Sun City West were outliers and charging per person. Thankfully Sun City joined the majority charging per lot. I've said this before on this forum, many Seniors are looking for a "deal" and back in the bad old days right here in Sun City it was very simple to drop an aging/ill spouse off the deed to save a few bucks. You want to see high annual increases, lobby to go back to per person assessments and see what happens.

 

Not true. I believe it was eyesopen who posted the facts about the webb communities across the country. cannot upload docs here so I will look for a link. SCW is still per person. SCW Per Person * MembershipDuesFees2021-2022.pdf (suncitywest.com)

 

3genSCAZ,
Sun City is the only one charging by lot!!
This is the 2022 cost comparison. There isn’t an updated one on the RCSC website.
It compares annual fees per property for two qualified owners, neglecting to state:

Sun City charges by lot, giving two memberships with each paid annual assessment IF there are two on the deed.

Single deeded property owners pay the same assessment and only benefit one membership. The dual deeded get a “buy one, get one free!”

All other communities give one membership with annual assessment fee payment.
Additional property owner/resident must also pay for facilities access. Each individual pays their share!!

See chart here, page two: https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/2022-01-Sun-City-AZ-Annual-Resident-Fees.pdf

 

What isn’t true? The chart that EO provided specifies two qualified owners per property. Of course Sun City would want to compare apples to apples, especially to arch rival SCW. Check the websites of the Webb and other communities…for example the Sun City Festival assessment on their website is $435 per quarter PER LOT which makes my case. Do you honestly think the Festival developer would be able to sell houses in the middle of nowhere with no stores or outside amenities with an annual two person household paying $3480 per year, that’s Southern California rates! While I wish it were true as Sun City properties would be in high demand and selling in days not weeks or months, the $3480 is just not a reality. And although it’s difficult to say, The Villages with 144,000 residents long ago blew past Sun City as the dominant retirement community in the US and they set the rules today. Their assessment this year is $195 per month per lot, check their website to verify me. If you and misguided EO are so sure of your facts carpool to Buckeye and get the truth straight from the Developers documents (assuming you don’t trust that they publish on their website) or better yet head down to humid buggy Florida and check out The Villages, maybe you will find nirvana far away from Sun City.

 

Compare Phoenix Retirement Community HOA Fees
From Retire AZ Resort Style January 2024

Curious about what HOA fees each Phoenix Retirement Community charges? Well you’re not alone. Below is a detailed list by community listing the HOA fees, recreation and other fees like one-time transfer fees and asset preservation fees.

(Note the distinction, confusion, between HOA and recreation fees.
• HOAs are per property, even those that are here in Sun City.
• Recreation fees are per person as shown on the RCSC 2022 TWO person charge Comparison Chart, except for Sun City’s by lot.)

HERE: https://retireaz-resortstyle.com/compare-phoenix-retirement-community-hoa-fees/

 

Hi Bill,
Yes, I am talking about the punch card system or a guest card pass. I did not know that they don't do any inventory control on how many of those are coming and going.
The problem appears to be that any person coming in here from out of state...( they have a family member or some distant friend) who resides in SC. The family or friend gets them the pass, and these folks can come and play for months at a very low...let's say very cheap rate. Is RCSC not concerned about this?

A week ago, I went to Marinette to do my morning workout, and there was a line of 5 people up at the check in desk, all out of staters waving a print out of some kind of guest pass to come in to play pickleball. I had to wait in line to get in, while the attendant was busy telling them the rules. I was thinking, how do all of these folks get these passes to come in and play pickleball? It was very busy there, Bill and I was shocked to see all of the out of state folks who are plowing in and using our rec centers.

All I am trying to say is that we have hundreds of folks plowing in here and getting the punch-card ( guest passes) because they know someone who knows someone, and they come and play here for weeks. If RCSC was more aware of the opportunity to be generating more income by charging more for the very heavy usage of our facilities for 5 or 6 months. Is anyone not concerned about this? These are the folks who DON'T live here, but just are coming in to have fun. I personally think we need to be charging a much higher price for the the priviledge of letting them come in and use our Rec centers, all day, everyday.

I think the administration has been too naive for years. If you ask them about it, you get shut down at the RCSC meeting. I just think if the new GM is trying to turn the place into a large Disneyland...I hope he should know, that we are being taken advantage of by non residents who come in here and get those punch cards ( guest cards).
I really am concerned about it.

 

Hello,
What I mean by Disneyland is not the price, but the intent and usage. You're right Disneyland is not cheap, for sure. My thought is, if we are trying to make this a Rec center playground for non residents, we need to charge a lot more, that is all I am saying. You cannot sustain building integrity if you have hundreds of out of staters coming in here on the cheap to use the facilities over time. If we are trying to build revenue, we have to charge more and I would start with the non residents who are able to get the cheap daily rate cards.
Thanks for listening.

 

Have you ever tried at getting into a private country club in Palm Desert or Rancho Mirage, CA? You can't even get in there, unless you absolutely know someone who gets you a one time guest pass. You can't even have a lunch in there restaurants in many of these clubs unless you are a member there. Country club memberships are as high as $100,000, that is why those golf courses look pristine. It costs millions to have a first-rate golf course. Just a thought on the entire subject. Are we being taken advantage of, should be our question? It is not easy to make serious changes. I respect everyone's thoughts on the subject.

 

We bought our first home in Sun City in 1999. We first started visiting my folks here two years earlier. We always used punch cards when we came, they were $1 for each use. The mindset was it helped market the communities activities to potential buyers. Obviously it worked for us and has worked to attract countless others. As an interesting side note, when we purchased our first home at the age of 51, we couldn't live here but we paid our fees and couldn't use the facilities without a punch card when we visited. The RCSC provided us with punch cards, which i have argued was one way to make singles feel better about paying the lot assessment.

That aside, the problem you are talking about Eileen has long been a sore spot. So much so the bylaws differentiated between a guest and a visitor. The former, former GM aggressively tried to prevent those living outside the community from coming to use the amenities on a regular basis. It was a solid argument because often local buyers (ie: Peoria, Surprise and Glendale) would move here and have friends join them at activities using the $1 punch card (which finally became $2). That was never the intent and worse yet it was near on impossible to track. Someone can pull it up in the documents, i think the terms are still defined; guest and visitor.

This mess has grown worse over the years as we actively began selling full play golf passes to non-residents. The board just kind of turned a blind eye to the abuses. Pickleball has always been a source of concern as the better players were inviting other better players (from outside our community) to our courts. The $2 charge is a fraction of the actual price that would be paid at private courts around the West Valley. Dance clubs, card clubs, lawn bowling and others have also been known to allow outsiders. It's a fine line between marketing and abusing the original intentions of how the punch cards were supposed to work.

The end product was two-fold: 1). Allowing those living here provide for their visiting family members and friends to enjoy the amenities. 2). Let non-residents (usually renters) buying a privilege card an opportunity to try Sun City before they buy. I was talking with a new lawn bowler yesterday. He and his wife rented here for 4 months and they paid the $575 lot assessment because it was cheaper than the monthly rate a renter can pay. That's how it is supposed to work.

The daily punch card is too cheap. The abuses still exist and the simple reality is our special tax status is predicated on the amenities being in place for the members, not non-residents. I suspect the new GM and the new board will address this problem sometime this year. They inherited quite the mess with the 15 year behind the times technology; the 20 million dollar deferred maintenance issues; the need to figure out the Mountain View debacle and as Tom pointed out, sorting through a 5 year reserve study and some sort of a strategic long range plan.

Anyone who has any understanding of effective leadership knows the value of prioritizing. This is where we are and while some lament how "slow" everything is moving, it's the nature for organizational structure.

As far as the question of per person/per lot, i'd love to have someone/anyone tell me a solution to the problem. To be clear, you cannot just tell those who have purchased since 2003, when the change was made, their contract of a per lot basis (2 people per residence) is now changed. Singles and couples since then agreed (via the facilities agreement) to the terms and conditions. It's why back in 2003 they "grandfathered" the existing owners to the terms and conditions they bought under. If you tell me the answer is to just cut the singles in half, how and where do you pick up the missing revenue?

By the way, in spite of what you've read above, i've written volumes on the problem of per lot versus per person. While on it's face it looked like the rationale was solid (cleaner income stream with every household at some point having a fixed dollar amount), with the increases looming as we move forward, singles (who often are less financially stable) will feel the pinch more than couples. I'm not arguing for or against (it's done both ways), clearly a per person lot assessment is more fair, but from a practical standpoint if the single rate is too cheap, it simply drives the sales to single buyers which drags down yearly collected revenues.

One of the interesting data points in Sun City West (from their long range planning document of 5 years ago) was that 40% plus of their population were single owners. What it didn't tell us is whether it was that high because there were more single home buyers or because of spouse deaths or divorce. Obviously, with their single rate nearly the same as our per lot assessment, Sun City is far more attractive to couples when looking only at yearly rec fees.

It's an issue, but i see no reasonable solution.

 

Just responding to the Hippie online here. As a homeowner you have a responsibility for care and upkeep of your property. These are legal documents you signed at your title company when you chose to move into a CCR driven community.
If folks are too old to care for there properties..SCHOA can provide someone to come and assist in yard cleanup.

 

Hi Bill,
I too am concerned about renters too. I am not so sure we have a good way of knowing how many folks are living in a rental either. When I am out walking with my husband we see some homes with 6 cars parked outside, people coming and going. That is a tip off right there that there are many folks residing in one home. Also the age overlay comes into it too. I am concerned now that SCHOA can no longer keep up with the violators, unless someone reports. I think SCHOA is strapped.
Thank you for your knowledge on many things here Bill.

 

Thank you for posting link and explaining to 3gen. was just looking for it.

 

Not sure what part of sun city you live in. I don't see that in phase 2. there was a memorial service the other day for a neighbor and cars and people were coming and going all day.

 

SCHOA does a pretty good job. I just opened their newsletter for the month though and was dismayed by all of the open violations, almost 350 of them. That's a lot. If they were strapped for cash, i could understand the challenge. I don't think they are, at least they weren't a year or two ago. I hope the new president is more aggressive in dealing with violations. Some are way more serious than others. Prioritizing is still the order of the day.

Rentals are the new normal. Sorry, but just the way it is these days. The good news is the VERBO type units are less attractive for investors. The bad news is, yearly rentals are often abused by renting to anyone who will write a check. They've always been the biggest violators. That should be SCHOA's primary concern. Not that the other problems can be ignored, the age overlay is first and foremost.

 

When I say strapped...I mean I think they are over there heads in terms of the violator problems. I don't know about there financials. I think that is a concern too.
Yes, I agree with all you've said. I totally agree, Bill.

 

My property is just fine and in compliance with CCR's, but thanks.