Spec. Session

Good discussion Bill. Thanks!
I suggested many threads ago a membership vote on any projects costing over $15 million or so. The MV/now also Lakeview project is probably in neighborhood of $27 million. Why leave it all to board members who garnered maybe 1400 votes? That is out of 32,000 members? And what a nice lobby to keep golfers from control of the board.

So I say develop plan/design and let members vote to accept or reject. Much like a school bond levy not all people end up voting. So be it. That is America today.

 

I have said this before, and I know from living it in the “streets” of SC. Moved here in 2004 to live with and care for parents, they were 84 and had stopped going to board meetings 15 years prior. They felt, as did their friends, that their opinion did not matter. They golfed, bowled, silver crafted and played cards. The young ones in 2004 who are now 86ish were all gung-ho on the centers, going to board meetings etc. They gave up around 2013 or so. They felt their opinions didn’t matter. You can’t have a member involved community when the BOD does not listen/care.

A ND member posted this:

“Well one thing for certain is that things change constantly. Never in the history of mankind has time gone backwards. Every generation changes a little from the last one and they don’t go backwards. Every generation complains about the younger generations but they never go backwards. Unfortunately that’s just how life goes. It’s a constant cycle, always has been.”

Reply: “But that doesn’t change or justify the situation today.”

Original poster: “I’m not trying to justify it, I’m just telling it like it is. Things don’t go backward. Time moves forward, not backwards. I know we like to think about how it was in the good old days, but that’s just what they are, the old days. I’m sorry, but I’m a bit of a realist. And at 62 years old, I’ve come to realize that the old days never do come back.”

No matter how badly you want it, it will never be 1960, 70 or 80 again. From everything I have read it appears board members are consistent with the definition of insanity…..doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

 

I'm always fascinated by comments inferring my dream is we return to our past: Yikes! Let me say it for about the hundredth time: History matters because we can LEARN FROM IT. Yes, i know, i shouted it, my apologies to those of you who get it without the caps.

 

History does matter. I don't like the fact that history is being erased in our schools, historical statues are being removed, but that was not the point. We obviously are not learning from the past. The board members have the same complaints year after year on this site. I did a word search and the results prove that. 'This board is different' seems to be the general theme until it isn't. I can't cite anything because I am not allowed to, however they are saved. One thing I did like about this meeting was the member who told Jean it was not the board's turn to talk or try to explain, it was member time.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around the difference of 200 golfers or pickleballers influencing decisions as opposed to 9 board members. It's all relative and they are all rec center members. Has allowing more opportunity for members outside of the board to speak up made a difference in any outcome so far?

 

Yes, it changed the entire direction we were headed in. Up until 2021 and through 2022 the majority of 5 board members made all of the decisions (in 2023 when 3 board members quit, it all changed). By then, the old GM was gone and the new GM (also now gone) were unwilling to share data and could care less what members thought or said. Those of us who showed up were simply regarded as being troublemakers.

Think not? Look at Sept 2021 board meeting when the new GM threatened to have us arrested if we didn't leave Sun Dial. By the way, that was the meeting where they had 3 armed police officers there to protect the board members (who ran out the back door after a 3 minute meeting). Think about the difference between the 2021 Dec annual membership meeting where we finally had the required quorum (1400 with proxies) and they refused to let us vote on bylaw changes legally submitted (as required in the bylaws) compared to last year's meeting where properly submitted bylaws were in fact voted on by members.

And let's just for fun look back to June of 2021 when the board rammed through the 42 million dollar Taj Mahal (Mountain View) project. An 8 year plan where the changes were made and passed quickly so as to avoid the shit storm that was coming when they fired Karen McAdam a week later. The nonsense looked nothing at like what members had asked for during the two town hall meetings held back in 2018. Their newest proposal was ludicrous on it's face with the entire property (all 6.5 acres) scraped clean and the overruns would have been an ongoing nightmare.

The new proposal with the "elements" spelled out will be both affordable and doable and better yet, done quickly. It's not up to me to decide what goes there. The board and the new GM (who sat though all 4 town hall sessions) took it all in and with the turn of the calendar, acted both responsibly and quickly. That of unto itself is volumes ahead of how previous boards have acted.

And so i am perfectly clear about my concept of self-governance; i want them (management and the board) taking member input. Then i want them to use (and share) the available data that supports their actions and decisions with the community. I want committees with members where their ideas aren't categorically tossed aside but weighed for their value in conjunction with the data and the needs of community. Pretty simple, pretty basic and exactly how and why Sun City was so successful.

 

The previous managers did a lot more damage than good, but she moved the community forward. You continue to harp on the past and how great this new board is. However, what was achieved with countless sessions of the SAC? Has a site evaluation ever been done on MV? So because a vote has never been used to decide how the money should be spent, why the opposition? Is the board any closer today to making a decision on MV than they were a year ago? And is it what the community wants? Why don’t more people vote? Because their vote doesn’t matter, that’s why.

 

Agree. I stated my experience from 2004 and later above. Folks do not believe they matter. The operative word in Bill's last sentence is "was". Why SC 'was' so successful. It's not going to get easier with interest rates around 7% and a record low 21 percent of Americans think it is a good time to buy a home. Add the 4k pif, the 1k cif and $575 assessment fee......

 

What part of 20 million dollars in deferred maintenance, 15 years behind in technology and our golf courses having major issues is considered moving the community forward Larry? Oh wait, we were the cheapest...and now we know why.

Before we get too far afield, LESS THAN A YEAR AGO the 42 million dollar, 8 year plan for Mountain View was where we were going. Dispute it if you want, but until the board killed that boondoggle last spring, that was the plan. Then through enormous efforts by any number of residents, board members and staff, the entire summer was spent culling through the massive wish list which members were invited to attend, or watch the recorded sessions online. Once getting through all of that, they held 4 open sessions to let members vent or add to the discussion.

Moving into 2024 they have reduced it all to the "elements" they have cited to proceed. I've read countless comments from those tired of waiting for them to just get on with it...which is exactly what they are doing. You may not like the results of where they are, or you may love them. Not up to me to decide what goes there, all i am doing is keeping it real for those of you who forgot how borked up this whole thing was for more years than i care to admit.

Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel is huge given the Mountain View remodel should have been done (affordably) years ago.

And to be really clear for all the naysayers, Sun City always has been and in all likelihood always will be a great community to retire to or even for those who need or want to keep on working. Amenities galore and reasonable costs that keep it attractive for many/most of us. Hope that helps clarify Larry.

 

So adding more facilities helps clear up the deferred maintenance problem how? Half the board just turned over. Are they onboard with the direction? And I’ve not heard anyone address the lack of a site evaluation. This whole process is a waste of time until that’s completed.

 

I've made a point to walk away Larry, sorry i did more than my share for 20 years. Time for others to step up. However, in answer to your question about a site evaluation on the auditorium, it appears from reading the elements, they will leave the old building for the time being. It also appears there is still some question regarding the "bubble cover" over the pickleball courts. I'm just pleased they are moving forward with some set criteria and goals. The elements clearly lays out the path of how they will incorporate the professionals into the plan. That's a good thing.

 

Exactly, Bill!
(Page references of document link provided below)
Mountain View Renovations Elements
Project Design Steps

• The Board provides the General Manager (GM) with design elements
• The staff uses elements to elicit design proposals
• Staff interacts with architects, engineers & stakeholders and receives design proposals (no money spent)
• Architect chosen - Interactive design process with Board and stakeholders to build a schematic design
• Design development followed by construction documents
• RFP out to contractors, bid acceptance by bid commission
• Construction starts
(Page 36)

Auditorium
• Not touched and can be used during renovation
• Can be repurposed, renovated, or demolished for a different structure after PAC construction is complete
(Page 44)

Lakeview Performing Arts Center
• New PAC at Lakeview • Location TBD
• Lobby
• Theater-style seating
• ADA compliant
• Dressing rooms, production storage
• Modern light and sound systems
• Better acoustics
• Parking not a concern
(Page 45)

Why Put the PAC at Lakeview?
• Centralized location with more acreage
• Current auditorium used during renovation
• Useable for numerous clubs, community events, meetings, movies • 10,000 sq. ft., approximately 300-350 seats
• Keep Lakeview lawn bowling, shuffleboard, fishing, and mini golf
(Page 46)

Document https://suncityaz.org/wp-content/up...-Meeting-Agenda-with-Attachments-Dec-Mins.pdf

 

Of course the elements and plans have not been voted through yet. So more discussion is certainly appropriate. It does sound like board is poised to approve the motion being presented dealing with the plan.

 

What should be clear to those who read the blast from the RCSC and posted by eyesopen above is the entire process is a work in progress. That's a good thing and is one being done in front of the membership. No, i don't mean you all get to sit with the architects and scratch out the details, but how they will proceed is abundantly clear to anyone who has watched the past 15 years as closely as some of us have. There's no question; it's different.

If you look back at 2021, with the old GM gone and new one struggling to find his footing, the majority of the board made decisions that were foolish and all done behind closed doors. Let me be clear, they showed us the proposals after we paid architects a pretty penny to do them and then redo them again. There was never any real discourse about the merits of wiping the site clean and mortgaging our future on a 6.5 acre parcel of land sitting in the southern corner of the community, they just pushed it through. The group of 5 or 6 just decided to do it.

You can try and rewrite history and pretend it was all good, but the reality of an 8-year wildly expensive rebuild when coupled with the expensive conversion coming due on our golf courses with the 2025 ADWR mandated water management plan would have crippled us. Shutting down the insanity and restarting a more practical solution was incredibly important to our future.

Now, with the "elements" in play and a path forward, this project can proceed. The beauty of it looks like they are placing two considerations above all of the cries for "i want what i want." We were never going to arrive at a place where everyone was going to be happy or get what they want. There were far too many expectations on the table. By the way, those two considerations appear to be 1). Affordable and 2). Done quickly and with as little disruption as possible. Both sound good to me.

Just a reminder for those of you who are relative newcomers; these changes in 2023 have been huge, especially when compared to how Sun City was run from 2009 -2022.

 

And Bill, as you have stated before in other threads membership played a role(however passive) in much of what went on from 2009-2022. With the present board/management desire to include members in decision making what better way to accomplish this than to place the final design to members voting to accept or reject.
But I suppose membership can override the final design at yearly “membership meeting” if there is a quorum of 500 members/proxies at said meeting.
I don’t believe it will come to this, but good to remember it is an option for members.

 

I left the first part of your comments out as we simply see things differently. As far as your second paragraph, the Bylaws and Articles are clear, the only time the members can overturn a decision by the board is regarding properly submitted bylaws to the annual membership at their meeting. That's been the language and intent for a very long time. There's was never the ability for the membership to set policies or determine the lot assessment.

It was interesting to read the Letter's To The Editor in the Independent this week. A couple of members were complaining about how they had no say, the board just did as they pleased. That's never been the case. The decision to raise rates, start the PIF and even the addition of the CIF were based on the need to do so (and plenty of opportunity to speak for or against it). I wasn't in favor of the $50 increase, but the argument was made they needed it. My position was they should prove the need and then take the larger increase next year.

Ultimately, they'll either spend it or they won't and if they don't the shit will hit the fan. That's really here nor there for the one member complaining he (the members) had no rights. They do, they get to vote for board members who may or may not think/act like them. If the don't, the writer has the absolute right to collect signatures and run for a board position. He has the absolute right to start a group like we did with the Sun City Advocates and help elect candidates who think like he does.

I would tell you the same Tom; if you (the membership) aren't happy with the fact you won't get to vote of the Mountain View renovation, run for the board. I think you said you go away for the summer, then help find candidates who think the membership should vote on everything (or in your case, projects of more than $15 million). I can tell you historically that hasn't been the case in most instances. In fact, the PIF was set up to avoid membership votes so projects that needed be done, could get done.

To be really clear, the membership will have opportunities to voice both their approval or disapproval through each step of the way. I suspect whether they listen will depend on how loud, angry or in support of the project the response is.

 

It's all about perception. Most of my neighbors don't bother anymore. Not everyone has the inclination/physical capability to be a board member. "if you (the membership) aren't happy with the fact you won't get to vote of the Mountain View renovation, run for the board" Not everyone can be elected. People can run but only a few are chosen. You can speculate until the cows come home about how this board will move forward but no one can be certain until they act.

 

I was hoping not to hear the “run for the board” idea. Don’t live here full time. I do enjoy giving input on this site and have spoken at various board and SAC meetings.
Thanks Bill for reminder on by-laws etc. Would a by-law calling for a membership vote on financial decisions over $15 million be allowed?

 

I doubt it, the bylaws are an extension of the Articles of Incorporation. You'd have to ask someone that is better versed on the subject than i am. And so we are really clear, my comment on running for the board was directed at the gentleman who wrote the letter to the editor who claimed he had no rights as a member. I also pointed out for those who go away for the summer, they can start or join a group of members interested in changes like you have posted above. It's what we did when we started the Sun City Advocates. Admittedly it was a lot of work but in my humble opinion was well worth the effort.

Most often limitations are the ones people use as excuses not to do something.