Golf Advisory Committee

I’ve had similar ideas to yours about using golf green space for pb or even a theater. Don’t quite remember if it’s been mentioned on this or other chat groups? Fairly certain the idea has never been presented as an option at SAC meeting.

 

So would you want a pickleball court in your backyard?

 

Yes, as long as a basketball hoop was included. Brother in-law has this setup. Fun is had!

Guessing you are referring to MV and the pb courts? This is why I recommend enclosed, climate controlled pb facility at MV.

 

I had suggested a couple of years back they put pickleball courts on the South golf course next door to the maintenance building. There is a nice tract of land available. Obviously it needs to be evaluated for what would fit. The cry came from some who said golf courses could only be used for golf courses. I quickly pointed out the RCSC Trades dept had built their workshop adjacent to the Willow Brook, Willow Creek maintenance buildings and no one moaned about that. The argument is crap, because the South course would still be the south course.

I suspect the bigger complaint would be from the pickleball players/club who are arguing all the courts have to be contained in two locations. Apparently the game is so sociable, having three locations wouldn't work. We know indoor courts are being built across AZ. It would seem easy enough to look at what others are doing with both size and costs.

 

We are talking about a project that at best would be 8-10 years down the road and a whole new generation of theater goers. Are they going to use it? And is that the best bang for the buck? How many days a year is it going to be used and at what cost? If you’re planning for today, you’re thinking in the past.

 

I heard about 5 years to complete project. And tell me Larry, who are these people moving into Sun City in the future? The ASU survey said most people want to see more walking/biking options. Also Larry, what in your opinion is the best alternative for the money?

I do believe a theater would continue to see good use in the future. One thing I find unbelievable in Sun City is the lack of even one gymnasium, which would support multiple activities. Not many cities of even less than 20,000 people without a gym. I find this ridiculous.

 

I agree Bill! I also enjoyed hearing Steve Oakes talk about the need to quit saying words like can’t, won’t, and shouldn’t as they stifle creative thinking. Heard this watching the SAC video tape.

 

Where in order of priority do you place this? Ahead of MV remodel, Lakeview, or more pickleball courts? And remember, there’s some very serious amounts of money needed for each and every one of these projects and so far, to my knowledge, no half-way accurate cost has been disclosed.

 

I watched the 10/20/23 SAC video. Has cost estimates for MV project. Theater remodel at $13 million and entire cost about $25 million.

 

I like Steve a lot and i suspect someday he will be on the RCSC board and perhaps even the one that leads the rebuild at the Lakeview Center from the ground up. Unfortunately we've all come to understand words matter. While some applaud not using can't and shouldn't sounds good, at some point reality has to set in. Mountain View sits on 6.5 acres. It is a really small footprint. Just leaving the money part of the equation off the table (which we can't), what actually fits on the property is really the practical question that must be answered. Drilling down even further, how much covered indoor space is the question that has to be answered before everything else. County parking codes dictate what we can and cannot do.

After the meeting Friday i stopped and chatted with Steve and Paul. Their proposal would have taken the MV project (that Marlene had projected at 25 million dollars and actually did fit on site) out to somewhere between 40-45 million dollars. When i mentioned those 15 pickleball courts enclosed added another nearly 40,000 sq feet and roughly 200 more parking spaces, i asked them how they would accomplish that? Parking garages was their answer. Except we know from prior discussions the cost of multiple floor parking space is 5 or 10 times the cost a single level parking lot.

So the answer is simply; no, some things aren't possible and cannot be done. The only way to get an indoor pickleball venue on the MV site is to kill the PAC. Which ultimately creates the question; where do they go? Telling them to wait for Lakeview (5 or 10 years down the road) is folly; especially when we know the golf courses will be draining the PIF of somewhere between 20 and 30 million dollars because of 2025 5th water management plan. Converting all those roughs to desert landscaping, even if the Tough Turf experiment works at the North course will cost us a boatload.

Reality always has to set in and sadly there's too many in this community who want to ignore the challenges we are facing. We trusted management to make every decision and we held no one accountable for outcomes. We decided that being cheap was way better than being good and now we will be paying for it. I'm all for a "can-do" attitude, but ultimately we all have to be realistic. It's exactly why the MV project and SAC is struggling to find the perfect answer.

 

SAME SONG, DIFFERENT DANCE!

So I just attended the members' meeting for the course where I have played golf for the past 50 years. It was deja vu! In fact I might as well have been sitting in the RCSC meeting about golf finances. The Board of Directors, Management and some financial advisors had a very well thought out and transparent PowerPoint about where the Club is financially, what is needed, and the dues structure for the next year, which will include an increase for everyone. The buildings, golf course, and pool were built in the 1960's and they are showing their age. It has the same irrigation system and HVAC system since it opened in 1965. $1.8 Million just to replace the irrigation system, but the Greens Supervisor said he could keep it running for now. Instead he recommended that we replace the fleet of golf carts because they are what people see and use. They are seven years old. (Wonder how that compares to some that RCSC owns.)

Another similarity was how the increases in dues have not kept pace with inflation. In fact, they were decreased two years ago. Go figure? Only one person questioned why we were in this financial situation. No other complaints or finger pointing. Other similarities with RCSC include no long term plan, solid budget, or accountability. We are not broke, paying all our bills, but there are lots of needs. Of course Management has some dream projects, but they realize they are a long way out in the future.

Now here is how their approach differs from RCSC's. Every golfing member will see a $500 increase no matter what group they are in (Under 35 years old, over 70, Founding Member, etc.) Not 16% for this group, 30% for others, etc. They are going to monitor outsiders to be sure they aren't playing as guests too often and avoiding paying membership fees. It was made clear several times that the facility is for MEMBERS WHO HAVE PAID THEIR DUES. (Such a nice, fresh approach rather than saying we need outsiders or other Members to pay our expenses.) Tuesdays mornings are Ladies Day and Wednesday afternoons are set aside for Mens Play. Also there are three evening leagues but only one ties up the whole course. No small groups that supercede other Members except for an occasional event. Management acknowledged that there are too many outside events that prevent Members from playing.

Many people spoke, but all supported the need for the dues increase. This organization is also not for profit and many Members have made contributions, bequests, etc over the years in addition to paying their dues. It was acknowledged that we would probably lose a few members but we are moving in the right direction.

Like I said, "Same Song, different dance!"

 

Understood Bill! If parking is needed I suggested the lawn bowling court at MV be eliminated or moved to another location. That space could be used for additional parking or pb courts. Would it be enough, I don’t know.

I also looked on Maricopa County website and found the criteria for parking at different type facilities. I also wonder about asking for variances or conditional use permits. Worth a try. Before we say can’t, these ideas warrant an attempt. I don’t get paid enough to do the deep dive on these ideas. Any takers?

 

Looks like most of the newbies in Sun City trying to hijack everything for themselves are from Washington. Just out of curiosity, how many of you live here year round? And every single newbie (which I consider minimum of 5 years) have you done something for this wonderful community that benefits the membership as a whole? Have you picked up trash, picked weeds from an elderly resident who cannot afford or not physically able to do it. Asked a neighbor if they need anything from the store because they are unable to drive? There's a lot more I could list but I know the answer. Bill has donated years of his time which he has never asked for anything because teaching, learning, and helping is what he enjoys. Bill and I don't see eye to eye on things sometimes but the respect I have and many others have is unsurpassed. Some of you on here spend many hours a week blabbing about the same thing again and again. Also, you can't take a golf course and use it for something else. You want walking paths? Check out the sidewalks in Sun City. Beautiful level place to walk with friends. Hell, you may start something where you see hundreds of people walking every day throughout Sun City. Hell, you may meet some new friends, and maybe set an example and show others if you take a trash bag each time you go walking by picking up paper etc. Imagine, what if everyone cared enough to do this. Keep wasting your time and do something positive for all of us. Believe me, it's painless and makes you feel good.

 

Excellent advice and ideas. Great to have options in life!

 

To answer your questions, Mr. Say What, I am from Nebraska and try to spend six months a year in Arizona. However it may be less this year due to the birth of two granddaughters and my better half's wrist surgery. Many of us have valid reasons for not being full time Sun City residents. Family and business are two good examples. We pay the same fees as everyone so we shouldn't be considered second class citizens which you seem to imply.

I have owned property in Sun City for over 10 years and my parents for 15 years prior to that. I pick up trash whenever I see it but do not belong to the Sun City Prides. Also I help neighbors. Always have, always will. There are many ways people can contribute to Sun City other than picking up trash which you often mention. Sun City is a fine example of people taking care of their community, full time or as winter visitors. Personally, I spent hundreds of hours pouring over the Bylaws and Articles of Incorporation last year as a member of the Bylaws Review Committee. Now, when I question something, I immediately go to the Corporate Documents to check things out. There have been a few times I have notified the President and other Board members of a bylaws violation which has resulted in a change. Like Mr. Pearson says, "Words matter!" In fact I am going to look up something in the Board Policies when I have finished this post.

I frequently walk on the sidewalks of Sun City but prefer the rubberized track at Marinette because it is better on my arthritic joints. I love walking at the Hillside Park. It's a good way to meet people especially if someone has a dog.

Mr. Say What, I think you make a lot of assumptions about people that aren't warranted. The individuals I have met at Board meetings and on these blogs are good citizens who care about Sun City and are willing to put the time, and thoughts, into making it better.

 

Say what's comments most often come out harsher than intended. I think what he/she is trying to say is those running for the board should be better versed and more knowledgeable than they are. I agree and when i ran for the board, that was one of my often stated comments. Anyone interested should have a basic knowledge of our history and they should have an understanding on how the community works. We clearly are different from where they came from.

The problem of course is that it isn't just "newbies." I know folks who have lived in Sun City for 10 years that didn't know we had a lake (let alone two of them). They were clueless that SCHOA and the RCSC are two separate and distinct organizations that serves two different purposes. I once served with an RCSC board member who told me he thought when he ran it was for the SCHOA board, finding out after he had collected his signatures, it was for the RCSC. The list of what members (both new and long term) don't know is nearly endless.

Yet, oddly enough, 4 board members voted against restarting the communication and outreach committee. What was their argument? "We don't need no more stinking (my word) committees." It was irony beyond belief and one i still scratch my head over. Wonders never cease.

All of which is the perfect segue to SW's point. At the last minute, 3 golfers were recruited to run for the board. Along with a current board member also running, had they won, they would have formed a majority of board members and golf was their agenda. I really dislike single issue candidates, because as SW pointed out, if you don't understand the community, you vote based on your personal wants. It's how we got buried so deep in the first place.

I'm less focused on how long anyone has lived here and more impressed by those who have volunteered and understand how and why we are so unique.

 

I am a bit confused Say What. Bill mentions how messed up things had become in Sun City and you think people are trying to hijack everything for themselves. I comment in hopes of finding solutions to the difficult decisions we face as a community. If you don’t agree, no problem. Why not join the fun and present some possible solutions?