Blowing Smoke…

Sorry for being graphically crude here, but as we approach tomorrows board meeting, i find myself bound up over the arguments to come. Most of which stems from a concept we used to call “blowing smoke up a person’s ass.” While it probably not a widely embraced phrase, it was almost standard operating procedure in the work environment i existed in.

The good news for me was i learned quickly it was a fools game, pure folly to try and tell/sell anyone something built around have truths or outright lies. In the short run it could get you out of a pinch, invariably the long term costs were devastating. There’s simply no upside to trying to convince people of something that was illogical, made no sense or was never going to happen.

The shit-show that will take place tomorrow at the board meeting is the classic example of that. No interest in reliving all of the twists and turns but here is the nub of the problem: A performing arts theater has been in the works for Sun City since 1976. DEVCO’s 5 million dollar overrun at Bell killed the theater that was scheduled to be built on the corner of 99th Ave and Bell Road.

Ben Roloff told me the RCSC was delighted it was taken off the books as it was very large and would have been very costly to run. In the late 90’s, the Sun City Player’s club began aggressively lobbying for one and got close a couple of times. I’ve personally seen 3 or 4 plans, all of which i thought were reasonable; except maybe for the one with the parking below it.

The simple reality is there has always been an undercurrent of opposition. The questions of use were always attached to the discussion. I was never in that camp, there clearly is a need to build a theater to replace the Mountain View gym they currently use. It is atrocious. We toured it when on the board in 2012 and i was stunned at how inadequate it was and is worse some 10 years later.

The Players finally found an avenue with the Mountain View renovation push around 2016. It was warranted and when membership comments were solicited 400 or 500 members attended the two sessions. It was predominantly members of the players and a few of the other clubs who would use it, along with those living in the neighborhood who loved their pool.

From those plans came solid ideas that were embraced by the community who would use it. The pandemic hit and it all got put on hold. With the passage of time, the rebuild grew in stature and became more grandiose. With the firing of Karen McAdam in 2020 and her subsequent re-election in 2021, the board was caught in an awkward position as pickleball players were clamoring for more courts, not less.

That resulted in even more outlandish proposals. Coupled with the exploding supply shortages and even higher inflation, the price tag just kept growing. Then the board did something that stuck a dagger in the hearts of those longing for their beloved theater and pools; they added phase 3 to the project that was ludicrous on its face.

Two story pickleball courts, ADA mini golf and a new lawn bowling green took the price tag from 27 million dollars to 40 million. While those that wanted it argued money was no object, clearly those who pay attention to Sun City’s future looked at those numbers and said, really?

Phase 3 was blowing smoke and actually harmed those wanting a theater. The gym and walking track was more foolishness and tomorrow we’ll be caught up in the emotional investment and attachment to a project they deserve. Sadly, i am one of those who can’t get my head around the massive price tag that comes with adding a theater to our community.

I won’t have much to say tomorrow but i will be listening closely.

 

For anyone interested, you can find the first and second Mountain View proposals on the RCSC website under Mountain View Recreation Center. I am not sure why Phase 3 isn't there because I recall seeing some rudimentary drawings for it. Also, Mr. Cook told me that there were no estimates of the cost for the first proposal. Click on the tab for the Second Proposal, and there are slides telling how the architects changed things to satisfy Board concerns. Check it out. I did to become a more informed Member.

At this past Exchange, I stated that perhaps a separate location would be best for a Performing Arts Center. I might have been wrong with that. If it is 400 seats, then none of the concerts held at Sun Dial or the Sun Dome could be held there. Perhaps the Mountain View location is the best. One RCSC Member of the Players Club wants the Board to get on with the project and quit "kicking the can down the road". I can understand his frustration but I am not sure that Phase 2 will get them an auditorium any faster than Mr. Fast's proposal to have a committee study it and return a report back to the Board in September. It's unfortunate things have gotten to this point with so few answers and limited information given to RCSC Members.

 

Watch what was asked for:
RCSC Long Range Planning Committee - Mountain View Town Hall Meeting afternoon
session held on Monday, October 1, 2018 at 1:00 pm in Mountain View Recreation Center auditorium.


RCSC Long Range Planning Committee - Mountain View Town Hall Meeting evening
session held on Monday, October 1, 2018 at 6:00 pm in Mountain View Recreation Center auditorium.

 

I always wanted to see a larger theater, one that could be more multi purpose and seat more people. We know shows at the Sun Dial auditorium used to seat 1500 or so, this year they dropped down to 1200 plus. The Players have stated they are fine with 400 seats which makes it a cozy venue, the bigger value is in having seating that is comfortable. Mountain View is atrocious.

As always, the issue is lot size needed and availability. Back in the day the parking spaces weren't so much an issue, now days they are always a factor. I suspect the real concern from the Players is any delay will make the process start all over which is why the board's actions for Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 3 with the 40 million dollar price tag did them no favors.

Today will be interesting; to say the least.

 

Here’s my opinion on the Mountain View project with a little different take;

First of all, I am 110% in favor a Performing Arts Center.

Secondly, it seems that the RCSC drums one thing into the heads of every new Director, and that’s their fiduciary responsibility to the corporation. So let’s take a look at a few facts:

Fact No.1. It takes money to maintain and staff each recreation center.

Fact No. 2. Sun City is not a growing community. There are only a finite number of rooftops and its borders are well defined and limited, so….excluding the Vintage Vehicle Building was there really a need to increase the number of recreation centers by adding the Grand Center?

Fact No. 3. Fairway Recreation Center is less than 1 mile away from Mountain View. It’s much newer with many and more amenities than Mountain View.

Suggestion:

Dedicate the current space occupied by Mountain View to a state of the art Performing Arts Center with only limited sporting facilities. Increase the number of Pickleball courts, eliminate the Lawn Bowling since there are several other locations to Lawn Bowl, and take a very hard look at eliminating some of the other outdoor amenities since Fairway is so close which will make increased parking spaces available. I believe the new Performing Arts Center should be able to accommodate at least 900 seats so that the Sun Dial indoor concerts can be transferred to that facility.

Take advantage of a flat floor and provide retractable, terraced, theater-type seating. By using retractable seating the theater will be able to set-up a dinner-theater type environment or other special banquet type occasions.

The Performing Arts Center can be used for more than just the Players and indoor concerts. A Lecture Series could be added as well as many other venues not excluding the possibility of renting the facility to local outside community groups. The more the facility is used the more cost efficient it becomes.

Questions:

Is it fiducially responsible to…

Eliminate any amenities built at Mountain View with PIF money that will be eliminated or unusable within the required 15 year depreciable life?

Not to take the opportunity to cut costs by reducing our recreation facilities back down to seven? The addition of the Grand Center and Vintage Vehicle Club building has only increased the cost of maintenance and staff requirements and financial burden on the corporation/community.

Conclusion:

I realize this suggestion will not go over very well with those residents who live and use the facilities at Mountain View, but perhaps the bigger picture should be considered. First of all, I suspect a large number of those currently living and using Mountain View will have, unfortunately, passed-on by the time the new facility is finally completed.

Secondly, the Mountain View Project, which is not scheduled to break ground until 2024, will be closed down for at least a year, year and a half, and the people who had used that center will surely find an alternative. I would suspect that by the time the new Mountain View facility is finally completed most will have gotten themselves into a new routine and Mountain View will hardly be missed? I believe what’s good for the entire community is more important than the desires of a few. I’ve already heard comments that some folks who typically used Mountain View now go to Fairway because Mountain View has several amenities already shut down and in disrepair!

Thirdly, a Performing Arts Center has been promised for many, many years only to be pushed to the back-burners while other facilities bypassed the process and were built. And lastly, consolidating the design to just a Performing Arts Center with a few outdoor sporting facilities will greatly decrease the cost of not only building, but maintaining and staffing.

Think about fiduciary responsibility unless you don’t care that they keep raising your assessment.

Just one man opinions.

Tom Marone

 

I had to leave today's meeting before the Mountain View discussion. I am looking forward to watching it on the video and hope it doesn't take to long to show up on the website. Tom, I think you made an interesting suggestion with a retractable tiered flooring. I didn't know anything like that was available. Dinner theater events could be quite popular. Not sure of the costs for the retractable floor but perhaps the venue could then be used for other activities.

When I looked at the Mountain View Option 2 Plans on the RCSC website, I was surprised to see an outdoor screen and place to watch movies outdoors. Although it doesn't take up a great deal of space, I thought that could be "one of those items that are nice to have, but not needed." Technology changes so quickly that I can see it outdated very quickly.

Just one lady's thoughts.

Janet Curry

 

https://www.audiencesystems.com/category/retractable-seating

 

PASSED first reading on Motion # 6 on the Board 2.23.23 Agenda, a second reading is required at next month’s board meeting for final vote decision.
YES-7 NO-2 Dale Lehrer & Allan Lenefsky

“Treasurer Fast – I move that all work on the Mountain View project option 2 and building pickleball courts at Lakeview be suspended until a committee of representatives from all interested groups can be appointed to address strategic issues and alternatives. The work of this committee will be presented for member review and comment at the September 2023 Board meeting along with all data gathered by the committee.”

Motions # 1-4 passed, #5 was withdrawn. Full meeting details and RCSC video will be available soon: https://m.youtube.com/@suncityaz7348

 

Tom, you made some interesting observations! I am surprised anyone ever thought a 400 seat theater would be adequate! Today's meeting was long, for sure; but, the discussion/debate between the board members was welcome.

There were several valuable points made today and one especially stood out: building several amenities with PIF funds and then tearing them down/out several years before the end of their expected life expectancy, even though such a practice is a violation of PIF expenditure policy.

Today's Finance Commiittee motions should shed new light on the RCSC finances, take some of the mystery out of "the numbers," and most importantly, provide better guidance for future decision making.

Board President Kat Kimmel did a very good job when wrapping up the meeting today. No doubt - their plate is very full! Members need to participate at all levels. Stay engaged AND STAY INFORMED.

 

Not being a financial guy, it makes me wonder what happens when an asset is sold or eliminated prior to its tax deductible depreciable life? How does that affect your past and upcoming tax status and filing? I would suspect somebody has to reimburse Uncle Sam for taking a deduction that didn't fulfill its useable life span?

If only there was a way to do it! I guess most don't care how somebody else spends their money?

 

Thanks, Tom. Now it makes sense. I have seen a lot of retractable bleachers in schools. These are similar but with comfortable, soft theater seats. Brilliant! Then the venue could be a flat floor for some activities but become tiered seating for the appropriate events. Thanks for the suggestion!

Regarding what happens with an asset that is no longer needed, I suggest there be a Board policy on how to dispose of property over a certain dollar value, perhaps $5,000 - 10,oo0, which would need Board approval. (It isn't in the Articles of Incorporation or RCSC Bylaws but I haven't looked in Board policies for it.) The auditor could provide guidance on this.

 

And don't forget, with retaining the flat floor it will be more accessible to those with disabilities. They can just roll themselves in in their wheel-chairs or walkers into the auditorium and take a position at the front.

I think retractable seating is a big win-win for everybody? Now...if we can only convince the board!

 

Gary Osier did extensive research on retractable seating for the LRPC. He investigated function, cost, and availability.
Like anything, it has advantages and dis-advantages and is certainly worth consideration.

 

Gary had also looked closely at pre-fab buildings and was blown off on that topic as well. There's always trade-offs but the argument he had shoved in his face on both counts was they didn't meet community standards. Really? What might those be? Over paying for things and getting less than what the membership deserves?

To Bruce's point, the long range planning committee has been bantering about both these topics with little or no interest from board members who felt they knew better. When you have no strategic long range plan, no concept of how pieces of the long range puzzle fits together (like other communities do) you simply let ego driven projects by boards and general managers who have their vision for a better Sun City rule the day.

Yesterday was fascinating as one member after another told us how we had to proceed with a project that would cripple Sun City for the next 6-10 years. On top of the 40 million dollar Mountain View project was the 20 million dollar golf course desert landscaping conversion. The real question is does these two projects give us our best bang for the buck? We can use a nice theater with comfortable seating. We also need more flat space for events. Are the two compatible to serve both purposes?

They might be, but the board never stopped to consider that alternative. They just plowed ahead trying to jam two expensive buildings, 2 new pools on to a totally reconfigured footprint. Then to insult us all, they added phase 3 that will never happen. Hell, even still yesterday the former board president was telling us how the process to reach their conclusions was so democratically reached. Ya, right, like waving the second reading for a 40 million dollar project that would drive the membership wild. For those who have forgotten, they passed it in June when only small group was present and waived the reading that should have happened in Sept (you know, the meeting they walked off the stage after 2 minutes and then threatened members with arrests).

Like i said yesterday, wanting a theater is one thing, but when you attach a 40 million dollar price tag to it, there's a wholly different question. If the 15 or 16 speakers yesterday who spoke against the motion passing are convinced the community wants this Taj Mahal, put it to a vote like they did with the Sun Bowl in 1981 and lets see it still has community support.

 

Yeah, he did all that research when they were looking into a building for the Vintage Vehicle Club. They have such a nice variety of architectural facades that you don't even know its a metal building.

Gary's suppose to be meeting with another retractable seating guy today! He'd be an excellent guy to put on the proposed new Mountain View Committee. They need to include people on that committee that don't necessarily have any personal self-serving agendas. It needs to be common sense and what's best for the entire community not just the Players and those who live in the vicinity of MV.

 

It sounds like Gary is doing some of the work that Management could be doing. Thanks, Gary! To be fair, perhaps Management has researched retractable seating but just hasn't communicated that with the Membership. I have heard Mr. Cook state several times that our staff can only do so much at a time. I can appreciate his comments, but I sit there thinking of other organizations I have been associated with, particularly the local hospital back home. Think of this, we build an entire new hospital and medical campus from the ground up while keeping the existing hospital open and staffed 24 hours a day/365 days a year. There were five or six members of senior management to do all of this. Of course, the new construction was contracted out to architects, construction managers, financial advisors, etc. but the Board was involved in the decision making the entire time. Initially our hospital CEO was against building a new hospital but came on board once the financial gurus showed it would save money in the long run since the existing one was landlocked. Thanks to that CEO for delaying his retirement until after the new hospital was built and operational. That whole area, once corn fields, has exploded with medical related enterprises. That all was a result of the Board of Directors requesting a new long range plan, another thing our CEO didn't find necessary at the time.

It is nice to know that RCSC has completed 4,000 work orders, but I hope Management isn't doing those things. That raises the questions: Do we have enough staff? Are the appropriate people doing the assigned tasks? Do the job descriptions need reviewing and updating? Although that would be something Management would do, if I were a Board member, I would be asking that if I kept hearing the same excuses. Again, a long range plan, with priorities, could help with timelines for completing projects.

 

This is the kind of crap that falls under the category of senseless when boards and worse yet the former general manager believes (mistakenly) she has every answer. I can never get the words out of my head from the former board president when questioned why we dumped the long range planning committee, he brazenly told us all: "we have one, it's called the board of directors." He was a former military officer who loved the chain of command and saw the GM as his boss. And then we wonder how we got to where we are today?

 

Seems in the past we had a few board members who were only interested in THEIR ideas and didn't want to hear anything about retractable seating or metal buildings. One of those same directors made deals with the pickleballer's behind the backs of the entire board.

It's good to see that the board is actually interested in the views of the entire community and not just creating a monument to themselves! Last time they did that we ended up with Grand Center!

And it's good that some people are taking their own initiative to get involved and do some of the homework that management isn't willing to do!

I just hope nobody goes after Gary like they did to Lori!

 

Bill, question: I may be mistaken, however wasn't a portion of the parking lot on 99th and Hutton in the Bell Center originally allocated as intended for a theater?

If so, what type of footprint is needed to buld a theater separately from Mountain View required? It seems the parking at Bell would be more adequate and less disruptive than the MV location.

I'm fairly new to SC, we have been here 4 years. I'm wondering why bulldoze MV when a smart phased remodel could revitalize that facility instead of shutting it down for potentially the remainder of many residents lives.

Thoughts?

 

I always thought it was where the Farmers Market is held, but Ben found in his research it was on the corner of 99th and Bell Road where the shopping center is. The plan was for it to be large and expensive but with a 5 million dollar overrun on the Bell Center it went away and the land was used for a shopping center that was sold off. The RCSC has never done a very good job of identifying what size theater would fit on any given open space and the county requirements regarding parking spaces needed.