It's Not Even About Golf Anymore?

Don't hold your breath. Trust us. That should be good enough.

 

I was told following the meeting the other day, golfers have just given up on the RCSC fixing this fatal flaw in the selling of half price full play golf passes to outsiders that's why they are not coming to meetings. They raised the issue at the April member/board exchange meeting and the board over time responded; no big deal, a non-issue. In spite of the woman at the meeting the other day telling me i didn't know what i was talking about regarding golf, she couldn't be more wrong. I understand it perhaps better than most.

We have evolved to a flawed system of governance; and at the October member/board exchange i will demonstrate it so everyone can understand exactly what i am saying. Even the members that think i hate golf (which by the way i don't, not even a little) will be able to understand what i am saying. I have been told repeatedly members have a hard time understanding golf, golf pricing, scheduling tee times and the entire gamut of issues. I will make this really, really simple.

I do need to say this to everyone reading/following this thread: the RCSC has spent the past 15 years telling you stay away and just enjoy all Sun City has to offer. It worked beyond their wildest imagination. Becoming the original fun city was intended to do exactly what it did; allow them to run everything, make every decision. If they were always right, i guess it wouldn't matter. To be clear, nobody is always right.

Think not? How did allowing them to make the decisions regarding our technology work for us? How abut the air conditioning being taken from the building plans where members work on their cars year round? And, for golfers, the most obvious, allowing non-members to take our tee times, golf for half price and give them access to golf cars ahead of members? Who, by the way, were told to go try and find a tee time at a different Sun City course...while non-residents played their hearts out on the members courses.

Let me be very clear, there is a tiny group of golfers who hate what i am talking about. They are the ones buying the full play passes and then inviting their friends living outside Sun City to come here and buy full play passes. As their group of 30 or more has aged, they've lost some of their group and the outsiders filled the gap. They've managed to take our courses hostage by paying the additional charge to bypass the lottery and get them the tee times they want. I get it, you want what you want and we should all pay for it.

There-in is the problem with the structure of our golf division. There's been virtually no accountability, we've simply just kept on doing what we have always been doing. The resurgence of golf coming off the pandemic was a once in a lifetime opportunity. We squandered it by selling full play passes to non-residents at a fraction of the real cost. Outside golf play is up and some of it is from non-members paying the full price for a round of golf. That in fact helps subsidize golf rates for all of us. That's a good thing. Giving it away and asking every RCSC member to pay for some bloke living outside the walls is lunacy.

October will prove to be a really interesting month.

 

I have started a new thread, "golf revisited." I got some clarification regarding the 990 forms we have been viewing. Thanks to Bill Cook and Kevin McCurdy (director of finance) for the information. Those forms showed losses of 2 million dollars plus per year over the past 12 years. Turns out some of those looses were depreciation taken in large part for PIF projects. There's roughly 30 million dollars depreciated over 30 years, which reduces the money spent from yearly capital expenditures by at least a million dollars per year.

That said, they told me golf hasn't broke even in a very long time. I always knew that, but never (even while serving on the board), by how much. The good news is, they feel golf is close to breaking even this year. I have no way to verify that until the year end numbers are out, so we'll see.

To get there though (breaking even), it has to include the 150 outside full play passes which will raise around 300K. It will take 12,000-13,000 rounds out of the hands of members and let non-members play for less money than members. It will also guarantee 100 of those full play pass purchasers golf cars at a fraction of the cost.

That was why the this thread was entitled; "It's not even about golf anymore." We have been subsiding golf for years. I have been told by countless numbers of people golf is an important amenity and i agree, it is. That's why i have supported most of the spending from PIF for maintaining our courses. That was why the PIF was passed in 1999.

The real question for the community and the board is this; should we be selling cheap golf to outsiders who get tee times ahead of RCSC members? I will close out this thread here and continue on in the new one "golf revisited." Thanks to all who have followed along. I do appreciate the information yesterday from management in straightening out my numbers. By the way, the argument i got from the GM was everyone is happy with what is going on in golf. I am curious, are you okay with our tee times and our golf cars going to outsiders ahead of the members?

 

Seeing as members/readers are still following this thread, i will reprint here what i wrote in "golf revisited." I think it is pretty clear on how i feel.

Let's be really, really blunt here: 12,000-13,000 rounds to non-members who have equal access to the web portal, just like a member, is creating problems. We know when they are in the lottery, they sometimes get tee times members have applied for. We also know when they come in and join their friends in groups of 30 or more, they pay the $2 charge and bypass the lottery completely. We know the hundred non-residents who buy the pass with cars are guaranteed one will be there for them, and we know members are told, go see if you can find a course where a golf car might be available. We also know the $500 add on for a car is less than half what a member would pay (based on 100 rounds played), and we fully suspect many of those 50 non golf car passes jump in with their buddies to further reduce the cost to them. We also know if a member wants to guarantee a golf car, they are told to buy the non-member full play pass for $2,750; a $1200 increase over their current $1,550.

Knowing all of these things hasn't mattered one tiny whit to several of the board members. The general manager is looking out for the business side of the equation, has overridden the board's obligation to the community side of the equation. Think about that. So we are all very clear here, the board has one employee to oversee, the general manager works for them. The tragedy is, we've spent the past 15 years conditioning board members to be loyal to the gm.

That's not Bill Cook's fault. As Emily said, he inherited a slew of problems. Unfortunately he is stuck in the middle and there is no escaping it. We all know golf hasn't made money in a very long time. I would argue i am far more comfortable subsidizing it for the members than i am for some guy living in Peoria. This notion we are going to reach break even by giving it away is folly. It always has been, it always will be.

I just posted a photo on the Facebook page, Sun City Chat Arizona of the Sun Bowl. I've been posting pictures along with the history there for a year and half. In today's story, i mentioned in 1981, the RCSC asked the membership to vote to take ownership of the Sun Bowl venue or not. Thank God the vote was a yes, it is truly an iconic setting. How about we do the same thing now.

Let's send out a vote to the membership and ask them how many think it makes sense to let non-members come into the community and play on our courses for half price. Be sure to tell them how cheaply we guarantee them a golf car and they have equal or better access to our tee times. Anyone want to hazard a guess on the outcome of that vote?

This is where this all breaks down for me. If the community were polled, i suspect that would quickly end the stupidity. The break down is on the board's end of the bargain, their job is to be there for the membership. Could i be anymore clear?

 

After yesterday's member/board exchange, it's pretty clear the idea that outsiders can come into the community and buy cheap golf (at least those buying full play passes) will continue. Along with the passes, they'll get cheaper golf cars (though they claim some sort of equalization for members), cheaper golf rates, still having access to the members web portal plus the right to join groups of 30 or more and bypass the lottery completely.

The goods news is, golf revenue is up. The bad news is, it won't stay up. It's the "covid19 bump" and they know it will level off. They figured it would be this year, but it clearly has lasted, due in part to giving away cheap golf. It is a business model fraught with problems. The only way to sustain it is to continue to sell golf cheaper than everyone else. That's fine and dandy as long as you can ask the membership to subsidize the game.

Yesterday we were all treated to the wonderful sounding report regarding golf. If you weren't there, watch it back. Once you do, tell me at anytime during the presentation you heard anyone mention the "expense" side of the equation? We heard glowing reports about revenue, not one peep about how much seed, fertilizer, labor costs, equipment costs and water costs were soaring; and make no mistake about it, they are.

Sun City is special. We live in a fantasy world, a bubble where things impacting those living outside the walls are glossed over. Since the day we opened, it's been that way. It was the allure, part of the charm of a Disney-like world for seniors. The problem with ignoring the problems and kicking the can down the road is at some point reality sets in. Selling cheap golf to outsiders was never a part of the business model, nor should it ever be.

Sadly, it's the new normal. Those of us who have paid for these courses with PIF and yearly assessments are now expected to subsidize golfers living in Surprise, Peoria and Glendale. If you think not, ask to see the expenses. Revenue is meaningless if you don't compare one to the other.

 

This release came out the other day from the RCSC. They had mentioned they would be doing something like this for the members. Curious how golfers view it?
"As announced at the Member/Board Exchange on October 10, 2022, RCSC is giving Members the opportunity to purchase an annual golf pass that includes a golf cart, or add a golf cart to their existing No Fee Golf Pass. The fee to add a golf cart to an existing No Fee Annual Pass will be $450 per year. No Fee Annual Golf Pass with Cart – All Courses price will be $2,000 per year, while No Fee Annual Golf Pass with Cart – Executive price will be $1,825 per year. This opportunity will be limited to 40 Members (both current and future Pass purchasers). If you are interested in this opportunity, please contact Cardholder Services at Lakeview Center via email at members@suncityaz.org and request that your name be placed on the “Annual No Fee - Cart Inclusive Pass” interest list.

We will be accepting names of those interested Members until close of business on Friday, November 18. If the number of interested Members exceeds 40, a lottery will be held to determine those Members that will be eligible for a cart inclusive pass. Those eligible will be notified on November 21, 2022. Eligible Members who are not current Golf Passholders will be able to purchase their Golf Pass between November 21 and December 9, 2022. Current Golf Passholders that are eligible will have the opportunity to upgrade their pass to include a Cart at the time of renewal of their current Golf pass.

Please be aware that the Golf Cart inclusive Pass will cover the passholder only; additional riders will be charged a cart seat rental fee at the time of check-in."

The good news is it's cheaper than non-members pay, is it something RCSC members who golf want?

 

So is RCSC going to hire golf cart monitors to be sure the rider has paid? Ridiculous idea. If you want a cart pay for it when you play. And it’s first come, first served. Take the cart out of the equation.

 

I couldn't agree more Larry. Imagine the lottery for a member to get a golf car, when you know a non-resident is being guaranteed one. Think about that for a minute.

 

They look and act more irresponsible every day. They are just reacting to pressure; not in a thoughtful or deliberative way.

 

Bill, I said a couple months back about the blowback on golf. A name you are being labeled as is loud mouth kook who doesn't know how golf in Sun City works by Residents and Members. Also, I think most of you, other than a few old-timers here have lived in Sun City 5 years or less and are the complainers on most of the news boards. Most of you like myself when I moved here a quarter of a century ago didn't like some of the things that have worked here for decades. Now, I will say this once again. What do you all consider prime tee time? I think the definition that you are whining about is the tee times you expect to get any time you go to any golf course. It's never worked that way in all the years I have been here and never will. In your own towns that you came from, it doesn't work that way either and you know it. You are the small group on all these boards that feel you are entitled and everyone should drop everything to please you. There are multiple golf groups that my own father played in here in Sun City that are still together passing the torch to the next generation. To even believe for a second that you are going to sweep them aside for you anytime you want to play will never happen. We have multiple courses and multiple times. If you cannot get on the course of choice this time of year be patient. Now this post that I'm writing here has nothing to do with quote outsiders etc. It is a post that has to do with a lot of spoiled brats that have moved to Sun City who think they're better than everybody else and expect everybody to drop everything that they're doing and change every rule just to satisfy them and that's not the way this world works folks. So you guys can trash me all you want cuz I really don't care it's taking me quite a while to type this this morning and that's just the way it is but you knew bees to Sun City you can make it better but causing trouble is it the way to do it and you've got a whole lot of people upset and it's not for the right reason. I said that this golf thing would upset the golf world here and it has but not the way you thought it would these members have been in these groups for decades. I also find it interesting that the biggest whiners are from the mountain view area. Personally I think they should flatten that rec center totally. They need to put something of that value in a more secure neighborhood in that area is not secure anything south of grand unfortunately is not a good area. Fairway is a nice rec center and I know it gets very busy and I also know mountain view was not a very busy place. But with pickleball growing to be one of the fastest booming sports worldwide we need to put a major complex up for the pickleball players that is in the central part of Sun City. We also need to designate one swimming pool to be a sports pool for lap swimming water volleyball etc. That's my rant of the morning I might even have more words than Bill did this morning. And for you newbies that the world should stop for you that have lived here for a little or no time at all take a deep breath and enjoy what you have because there's a lot to enjoy before your health goes south. And consuming your time with all your negative vibes is going to age you faster than anything else so go sit down have a cup of coffee go meet your neighbors go to a rec center be positive put a smile on your face and enjoy life. You can't please everybody all the time but patience goes a long way in life learn it you'll be happier!

 

Not to be concerned say what, you'll never write more words than me. While i appreciate your comments, a couple of thoughts regarding your remarks. After 45 years plus of sobriety, i live my life exactly how i need to to stay sober. I could give two shits whether people like or dislike me. Almost every day i do things around Sun City to try and make it a better place to live. I need zero recognition or acknowledgement for the things i do beyond what you read here.

You said this: "now this post that i am writing here has nothing to do with quote, outsiders golf." Dude, this thread, all 13,000 reads of it is exactly about outsider golf. That's why it is entitled "it's not even about golf anymore." If you read back my comments, i have repeatedly encouraged the Sun City golfing community to make those decisions in conjunction with the board. I'm no expert regarding golf course management. I am smart enough to know you can't run golf courses without subsidies if you are charging people to play for $5 a round. It simply doesn't work.

Again, not my concern. You should know after following this thread, the issue is non-members coming into Sun City and playing on the cheap. There's not an age restricted community that does that. Outsiders pay a premium. They always have, they always should. To be very clear, i understand why a RCSC member who plays in groups with more than 30 hates what i am saying. They need their friends living outside the walls to fill out their group. They want them to buy full play non-resident passes and to get cheap golf car rentals to insure they keep playing with their group. With 30 or more players they bypass the lottery.

We know there are 4200 Sun City golfers. Roughly 1200 buy the full play pass (which by the way hasn't had an increase in price now for 8 years). That means the most outspoken critics of what i am saying equates to a tiny percentage of Sun City's population dictating the terms for how Sun City functions. We all subsidize golf, every member living here. I honestly don't care any longer. I've written it dozens of times in this thread, i'll write it again for your benefit: We will always need to subsidize golf for our members, we should never have to subsidize golf for those living outside our walls. NEVER.

I'm not sure why that is so damned difficult to get your head around. It has nothing to do with the past, or the present, or even the future. It's about what is right and what is wrong. There isn't a reason on God's green earth where my 80, 90 and 100 year old neighbors should be funding outside play by non-members. You know that, i know that and even the groups that are filling out with non-residents know that. They're the ones that just want what they want.

This is where this discussion gets so interesting. Sun City's history is filled with ugly disputes over direction. In so many cases, the residents made decisions. The RCSC wasn't afraid to ask them for answers. In 2009 when the quorum was changed, that all came to a crashing halt. Then, every step of the way, the memberships voices were silenced, bit by bit. The idea you are promoting, don't worry, be happy was exactly what got us to this point.

You just ripped the Mountain View project. I have mixed emotions because we should have had a performing arts theater 10 years ago. Now they are planning to build the 40 million dollar Taj Mahal and are telling us it was member driven. The Player's plans were never anything like we are looking at today. A basketball and volleyball gym with a walking track is the result of a handful of ardent supporters. Beyond that, it is the wishful thinking of a few of board members who know those wanting something will buy in no matter the costs.

We can't fix our technology so consequently we can't build buildings with proper security features. We've watched as RCSC employees have scratched out air conditioning were members work in to save a few bucks...and then replacing it at far more expensive costs. Who in their right mind builds a multi- million dollar building, used year round, and tries to cool it using a swamp cooler? We do and worse yet. we know, it was in the original blue prints; and then it wasn't.

We know life long learning, an incredibly important amenity was pulled from the RCSC budget back in 2006 when the Sun Dial roof collapsed. We also know it was never put back and let volunteers try and run it on a shoe string and wholly inadequate spaces. We know the dog people want an indoor arena and we watched as they agreed to put it on the PIF budget. It's where members wishes go to die. Ultimately the board's make those decisions. We also know management makes the decisions on what capital improvements are done, the board has zero say. Huh?

That's what happens when everyone stays home and pays no attention. That's what happens when the general manager, in concert with a bunch of golfers elected to the board, turns their back on the rest of the community's needs and makes golf their object of affection.

I've been here a long time, paid more attention than most and can easily close my eyes and pay no attention. That's not how Sun City was built or why it has been successful. In 2006, when the new gm was hired, they inherited an amazing community with a spectacular amenity package. They also had the foresight of the RCSC board in 1999 that passed the PIF. From 2000-2030 the RCSC will have collected between 200k and 300k. That is an enormous amount of money.

Has it been spent wisely? How much say has the community had in where we are and more importantly where we are headed? We know this; the decisions made regarding golf have been made by a very few. Worse yet, those decisions were made with board members having virtually no clue how much golf was costing us. That too should never, NEVER happen. Oversight is their job and you simply cannot do it of you don't know.

Hope that helps.

 

It’s crystal clear who the whiner is in your post. And by the way, I don’t give a shit how groups your father played in. The complaint is give preferential treatment to outsiders. Nowhere in the country does a non-resident or non-member get a better deal. I’ve been here since 2009 and I use the golf courses multiple times a week year round. If you want more pickle ball, buy the building at 111th and Thunderbird and convert it to more courts.

 

I try and cut some slack to say what most of the time Larry. He/she means well. Unfortunately say what's comments don't often play well. The beauty of Sun City is everyone should be entitled to their point of view; and be able to express themselves. That said, i would also love to hear the logic for whatever position they are taking. The idea he/she should dismiss the "outside full play passes" as a throwaway boggles the mind. That is exactly what this thread has been about.

There is a budget and finance meeting tomorrow (Weds Oct 19). Hopefully we will all get a look at the projections for golf. Will the increase slow down outside play? Or will the fact we are the best bargain in the free world for golf keep driving sales of those passes so non-members can keep claiming members tee times? Will the new golf car policy make any difference? It might. If i was one of those RCSC golfers buying the full play pass and playing 300 times a year ($5 per round), i could quickly do the math and see that $450 golf car deal puts my butt in a chair for $1.50 per round. It becomes way cheaper to rent than to have my own.

And let's suppose somehow the RCSC, who has one employee at the golf course, figures out a way to check to make sure the "other butt in the chair" has payed their $450, that means those 300 rounds of golf is netting them $3 per round for car rental. Does anyone think that's the going rate for golf car rental anywhere in the USA?

The RCSC is continuing to build their golf pricing structure around cheap golf, cheap car rentals and outside play. In my former life, i worked in retail. We called them loss leaders. That's simply selling a product below cost to attract shoppers. The standard joke that went went with "loss leaders" was we would make it up in volume. Seems to me as if the RCSC management team has embraced "loss leaders" as their business model.

 

Quite often when I hear someone say “we’ve always done it like that” I immediately think we’ll that’s exactly why the process needs an immediate review. If you go to Sun City Country Club’s website, a round of golf for a non-member is $61. I contend that any of our registration courses are equal to that course, and the bunkers are gravel pits, not sand traps. So why does management think we need to give away our golf?
I will listen to what anyone has to say, but once they show me they have no knowledge of the subject, I quickly lose interest and patience.
It’s time to not only review the pricing policy but also the golf management team. They have obviously lost their way.

 

What Larry said above. I'm not a golfer any longer, but i believe the golfing community should have a much louder more vocal voice. Sadly, the only ones that seem to matter any more is management.

 

I am a golfing member of Sun City. I do own an annual pass to play all of the Sun City courses. In 2010 the cost for a member's Annual pass was $1,450. The cost for the public annual pass was $2,000/$2,500 with a cart. In 2013 members annual pass went up to $1,475, in 2016 it went up to $1,525, in 2017 it went up to $1,550, which is the current rate. I do not remember the members complaining about those increases because we are all aware that we have a good deal going in Sun City. That was $100 increase to members. During that time the public pass stayed the same $2,000? This year 2022 they sold 80 public golfers cart passes. I am not sure, but this past peak season was the first I had heard anything from members about not being able to get carts. Maybe they have oversold our golf carts due to the limited supply. Maybe the Public passes should not be able to play all of our courses. Lakes West and North courses only have 12 or 14 carts available. Golfers know the public passes are making our golf affordable. But the Public is getting a killer deal that we are paying for. The Management raised the public pass rate to $2,250 in August. That was their first raise in 12 years! Was it enough??

 

Thanks for chiming in Carol. This entire thread has been about outside play. The public is getting a "killer deal" and all of us are paying for it. Sun City was never built for outsider's to get killer deals. Somehow we got there. It's why i have long argued give the golfers the data and let them decide what's fair. This latest with the $450 guaranteed golf car for a member has the potential to make matters worse, not better. I suspect management felt compelled to prove they were treating members better than outsiders. I simply don't see how this fixes golf car availability, it might actually make it worse.

 

The revenue from non-members is a really nice bonus, but my whole premise is at what cost? I don’t expect for one minute to be able to log on and get my preferred tee time at my favorite course anytime I decide I want to play, however, what should also be considered, is how many members and non members aren’t playing because they can’t get a tee time in a particular window. My entire argument is that outsiders are getting too good of a deal. Nobody is even considering something that those familiar with business and finance know as ‘opportunity cost’. How many people would have booked that round at full fare if was available but was being used by outsiders at a dramatically reduced rate? I don’t have that answer, but if golf management would drill down into the data, they could give us better information.

 

Perfectly stated Larry. They are able to provide golfers all of the data you mentioned, they elect not to. Sun City golf has been built around number of rounds played and to get there, they need to sell cheap golf. It's time to at least have an honest evaluation of our golfing structure. Let the members of the golfing community determine what's "fair." As far as outside cheap play, it shouldn't exist except when tee times haven't been taken by members. You are so right, arguing cheap full play passes would be a sum net loss is foolishness. Those prime time tee times would be taken by members or non-residents willing to pay the going rates.