The bastards did it!

The heck with November, we need to use proxy votes for the October General Membership Meeting!

And I think this is a bunch of bullshit as well! First of all, we know from the Articles of Incorporation that the Membership has final word on any decision and that's because the Board is subordinate to the Membership. So that is a direct contradiction!

And Robert's Rules will even tell you, "...no action of the board can alter or conflict with any decision made by the assembly of the society, and any such action of the board is null and void." (RONR 49:7)

 

My bad FYI, i meant to say at the October membership meeting.

 

As you and everyone else should.

Over the years I have found the Board and the GM often make statements that are patently false. In response, as we are seeing here in this thread, many of us have rigorously posted references (eg, the ACTUAL wording of the state statute(s), the ACTUAL wording of our own AIs and BLs, etc.) to expose the Board/GM's "fake news". I did a lot of that on the prior forum. Why doesn't that work? The Board/GM generally either a)ignore us completely, or at best b)issue a response claiming their lawyers said/told them... blah, blah, blah.

IMO there are several reasons. They know they have a credibility advantage because they are, after all, THE BOARD. And invoking a legal opinion adds even more credibility in the eyes of most members. The Board/GM have the means to get their word out via email blast, Sun Views, a cooperative press, etc. They know there is no easy means for members to pose a threat to their control based on the changes they made to the Corporate documents -- they have removed all but a lawsuit or significant member revolt as a means to hold them accountable -- and they (rightly IMO) think the probability of either occurring is low.

We, the "opposition", deal from a considerable disadvantage. We basically have this forum and letters to the editor to get the word out. Members who don't follow the daily goings on in SC take what we've said as just another conspiracy theory/"Fake News". I've found the average Sun Citian isn't motivated enough to read our AIs, BLs, or even the CCRs they signed, so to expect them to read excerpts from the AZ Statutes would be beyond wishful thinking. So what to do?

We need to get a voice louder than this forum to get the truth out. A voice that can reach all the community to dispel the lies and half truths, educate the members, encourage them to participate to regain participation in the management of THEIR rec centers. It needs to include good things as well as bad. And if we can't get enough members involved to muster a quorum, we have, IMO, little chance in succeeding. Even taking the legal route, the courts, the Corp Commission, and legislature would likely ask "why, if the problems are as you say, can't you get a quorum to support the changes you seek?" That's a damn good question. We'll need a plan, leaders, and a sense of community outreach to succeed. As Bill would say, look to our history to see how they did it.

 

Over the years IC, there's not been much we have disagreed on. Everything written above is spot on yet again. Legal actions are silly on their face, at least as a community. Perhaps the fired board members have challenges but ultimately the question becomes is it worth it. When i was at SCHOA we had a board member who had a restraining order filed against him. It was bullshit and the goal was to simply get him to quit. We called him the bulldog and rather than go quietly in the night, he wrote a check to an attorney for $3000 and went after them for their actions. They quickly backed down and they walked away. SCHOA's errors and omissions carrier's paid him back but how many people would go to that length? Not many, hell i doubt i would have.

Your point and SCR's point was anything we say or write here or in the Independent is simply print on pages or paper. It changes nothing. Butts in chairs is the only thing that will make a difference. It was how Sun City was built and why it succeeded. It's that simple. The problem is, the rewriting of community documents has changed the rules of the game. As i wrote earlier, that will be this gm's legacy. One board member likes to say "there should be a symbiotic relationship between the board and the community." Interesting comments because there are multiple types of symbiotic relationships. Ideally both parties should benefit; can we agree, that's not where we are right now?

I know i get off on tangents and stray far afield sometimes, but ultimately i went back to the Museum because our history is the one place i believe we can actually make a difference going forward. I don't know how we reach other people. That said, the numbers reading this thread are surprisingly large. They need to reach out to friends and club members to show up come the second Monday in September (the 13th). It is the one thing that scares the crap out of the board. This is our chance to get board and management to understand the community belongs to us, not them.

 

Based on what I've learned from the many comments on this blog is that the only "symbiotic" relationship that exists is the one between the board and the GM???

 

It is an excellent observation on your part FYI. There's been a handful of board members who haven't bought into the love fest with the gm over the years. Some of us stayed and argued, others walked away frustrated and others were fired. Overall the idea that the workload of board members was reduced usually was viewed as a win-win by especially the golfers on the board. I am sure Carol could tell you how often work sessions were dictated by the tee-times, typically the board's officers had.

There are volumes written on relationships between boards and management. Clearly for-profit corporations are wholly different than non-profits. The first day Karen stepped to the mic the hand writing was on the wall. Her background was from that exact setting and understood how it should work. I suspect she knew well in advance of ever being seated the setting she was walking into was less than ideal.

I know in talking with Barbara Brehm, it took less than a year to clearly see the picture. At her last Museum board meeting as liaison she stopped me after the meeting and said several things that stunned me. Again, her background was in the field of property management and as she started digging she was angry about how sloppy the board was in oversight. She told me quite bluntly she was not going to stand by and watch it. She figured by turning to board members they would quickly support her concerns. When i told her who cut her heart out, she was surprised and disappointed.

All of which goes to your comment FYI. Board members are supposed to be a collective body with duties above and beyond being the gm's stooges. That symbiotic relationship Hoffer spouts about sounds good when he says it, but the simple truth is we elect them as our representatives. I would love to know when the oath of office was written they are now using. I find it hard to believe it was ever intended to be swearing an allegiance to the RCSC. Sadly, i have no idea where to find the oath's used back in the 80's and 90's. It would not surprise me one bit to find it too had been rewritten to fit the current narrative.

 

Well....we all know it isn't going to be easy or fast to put the toothpaste back in the tube!!! And we, the Members, certainly aren't going to get any assistance from the board. I still believe there needs to be some sort of totally independent citizen action/watchdog group or committee. If we don't organize we will never effect change.

Perhaps we should do our own vetting of board candidates and publicly announce our blessings on the candidates? If the candidate wants our endorsement then they will sit for an interview!

Bottom Line: If we're all just going sit here and bitch among ourselves nothing will ever change, and each time we allow them get away with something, the more severe their next act will probably be!

 

I don't disagree with you FYI, the question is how? We've already seen an effort from within by ARS to build something organized. I would argue their end result was far from what you are proposing but the ability to do what they did ended in failure and dragged on for 20 years. I would give her an A for effort and something much lower from a goals perspective. The simple reality is we can't use the rec centers. They've built a structure that prevents us from doing so.

Exchanged emails with a person out of state the other day who is following the blog here. I asked him point blank if he was interested in running and the response was pointed; concerned about how much time it would take and especially the way Karen and Barbara were treated, why would anyone put themselves through that? No question, it will have a chilling effect on the candidate pool.

I did watch the latest release by the RCSC In Focus part 2. Nice to see Rich and Sue all excited about being the ones to get the theater built under their watch, 27 years and all. I didn't see any mention of Karen being fired or who was replacing her or what they were going to do with the clubs they were kicking to the curb, but what the hell, they shouldn't matter i guess.

I don't see any point in getting out in front of anything until we see where we are following the first board meeting in Sept. I've written it several times, the screw job is just starting and who knows how people will feel once they do their thing. If the anger/frustration is real and sustainable, then we can try and take it to the next level.

 

Hate to keep repeating my self, but the only way to get the attention of the board is for the Members/cardholders to show up in volumes at the first board meeting in September.
That means 1300 or more people.

Member/Cardholders/ those reading and interested in this topic - Please make it a point to show up at the first board meeting in September.
Without member involvement, there will be no changes except those that the board makes to further limit member involvement.
This thread if I'm not mistaken is about the dismissal of Karen from the board with a secondary subject of Mountain View, pickleball, tennis, and other amenities that so far have been eliminated at Mountain View s of the last board meeting.

If you care about Karen's dismissal and/or amenities being eliminted - show up in September.

Members elect board members. In my view, the questions asked of potential board members are rarely blunt and to the point.
Questions should be for example "Who do you represent - the members or the GM"?
Are you willing to put in the hours required to research any requested changes to RCSC documents?
Are you capable of making your own decision on any subject before the board or do go along to get along.
Are you interested in making Sun City a better place or are you running to stroke your own ego.

Harsh questions, but they are questions that must be asked and answered.

Over the past years the only candidate that impressed me was Karen. There are others on this forum who believe that Kat is a good candidate. Was not impressed by her.

Current board members are not interested in spending any time working for the members. They are willing to take the easy way out and be YES people.

After the Karen and Barbara episodes, I don't know why anyone would want to run for the board.

What happens if they get no candidates? Who amongst can answer this question with facts and authority? How about a current board member?

Did anyone expect to see anything from the board in the RCSC In Focus Part 2 release regarding Karen's dismissal?
I for one do not even pay attention to that crap. They release what they want and only what they want.

Again - Member/Cardholders - please show up at the first board meeting in September.

 

Hmmm --wouldn't be the first time I took a folding chair to someone's garage to meet with a group of like-minded "activists" planning a "coup" about something, LOL

But since it's hot in garages these days -- a ZOOM meeting or two could be useful (providing they're structured and there is a leader) in providing a meeting space to seed getting organized, form some committees, etc. Once more people get involved I suspect other meeting venues will pop up -- eg, restaurants, church meeting rooms, a dance studio, gym, community room, etc.

 

You guys are all on point, thought you might find this interesting from our friends in Sun City West:

Director Mancuso is recalled in SCW election
Recreation Centers of Sun City West Governing Board Director Lou Mancuso was recalled in an Aug. 16 Recall Election.
About 78 percent of the votes were cast to recall Mancuso, while about 22 percent elected to retain him.
The community saw an impressive turnout with 34 percent of the community voting. The vast majority were cast early, with just 229 voters showing up on Election Day. Owner Members in good standing may cast one ballot for each property they own. There were a total of 8,593 voters casting 8,765 votes based on their property ownership. There were 49 abstentions.
Monday’s Election numbers compare to 4,143 who voted for Mancuso in the regular March Election.

 

Here's the rest of the story on Sun City West: They allow comments on their website from residents; i know a very novel idea for sure. The piece was just sent and posted and yet a dozen comments with several angry at how Lou was treated are there for all to read. Really? Gee whiz, wonder how they'd feel about Sun City? At least there it was an action by the community; truly a process of self-governance. 1000 plus members signed a recall petition (on RCSCW grounds) and then a little over a third of the community's population voted to recall him. Here 7 board members arbitrarily decided to kick Karen off the board; just like they did Barbara the year before.

The thing is, they (Sun City West) embraced an open concept of governance and voluntarily agreed to be dictated by Title 33 of the Arizona State Statutes. It was around 2000 when the Sun City West Organization for Open Governance (SWOOG) got busy and rather than an ugly lawsuit the parties agreed running the community in the light of day was better than in the dark behind closed doors. It's just a cleaner form of governance.

And before anyone suggests it, no i am not moving there. I bought here because i liked our community documents and the structure we had better than theirs. Sadly, we've been stripped of much of a voice as the gm has changed almost every pertinent document to create a safe haven for any and all actions the board takes. You know, keep us safe from all those who want to harm the community...did i mention what a load of crap that was?

To all of the points above, yes we have options. Any number of ways to move forward, especially with the October membership meeting coming. The test will be that second Monday in September at 9 am at the Sun Dial Auditorium. Can we put butts in chairs? Will they (the board) throw enough crumbs at the pickleball club/players to forget how Karen was treated? Is this simply a passing fad, or are those of us living here tired of the board doing as they please and will they be willing to make a stand?

 

I agree that we first need to see what the turn-out of the September meeting brings, but remember, Perception is Reality. If we can simply spread the word and educate enough Members and Clubs about the boards shenanigans' I believe the Members will begin to feel the same way we all do? Perhaps that will get the ball rolling to additional organizing which will eventually lead to a change in the bylaws?

Lots of good thoughts and ideas coming out on this blog that will hopefully turn into something tangible!

 

Now that's a scary thought! A board filled with retreads! That folks, we can't allow to ever happen!

 

Well said Carole.

Before i forget, the perfect storm (as stated in the Focus 2 short):
At the September meeting they are going to push for an increase in the PIF. Any bets on the number: $4000, $4500, or 5K large?

As an aside, Gene W (the possible retread replacement for Karen) was an advocate for it going to 5K years ago.

Wonder how well that will go over as they close amenities?

 

We have a lot of new readers and while i don't want to get off topic, there's a need for folks to understand how this all works. From the outset, DEVCO turned the rec centers over to the community, gave them ownership almost immediately. Golf was a wholly different animal. It wasn't until 1977/1978 where an agreement was struck where they got them for $10 and a cup of coffee. The community was always hesitant to taking ownership because they saw the potential for them to become a money pit. A second subset organization was set up of some board members and the agreement was in the documents they had to remain self-sufficient. Simply put the cost of golf was to be decided by the cost of operations.

The challenge came as the cost of golf went up, the amount of play went down. When the gm was hired she fired the golf staff and hired an outside contractor. After 3 or 4 years she fired the contractor and hired RCSC employees. It was simply about containing costs. Along the way though, there were some games played in the accounting and no one really knows where all of that lay. It's why i have repeatedly called for a forensic audit to see where the actual cost of a round of golf should be.

In 1999 the board passed the preservation and improvement fee (PIF). It started at $750 and has increased a half a dozen times to its current $3500. Been here for every debate and the lament from realtors it would kill sales, it never did. It did change who could afford to buy here but that's a topic for another day. From its inception through 2020 we have raised well over 100 million dollars and over the next 10, even at the current $3500 we will generate between $70 and $80 million more. So roughly 200 million dollars over the 30 years.

It gets worse because when we see accounting for how it has been distributed, it is less than pure. The RCSC shows golf course maintenance buildings under the facilities side. It's just accounting but the point is to make it look like they haven't spent that much on golf. Several other projects have come out of the annual budget that never got billed back to golf and all of it was to make it look like golf isn't that big of a drain.

We now know Viewpoint lake is looming as a major cost item. We know the water reduction plan that is set for 2025 (which may be adjusted given the states current water shortages) is going to force massive infusions into the courses or let the roughs turn to seed which will look like hell. The thing is, PIF was never intended to be used in the accounting for the cost for a round of golf, nor should it. PIF was established to enhance our aging amenities which includes golf courses.

The problem now is and will be shoveling a massively disproportionate amount of money towards golf. Roughly 12% of Sun City residents are golfers, it's all it has ever been. I've seen some utilization figures for some of the courses and they are staggeringly low. Sadly, it's these same figures that the board will use to close clubs and venues even though they admit they aren't perfect and admit they are flawed. The golf figures are spot on because the only way you get on a course is to pay to play.

That's why the motion to increase PIF couldn't come at a worse time for the board. In Sept they will stand before you and tell you they need to close stuff all the while they will be telling you to increase the buy-in fee to Sun City. Just understand this, much of that increase, like it has for the past 20 years, has been spent on golf. We were built as a golf course community, we will stay a golf course community, but at what cost?

 

Accounting for golf courses and other amenities in Sun City is no different than accounting practices nation wide.
It's called Creative Accounting and its purpose is simply a distraction from the truth.

Our golf courses are NOT self sustaining. Golfers pay way too little to use those courses while the overwhelming majority of Sun City pays for the golfers
to use the courses. Rates for those that use the courses must be increased many times over to even break even on the cost of maintenance on those courses.

Now here's question that I'm sure will bring a lot of suggestions and answers with no real and verifiable data to back them up.

"What do we do with the courses if we don't use them for golf? Where are the fudged statistics on how many people use the courses - daily, weekly, monthly, yearly?
If I sign up to play a round of golf, does that count as 1 person used the course even if I don't show up? If I only play 4 holes does that count as a full round of golf?
If I leave the course early is it counted as a full round of golf? What is the verifiable number of golfers using the courses as opposed to the total population of Sun City.
Should all Sun City be charged with supporting all the golfers or should the golfers be charged more for usage on an ongoing basis as costs continue to rise for maintenance?
If we don't use the courses for golf, what do we do with them?

Most importantly, where are the RCSC documents that state the golf courses will be used exclusively for golf in perpetuity? I haven't seen them. Have you?

Nothing is cast in stone forever. Will it require lawsuits to remedy the golf course situation? More then likely, raising the PIF is a knee jerk reaction on how to prepare for upcoming lawsuits. There are those who shy away from lawsuits, but without them to curtail Sun City upkeep of golf courses your pocket book will be drained in perpetuity to support unlimited access to golf courses for the few in Sun City.

The raising of the PIF is only the beginning. Get used to it. RCSC fees will also be increasing. Sun City will become a Resort location rather than a the place we all know of today.

The only way the masses of members needed to make changes required at board meetings and/or membership meetings to make change is if peoples pocketbooks are threatened.

Members/Cardholders - please show up at the first board meeting in September.

If you care about pickle ball, tennis, and other amenities at mountain view that have been removed, and more importantly (as this thread was titled) about the dismissal of Karen
Please, Please, Please show up at the board meeting.

 

Let's finish the cleanup in aisle 5 and if you don't like to read or know the history, just pass on by. John Meeker was the genius behind Sun City's ultimate success. The community started strong but by 1964 was dead in the water. Webb sent Meeker to be the guy to fix it or the age restricted community would stay south of Grand Ave. I could write a book on all the things he did, but the one that is pertinent to this discussion is this: From 1065 through build-out in 1978 John never quit asking the residents what the wanted. Polling, surveys and meetings were always at the core of Sun City's growth...and their success.

John desperately wanted the community to incorporate, the majority of the community wanted no part of it. He spent countless hours and resources to help people understand revenue sharing; they still wanted no part of it. In the end, he respected their opinions and their wishes because he knew it was their community, not his. As smart as he was he understood the importance of the owners making the decisions, not him or a handful of organizations pushing for it as well.

Suffice it to say, with the rewrite of our documents, that concept has been lost by the management team and the current board. Think not? I was at a Mountainview meeting years back and watched the second one on my computer. I don't recall a single member standing up asking that the lawn bowling, pickleball, mini-golf, tennis or horseshoes go away. In fact, just the opposite. Those attending had a wish list of ideas, none that wanted to lose their sporting venues.

Now, here we sit with a handful of folks (board and management) doing just the opposite. When the crowd asked who made those decisions there was a stunned look of silence. In fact, they might even have blamed Director Collins, i'd have to go back and look. Of course the simple answer was, "trust us." Let me think about that...as the next day they fired Karen.

It gets worse. For years now the long range planning committee has been working on an in-depth survey. They wanted to drill down and really see what mattered in the community. Some of the questions were bold and progressive. When the board saw them they became terrified and watered them down to simply ask; do you like Sun City? I saw both the before and after versions and i was stunned at how much they had changed it. Didn't really matter i guess because in the end they voted against sending it anyway.

I suspect by now you get the point: This community's success was because of their willingness to ask people what they wanted. They weren't afraid of the answers, neither the company nor the elected officers felt they were the end all be all, They knew and understood who the true owners of the community were and wanted their buy-in. May goodness, how far we have fallen.